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The Politics Thread - please direct all related posts here..

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Re: The Politics Thread - please direct all related posts here.. 

Post#641 » by HarthorneWingo » Sun Jan 30, 2011 6:37 am

King of Troy wrote:Why must Egypt have a democracy?

Let the people choose what they want, trying to force them into something they don't want will just cause this same **** to happen again. Or does no one remember how this happened in the first place? Does no one remember Iran?

If you refuse the will of the people, they will only overcome you in time, and all those who aided their oppression will be targets.



Absolutely. They should choose their own system. I guess that's, loosely, what I meant when I used the term.

That said, whatever they choose, it will be one in which they will have the right to vote, their votes will be counted, and those elected will be accountable to the people or they will end up like Mubarak.

I'm watching video of the people in Egypt being interviewed. These are regular, well-educated, middle class people who just want to be treated like human beings and have a voice in their government. And it great to watch them make this happen for themselves.
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Re: The Politics Thread - please direct all related posts here.. 

Post#642 » by HarthorneWingo » Sun Jan 30, 2011 7:36 am

Oh man. Israel must be shyting a brick. Mubarak was a key ally of both Israel and the U.S. ... which is probably why the U.S. has been so complicit with Mubarak in selling out the Egyptian people.
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Re: The Politics Thread - please direct all related posts here.. 

Post#643 » by GotItNow » Sun Jan 30, 2011 8:28 am

richardhutnik wrote:
richardhutnik wrote:
GotItNow wrote:I told you this was coming a long time ago. States can't afford to piss away money on ridiculous pensions. They should have reigned in those costs long ago but politicians keep buying the union vote. It's too easy for them to do, the costs aren't incurred for years long after they are out of office.

Public workers are getting paid more than private workers and that will come to a screeching halt. The downturn is the perfect opportunity for a restructuring.


YES! The government should implement a version of indentured servitude, where citizens are FORCED to do government jobs for 20 years, and then are let go into the market. No one is to get any pension at all. And by, having it work like a draft, you don't need to pay any form of retirement. If you don't like it, you lose your citizenship and get deported to an island in the south Pacific.

- Rich




My job got stolen years ago. Last one was with IBM as a contractor. They consolidated their operations with Colorado and closed down the Poughkeepsie office. The manager of the command center killed himself when it was let go.

In regards to the above situation, it definitely would be an improvement over what I have now, which consists of being involved with a non-profit I founded, working to get a spin off organization, and also being a support manager for a paranormal investigation agency, all of which don't pay a single cent of time, but hey MAYBE they will translate into a job. Beyond this, I am likely going to have to push for disability in order to get money coming in, with myself still having prolonged leg and back issues that limit me to laying on my back to do anything, like writing this.

Reality is this: You apparently have a limit set of perspective on the nature of things, that doesn't factor in a lot of things, and if implemented, could result in a total collapse.

- Rich


Richard, look at what I said, then take a real good look at your responses. Then read the following:

Histrionic personality disorder

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histrionic_personality_disorder

Histrionic personality disorder (HPD) is defined by the American Psychiatric Association as a personality disorder characterized by a pattern of excessive emotionality and attention-seeking, including an excessive need for approval and inappropriate seductiveness, usually beginning in early adulthood. These individuals are lively, dramatic, enthusiastic, and flirtatious.

......

They often fail to see their own personal situation realistically, instead tending to dramatize and exaggerate their difficulties. They may go through frequent job changes, as they become easily bored and have trouble dealing with frustration


I'm sure your rant made you feel better, but really...the ridiculous pensions have to go. The taxpayers can't afford to give that kind of money away. When times were good it was pretty much swept under the rug. Now that states are hurting for revenue and unable to squeeze the hurting populace any more much needed cost cutting will be done. The clock is ticking. There's no doubt about it.
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Re: The Politics Thread - please direct all related posts here.. 

Post#644 » by GotItNow » Sun Jan 30, 2011 8:36 am

Fascinating reports RtP. Hope everything works out well.
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Re: The Politics Thread - please direct all related posts here.. 

Post#645 » by duetta » Sun Jan 30, 2011 12:20 pm

Almost half Nassau's cops got more than $150G

Nearly half of Nassau County's 2,400-member police force collected more than $150,000 last year, according to county records.

High overtime costs for some of the 1,103 active and retiring officers and large retirement packages for others helped boost earnings, statistics provided to Newsday by the county comptroller show.

The earnings revelations come at a time when the cost of public union contracts, particularly police pacts, has come under intense scrutiny as municipalities struggle to cope with recession-lowered revenues.


http://www.newsday.com/long-island/nass ... -1.2645292
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Re: The Politics Thread - please direct all related posts here.. 

Post#646 » by richardhutnik » Sun Jan 30, 2011 1:09 pm

HawthorneWingo wrote:Not to draw attention away from all that is going on in Egypt (and we wish that the family of our good friend here is kept safe), but if you missed this weeks episode of Bill Maher's New Rules segment on "NFL Socialism," you should watch it.

http://realtimewithbillmaher.blogspot.c ... 12811.html


And with that, the last bit of Libertarianism that Bill Maher had dies. Interesting video though.

- Rich
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Re: The Politics Thread - please direct all related posts here.. 

Post#647 » by richardhutnik » Sun Jan 30, 2011 1:19 pm

GotItNow wrote:I'm sure your rant made you feel better, but really...the ridiculous pensions have to go. The taxpayers can't afford to give that kind of money away. When times were good it was pretty much swept under the rug. Now that states are hurting for revenue and unable to squeeze the hurting populace any more much needed cost cutting will be done. The clock is ticking. There's no doubt about it.


I deleted your attempt at psychoanalysis. Unless you happened to have a trained professional background in the area, or at least showed you read several books on the subject, and have a moderate degree of knowledge, your assessment is merely a reaching insult on your part to score points in a debate. It really adds nothing to the discussion when that is done.

Of course issues need to be dealt with, and adjustments need to be made. But do you realize the net impact of doing away with pensions, which used to be the norm? The end result is a race to the bottom. What do you think will happen to the unemployment rate if no one retires, which is the net result of a lack of pensions or retirement? Well, I guess we get an entirely new pool of people that are lazy. I have been informed that if you aren't working, it is because you are lazy.

- Rich
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Re: The Politics Thread - please direct all related posts here.. 

Post#648 » by Im Coming Home » Sun Jan 30, 2011 2:24 pm

Live Egyptian protests... its getting crazy. They are flying jets really low, and really fast to scare the protesters and by breaking the sound barrier really low.

http://english.aljazeera.net/watch_now/
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Re: The Politics Thread - please direct all related posts here.. 

Post#649 » by GotItNow » Sun Jan 30, 2011 3:12 pm

richardhutnik wrote:
GotItNow wrote:I'm sure your rant made you feel better, but really...the ridiculous pensions have to go. The taxpayers can't afford to give that kind of money away. When times were good it was pretty much swept under the rug. Now that states are hurting for revenue and unable to squeeze the hurting populace any more much needed cost cutting will be done. The clock is ticking. There's no doubt about it.


I deleted your attempt at psychoanalysis. Unless you happened to have a trained professional background in the area, or at least showed you read several books on the subject, and have a moderate degree of knowledge, your assessment is merely a reaching insult on your part to score points in a debate. It really adds nothing to the discussion when that is done.

Of course issues need to be dealt with, and adjustments need to be made. But do you realize the net impact of doing away with pensions, which used to be the norm? The end result is a race to the bottom. What do you think will happen to the unemployment rate if no one retires, which is the net result of a lack of pensions or retirement? Well, I guess we get an entirely new pool of people that are lazy. I have been informed that if you aren't working, it is because you are lazy.

- Rich


Richard fair enough on the deleted part. You got to understand though, when you make posts that meander everywhere except related to what I said you don't really give me a way to address it. I'm not going to respond seriously to an indentured servitude rant when I'm talking about revenue shortages and the disparity between public and private pay for the same type of work.

Anyway, on to your second paragraph. The race to the bottom was started a long time ago. I don't know what to do about it, private pay is being sucked dry with outsourcing/globalism. It's tempting and reasonable to pin that on the Republicans but really the Democrats don't seem to have a problem with it. Now there's a huge imbalance between public and private pay and the taxpayer isn't going to stand for it.

When talk of globalism first started I thought it sounded good. Increased competition leads to cheaper and better products. Now I see the effects here at home. Sure i can buy cheaper stuff at Walmart but when i hear talk of a lot of these jobs not ever coming back I have to question what the heck is going on here? What's the plan to help the citizens of this country?

I see the diminishing benefits for the private worker, the coming reduction in public pay...and the continued ignoring of our immigration laws as all part of the same plan...reduce U.S. labor costs. They not only outsource all the jobs they can for the ones they can't they ignore border control to allow the U.S. worker to be undercut here in the states. Then they get Republicans and Democrats arguing back and forth over 1) free trade FTW! annnnnd 2) Why do you hate brown people?

The plan is ingenious really. Get Republican leaning voters arguing for more free trade slitting there own throat and Democrat leaning voters arguing for more immigrants slitting their own throat. Annnnd they both go for it with such gusto! All the corporations have to do is sit back and enjoy the show.
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Re: The Politics Thread - please direct all related posts here.. 

Post#650 » by richardhutnik » Sun Jan 30, 2011 4:09 pm

GotItNow wrote:
I see the diminishing benefits for the private worker, the coming reduction in public pay...and the continued ignoring of our immigration laws as all part of the same plan...reduce U.S. labor costs. They not only outsource all the jobs they can for the ones they can't they ignore border control to allow the U.S. worker to be undercut here in the states. Then they get Republicans and Democrats arguing back and forth over 1) free trade FTW! annnnnd 2) Why do you hate brown people?

The plan is ingenious really. Get Republican leaning voters arguing for more free trade slitting there own throat and Democrat leaning voters arguing for more immigrants slitting their own throat. Annnnd they both go for it with such gusto! All the corporations have to do is sit back and enjoy the show.


I had to figure out where to shorten this. It is about the negative impact of globalization. Globalization has been going on for centuries now. Unless people have some sort of national pride, or some sort of group cohesion, then globalization continues, undermining social groups and their values. Apparently some worship free markets as the end all, and will have it supposed to work out in the end. Well, it really isn't free for one thing. It seems like people favor free trade until it goes against them. Oh yes, and they will hold out the, "You can't opposed globalization, because you don't want another 1920s trade war, do you?" So, in short, America loses its manufacturing base to China. Hey, run trade deficits large enough, and China will buy America anyhow.

For myself, in light of the Arizona shooting, and the outbreak of partisan knee-jerk reactions, where the goal was to score partisan points (liberal saying Tea Party, and right wing firing back) has had me wanting to avoid personal attacks, and scoring partisan points to win at someone else's expense immensely. I have an interest now in trying to build agreement so you have larger numbers to help turn the tide. I think there needs to be reaching common ground, and hanging together, or people will end up hanging alone.

Anyhow, you are right about the plan. Basically, it is to get people emotionally charged up so they end up railing against their own interests. This goes from immigration and "free trade" (American subsidies to farmers likely killed off the Mexican farmers and drove them to migrate north), to other things like blaming everything on "special interests" (meaning citizens getting together are evil) to blaming unions (workers ability to get together to negotiate for better benefits and limit outsourcing) to tort reform (so you can't really use the courts to crack down on corporate excess. In all these, there are reasons to have concern about all these, but the emotional spin I have problems with. Oh yes, and better spin Tea Party as totally evil, so they get shut out. I did mention unions and so on, to show that these have historically been tools used by the non-elite to try to get more.

Who wins in this? Well the few on top who end up trying to shape the world into a utopia of their making. This utopia will crush millions under foot. But hey, there isn't win without sacrifice, is there? These few go from Murdock to Soros, to anyone else I haven't mentioned.

- Rich
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Re: The Politics Thread - please direct all related posts here.. 

Post#651 » by richardhutnik » Sun Jan 30, 2011 4:26 pm

Pakistan is having issues also. As much as the USA has partisan issues, things aren't where things are with Pakistan and the Taliban:
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/0 ... tml?hpt=C2

- Rich
"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - G. Marx
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Re: The Politics Thread - please direct all related posts here.. 

Post#652 » by GotItNow » Sun Jan 30, 2011 4:57 pm

richardhutnik wrote:
GotItNow wrote:
I see the diminishing benefits for the private worker, the coming reduction in public pay...and the continued ignoring of our immigration laws as all part of the same plan...reduce U.S. labor costs. They not only outsource all the jobs they can for the ones they can't they ignore border control to allow the U.S. worker to be undercut here in the states. Then they get Republicans and Democrats arguing back and forth over 1) free trade FTW! annnnnd 2) Why do you hate brown people?

The plan is ingenious really. Get Republican leaning voters arguing for more free trade slitting there own throat and Democrat leaning voters arguing for more immigrants slitting their own throat. Annnnd they both go for it with such gusto! All the corporations have to do is sit back and enjoy the show.


I had to figure out where to shorten this. It is about the negative impact of globalization. Globalization has been going on for centuries now. Unless people have some sort of national pride, or some sort of group cohesion, then globalization continues, undermining social groups and their values. Apparently some worship free markets as the end all, and will have it supposed to work out in the end. Well, it really isn't free for one thing. It seems like people favor free trade until it goes against them. Oh yes, and they will hold out the, "You can't opposed globalization, because you don't want another 1920s trade war, do you?" So, in short, America loses its manufacturing base to China. Hey, run trade deficits large enough, and China will buy America anyhow.

For myself, in light of the Arizona shooting, and the outbreak of partisan knee-jerk reactions, where the goal was to score partisan points (liberal saying Tea Party, and right wing firing back) has had me wanting to avoid personal attacks, and scoring partisan points to win at someone else's expense immensely. I have an interest now in trying to build agreement so you have larger numbers to help turn the tide. I think there needs to be reaching common ground, and hanging together, or people will end up hanging alone.

Anyhow, you are right about the plan. Basically, it is to get people emotionally charged up so they end up railing against their own interests. This goes from immigration and "free trade" (American subsidies to farmers likely killed off the Mexican farmers and drove them to migrate north), to other things like blaming everything on "special interests" (meaning citizens getting together are evil) to blaming unions (workers ability to get together to negotiate for better benefits and limit outsourcing) to tort reform (so you can't really use the courts to crack down on corporate excess. In all these, there are reasons to have concern about all these, but the emotional spin I have problems with. Oh yes, and better spin Tea Party as totally evil, so they get shut out. I did mention unions and so on, to show that these have historically been tools used by the non-elite to try to get more.

Who wins in this? Well the few on top who end up trying to shape the world into a utopia of their making. This utopia will crush millions under foot. But hey, there isn't win without sacrifice, is there? These few go from Murdock to Soros, to anyone else I haven't mentioned.

- Rich

Very true. Not sure what to do about it. People are easily led as we can see and that's not really talking bad about them either. Who has time to follow everything or think of the big picture? Hit a few hot buttons and their critical thinking ability is bypassed quickly. Most are consumed with just trying to survive.

I think more and more though people are starting to realize they are getting played even if they don't quite know how. Lay a few things out for them and it starts to snap into view. We are all victims of all the programming that's been done to get us to move in certain ways and a lot of that prevents us from having a better perception on what's really going on. Like if it fits a certain category it doesn't get thought deeply about it gets shunted into a "those guys are bad, we are good." Just knee jerk reaction, a no thinking zone. It's by design and it's effective.
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Re: The Politics Thread - please direct all related posts here.. 

Post#653 » by richardhutnik » Sun Jan 30, 2011 6:14 pm

GotItNow wrote:
richardhutnik wrote:Who wins in this? Well the few on top who end up trying to shape the world into a utopia of their making. This utopia will crush millions under foot. But hey, there isn't win without sacrifice, is there? These few go from Murdock to Soros, to anyone else I haven't mentioned.

- Rich


Very true. Not sure what to do about it. People are easily led as we can see and that's not really talking bad about them either. Who has time to follow everything or think of the big picture? Hit a few hot buttons and their critical thinking ability is bypassed quickly. Most are consumed with just trying to survive.

I think more and more though people are starting to realize they are getting played even if they don't quite know how. Lay a few things out for them and it starts to snap into view. We are all victims of all the programming that's been done to get us to move in certain ways and a lot of that prevents us from having a better perception on what's really going on. Like if it fits a certain category it doesn't get thought deeply about it gets shunted into a "those guys are bad, we are good." Just knee jerk reaction, a no thinking zone. It's by design and it's effective.


I think an important thing would be to learn more to be neighbors, and try to find ways to mutual support, working outside of Washington, to solve problems. For example, I have a number of things I need to get done, and can use help with. I say working under the radar would help.

Examples of areas in economic and social I am working on:
* Development of alternate currency, and means of financing that get things out of the banking system. I am looking into Bitcoin. I would also like to help work on economic theories I have, and implement solutions.
* Employment network, to enable people to become viable. A focus of that is working with churches.
* Development of a Thinkubator, which is like a cross between a think tank and an incubator.
* Trying to find Tea Party folk not obsessed with Glenn Beck and now focusing their time on storing a year's supply of food, because the end is near and Obama will "shut the Internet down at any moment". Might as well shoot me now, if the end is that close. I do want to work with folks who can work in the current system to get ahead and build something that will last beyond it. I need to get ahead normally before I can deal with the end of the world.

Project wise on a more personal level is the development of a PGA for Pacman, and IAGO. I am also doing the usual job hunting, but think the normal rules won't fly. I also have health concerns.

Personally, I am tired of the fending alone and hoping for a miracle. My life doesn't change if I am right about how much things stink, and others are to blame.

- Rich
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Re: The Politics Thread - please direct all related posts here.. 

Post#654 » by mugzi » Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:49 am

Is it time to expand the Fairness Doctrine?
Selwyn Duke


In keeping with the demagogue's credo "Never let a good tragedy go to waste," some among us are extracting as much mileage from the Jared Loughner massacre as they can. It is being used to raise money and reduce freedom, with the latter amounting to calls for gun and speech control. And among these calls is the proposal to resurrect the Fairness Doctrine (FD).

The basic idea behind the legislation is that if a radio station airs some controversial opinion, time must be provided for the "other side." And quite coincidentally, I'm sure, this is only to be applied to talk radio, an arena in which the "other side" happens to be the left side.

Conservatives, of course, are opposed to this, and, with their control of Congress, the FD won't emerge from that chamber. But they are missing a grand opportunity, a chance to exhibit that much ballyhooed thing called bi-partisanship. I suggest that we don't have to fight over the FD, as we can come together over the following proposal: Not only reinstitute the legislation – expand it.

Here's how it would work: We'll apply the doctrine not only to radio but newspapers, television and the Internet as well. Remember that when the FD was first introduced in 1949, TV was in its infancy and so was Al Gore (the Internet would have to wait). But while radio was the big thing back then, it has now been eclipsed by the TV and the Web, which together inform – and misinform – many more minds than radio does (note: "Talk" is the format of only three percent of radio stations nationwide). And isn't it preposterous to assert that only one form of media can peddle unbalanced information? Fairness for all, I say.

And here's how this would work on the ground. Imagine that a newspaper wanted to print a hit piece on Sarah Palin or, as is the The New York Times' wont, frequently feature a story on a sex crime committed by a Catholic priest (while ignoring the corresponding scandal in the government-school system). Well, as the case may be, Palin, or the Catholic League, Opus Dei, or the local diocese, would be afforded equal time to respond.

But that's just the beginning. As the left likes to say, everyone has a "perspective." And as the left will also emphasize, it isn't enough to focus on the perspectives; we must focus on people. We're told we must ensure that women and minorities aren't underrepresented in the media, otherwise the groups from which they're drawn will get short shrift. Likewise, the other side will never get equal time as long as the media is dominated by one side. So, by all means, institute policy that will force radio stations to hire Airhead America types, but the same forces must be brought to bear on the mainstream media. After all, with 89 percent of Washington journalists voting for Bill Clinton in 1992, 92 percent supporting him in 1996 and with Democrat reporters outnumbering Republican ones by a 3-to-1 margin even beyond the beltway, discrimination obviously reigns in the media.

What is the remedy? It isn't enough to merely ensure that 50 percent of reporters and pundits are Republicans. Remember that while 40 percent of Americans describe themselves as conservative, only 21 percent self-identify as liberal. Moreover, leftists have long emphasized the principle of "proportionality" (such as when they want to apply it to Title IX). Thus, I'm sure they will agree that our media contingents should reflect the ideological composition of the wider population. And this wouldn't be hard to achieve, either. For instance, all a paper such as The New York Times would have to do is fire columnists such as Paul Krugman and Nicholas Kristof in favor of Selwyn Duke and S.L. Duke.

Some will say this is silly, as there is no comparison between brash, hyperbolic radio men and the plodding press corps. And they're right – there's no comparison.

The fellow who hides his bias is much more to be feared.

I once explained why using the analogy of the barker and the shill, writing:

[The barker and the shill] were carnival employees who both worked to entice customers into entering the mysterious realm of the sideshow, only, their methods were very different. The barker – the correct terminology is the 'talker' – was a P.T. Barnum-like character, a bold salesman who sang the praises of the exhibits. Although he was given to the hyperbole of marketing, he made no bones about his agenda: He wanted your business.

The shill was a very different animal. His job was to stand amidst the crowd and pose as one of their number; he would then feign awe as he claimed to have seen the show and that it was truly a jaw-dropping experience. He was trading on his illusion of impartiality, knowing it lent him a capacity to convince that eluded the talker with his obvious agenda.

… [Now] [r]adio hosts are the talkers; they wear their banners openly as they proclaim who and what they are. …You know what they're sellin' and if you're buyin'.

The mainstream media, however, is a shill. …They masquerade as impartial purveyors of information, almost-automatons who, like Joe Friday, are just interested in the facts, ma'am. …and we are to believe God graced them with a singular ability to render facts uncolored by personal perspective.

In reality, though, the Shill Media are about as impartial as an Imam in a comparative religion class.

… [And] [t]he Shill Media are infinitely more dangerous because of their illusion of impartiality. There's a reason why we trust what Consumer Reports says about Buick a lot more than what Buick says about Buick. And if we discovered that Buick's marketing arm was masquerading as a consumer advocacy magazine, we'd want the subterfuge revealed. Remember, brainwashing is only effective if you're not aware it's occurring.

The reality is that radio talk-show hosts are targeted partially because they commit a sin of which the mainstream media is rarely guilty.

They're honest about what they are.

This is why I'm sure the Left will join me in promoting a truly fair Fairness Doctrine; call it FD 2.0. I mean, you folks on the left actually want fairness, right? After all, applying it only to a medium dominated by a particular ideology would be as crazy as, oh, I don't know, scrutinizing only counties dominated by a particular ideology during a vote recount.

Then again, we could take a different route. We could understand that touting the importance of the "other side" reflects a naïve dualist mindset, the idea that the world consists of but two equal sides, right and left, when it actually consists of two unequal categories, right and wrong. Why, taking our relativistic, modern, everything-is-perspective, other-side notion to its logical conclusion, we could hear God tell us that Satan is evil and then broadcast, "Tune it at 8:00 PM for the Devil's response."

Moreover, there is a reason why we say the Truth but a lie: "Wrong" is a category encompassing many lies. No matter how much you mandate "equal time," there isn't enough time to give every "side" a hearing. Will making room for the liberal or conservative side satisfy the communists or Nazis? There is only one side we should be interested in: the eternal one.

Of course, some will ask, in grand relativistic style, "Who will decide what's Truth!?" That is the question, isn't it? In answering, consider that, despite slavery being one of the world's oldest and most widespread practices, we don't hear pro-slavery advocates on the radio. This isn't because government banned such commentary but because the marketplace of ideas did.

This is democracy in action: Millions of consumers "voting" on what ideas will hold office in media nationwide through their use of radio tuners, remotes, computer mouse and money. In contrast, those advocating government control would replace these "elections" with rule by oligarchic decree, placing judgments about what should be broadcast in the hands of a small group of bureaucrats. It is profoundly undemocratic.

Is this to say that the market is an infallible purveyor of Truth? Not at all. Mankind has always toddled along in that regard, often stumbling, sometimes falling. But I'll sooner trust the common man to ferret out common sense than I would the entire Oxford philosophy department.

It's ironic that the people who recoil at historically present censorship – of obscene images, for instance – advocate the 1984 variety. They have things exactly backwards: Censorship of unpopular political, social and religious commentary is the very thing the First Amendment was designed to forestall. And what is "fair" anyway? It isn't to give both godly and devilish ideas equal time. It is to separate Truth from lies and hope that, one day, it will have all the time.
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Re: The Politics Thread - please direct all related posts here.. 

Post#655 » by Remember the Past » Mon Jan 31, 2011 4:04 am

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/3 ... 15984.html

DETROIT — A 63-year-old Southern California man who was traveling with explosives in his vehicle with the intention of blowing up one of the nation's largest mosques where mourners had gathered for a funeral was arrested in the Detroit suburb of Dearborn, Michigan authorities said Sunday.

Dearborn police said Roger Stockham was arraigned Wednesday on one count of making a false report or threat of terrorism and one count of possessing explosives with an unlawful intent. Stockham had a large but undisclosed quantity of class-C fireworks including M-80s, which are outlawed in Michigan, Chief Ronald Haddad said.

Haddad said Stockham was arrested Monday evening without incident in the parking lot of Islamic Center of America, while a large group was gathered inside. He said police received a 911 call from a resident.
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Re: The Politics Thread - please direct all related posts here.. 

Post#656 » by mugzi » Mon Jan 31, 2011 4:12 am

Apparently the democratic smear machine Media Matters for America didnt like this little story.

As Egypt Burns, Obama and News Media Party Hearty Saturday Night
Sunday, January 30, 2011 | Kristinn
Posted on Sun Jan 30 2011 10:42:11 GMT-0500 (Eastern Standard Time) by kristinn

As thirty years of United States Middle East strategy teeters on collapse, Barack Obama spent Saturday night at a going away party for David Axelrod who is leaving the administration to set up Obama's reelection campaign in Chicago. The party was held at the Dupont Circle condo of former Obama aide Linda Douglass.

Douglass, who is now with the National Journal, played host to a gathering of cabinet secretaries including Arne Duncan (Education), Timothy Geithner (Treasury) and Steven Chu (Energy) and prominent reporters including Major Garrett (National Journal), Jake Tapper (ABC), Chuck Todd (NBC) and John Harwood (CNBC/New York Times).

Obama spent nearly two hours at the party.

Greta Van Sustern appears to be the only one in the media to report on Obama's party with her colleagues. Were it not for her posting the pool reports by the National Journal's Rebecca Kaplan at Fox News' GretaWire, the public would not know that Obama spent Saturday night partying with the media while Egypt burns.



Media Matters Accuses Free Republic of Anti-Obama "Right-Wing Media Smear Machine"
Sunday, January 30,2011 | Kristinn
Posted on Sun Jan 30 2011 20:57:38 GMT-0500 (Eastern Standard Time) by kristinn

Democratic Party front group Media Matters for America this afternoon accused Free Republic of being an instigator of the "Right-Wing Media Smear Machine" because of an article posted at Free Republic this morning about Barack Obama spending Saturday night partying with reporters from the White House press corps rather than burning the midnight oil keeping tabs on the crisis in Egypt. The article was titled, "As Egypt Burns, Obama and News Media Party Hearty Saturday Night." Media Matters calls criticism of Obama's partying while Egypt burns as a "particularly hollow smear."

Media Matters was upset that Jim Hoft picked up the Free Republic article for a piece at Gateway Pundit and that Hoft's piece was subsequently picked up by Fox Nation. In fact, it's the lead, banner story at Fox Nation tonight with over 1200 comments. The Fox Nation article updated its headline to read "As Egypt Burns...Obama Parties", based on Hoft's headline, "As Egypt Burns...Obama Parties, Watches B-ball" that was based on the Free Republic headline.

Making things worse for Media Matters was that the Drudge Report picked up a piece from the site White House Dossier published Sunday afternoon (an hour after the FR article) about Obama's night out partying. That article was headlined "While Cairo Burns, Obama Parties."

The Free Republic article noted that Greta Van Sustern appeared to be the only reporter who reported about the presidential party. Further research showed Politico had a short article published Saturday night that nixed mentioning that reporters were partying with Obama. Media Bistro also posted about Obama partying, even correcting the pool report that Linda Douglass works for Atlantic Media, not the National Journal as the pool reported.
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Re: The Politics Thread - please direct all related posts here.. 

Post#657 » by mugzi » Mon Jan 31, 2011 4:16 am

Apparently there is a distinct possibility that the Muslim Brotherhood could take power in Egypt, whats your thoughts on this Remember the Past?


Inside The Egyptian Revolution...
Joel C. Rosenberg's Blog ^ | January 30, 2011 | Joel C. Rosenberg


>> BREAKING SUNDAY NIGHT: Egypt’s Muslim Brotherhood eyes unity gov’t without Mubarak

In the past several days, the dynamic of the protests in Egypt has changed rapidly, and not for the better. What started out as a genuine and positive pro-freedom movement is being steadily coopted by the Muslim Brotherhood and other violent and extremist forces. There is now a growing risk that the overthrow of the Mubarak regime could lead either to an authoritarian military regime, or a Radical Islamist regime. We must pray neither scenario comes to pass. The people of Egypt would be further oppressed. The U.S., Israel and the West would be endangered. Bottom line: This is a very complex and fast-moving crisis, and it could get much worse.

Let me explain and put the situation in some context.

In my 2009 non-fiction book Inside The Revolution: Why the followers of Jihad, Jefferson and Jesus are battling to dominate the Middle East and take over the world, I outlined a range of players in the region, who they are and what they want:

The Radicals are extremist Muslims who want to overthrow every regime from North Africa to the Middle East to Central Asia and replace them with Islamist dictatorships who believe that “Islam is the answer and jihad is the way.” These include groups such as al Qaeda, Iranian Twelvers, Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas, Hezbollah, and the like.

The Reformers are moderate Muslims who say, “Islam is the answer, but jihad is not the way; we need more freedom, more openness, more protection of human rights and civil rights, free elections, free markets, and the creation of full-blown Jeffersonian democracies, if at all possible.” In this group historically have been Kemal Mustafa Ataturk (the founder of modern, democratic Turkey; though sadly Turkey is now moving away from his model); Egyptian President Anwar Sadat (who made peace with Israel but was then assassinated by Radicals); Jordanian Kings Hussein (the father, who made peace with Israel and initiated a democratically elected parliament while retaining his authority as monarch) and Abdullah II (the son and current monarch who has been advancing his father’s reforms incrementally); Morrocan King Mohammed VI; the current leaders of Iraq such as President Jalal Talabani and Nouri al-Maliki; and the popular pro-democracy movement in Iran that we saw take to the streets by the millions last summer)

The Revivalists are former Muslims who say, “Islam is not the answer, jihad is not the way, Jesus is the way — and the only way for our part of the world to move forward and make real and lasting social, economic and spiritual progress is to skip back in our history before Islam and revive what we once had: first century, New Testament, Biblical Christianity.” These followers of Jesus Christ in the Islamic world tend to be apolitical and are focused on evangelism, discipleship, church planting, pastor training and spiritual renewal. By using dual strategies of an air war (satellite TV, radio and the Internet) and a ground war (especially the house church movement), their numbers have swelled into the millions since 1979, despite widespread (and recently intensifying) persecution. I profile a number of their leaders in the book, though few of them are known by name in the West.

These first three are the revolutionary forces in the region, people and movements who advocate and push for dramatic, sweeping change.

Then there is another set of important players:

The Resisters tend to be secular Arab nationalist leaders who oppose significant change of almost any kind. They may be Muslims but they certainly aren’t revolutionaries. They don’t want to build an Islamic empire. They want to build their own empires. They want to hold onto the power, wealth and prestige that they currently have, and gain more if they can. They strongly oppose revolutionary movements of all kinds. Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak is a classic Resister. So are leaders like Syrian President Bashar Assad, Libyan leader Moammar Ghadaffi, the leaders of Saudi Arabia, and so forth. Previously, Saddam Hussein fell into this camp.

The Reticent tend to be weak-willed Arab leaders who seem constantly pulled in opposite directions. They don’t have strong convictions. At times they seem to want peace with Israel, for example, and even a modicum of political or social reform, but then other forces push back at them and they waffle or change their tune. At the moment, Palestinian Chairman Mahmoud Abbas is the best example of a Reticent leader. He has been offered historic deals by recent Israeli Prime Ministers to make peace and create a Palestinian state and have dramatic economic change and growth. He has occassionally shown real interest in positive change, but has never had the courage to say “yes.”

Finally, and most importantly, are the Rank-and-File — these are the billion-plus everyday Muslims citizens who work hard, play by the rules, are trying to find decent jobs to feed and educate their families. They aren’t revolutionaries. They long for more freedom and opportunity, but mainly they keep their heads down and try not to be noticed and not be interfered with. They are the audience to which the revolutionaries are playing. They are watching the battle between the Radicals and the Reformers, and they are increasingly curious about the message of the Revivalists. And some of them are making their move and joining one of the revolutionary movements.

That said, let’s focus again on the crisis at hand. What we are witnessing in Egypt is an historic clash between true Reformer Muslims who want free elections and free markets, and Radical Muslims who want to use the protests to overthrow the Mubarak regime and install a violent, extremist Islamist government. The Revivalists in Egypt are, for the most part, staying underground. True to their nature, they are remaining apolitical and are devoting themselves to much prayer for the future of their country and the souls of their friends and neighbors.

For the first first few days of last week, most of the initial protestors on the streets of Egypt were peaceful, respectful, somewhat educated, and poor to middle class. I believe they were genuinely calling for an end to the Mubarak regime’s corruption and authoritarian rule in order to achieve more freedom, more opportunity, a better economy, more and better jobs, and a democratic government that would respect and protect their human rights and civil rights and set them free from the stagnant, stultified, oppressive Egyptian system they have suffered under for so long.

However, beginning on Thursday and accelerating throughout the day on Friday, the situation began to change dramatically.

The leaders of the Muslim Brotherhood (which began in Egypt in the 1920) had initially been caught off guard by sudden and intense rise of the protests and had not been involved in planning or developing these protests. But sensing an opportunity, they decided to move decisively and try to coopt the movement for their own purposes. They mobilized their followers throughout the country and told them to take to the streets. That’s when the complexion of the protests took a turn for the worse, characterized by:

Violent attacks directed at the police – Agence France Presse reported on Saturday that an estimated 60 percent of Egyptian police stations have been set on fire

Rioting, instead of mere protesting The emergence of gangs on the streets wielding machetes and knives

Government office buildings being set on fire

Cars being set on fire

The looting of the Egyptian Museum, with vandals ripping the heads off of two ancient mummies

Looting of shops, businesses and homes

Muslim Brotherhood members escaping from prison –[see this article as well]

UPDATE: Some 8,000 prisoners escaped from a prison in the east of the country and one report said “prison guards have joined the protests allowing dozens of Muslim Brotherhood members to walk out of jail.”

A rising civilian death toll as the police have been forced to defend themselves and protect other citizens — as of Sunday, there were more than 100 people dead, and more than 2,000 wounded

These are not the actions of a true pro-freedom movement. Almost none of this happened last summer when millions of Iranians took to the streets to protest the fraudulent re-election of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. To the contrary, the Iranian people, to their great credit, initiated what was overwhelming a classic non-violent, principled protest movement against the Radical regime.

President Mubarak’s response to the protests has been badly overdone and typically authoritarian — shutting down the Internet, blocking social media like Facebook and Twitter, and now blocking even the Al Jazeera satellite TV network. What’s more, the police and army at times have been thuggish and brutal (though not always; their have been fascinating reports of policemen and soldiers embracing the protestors, encouraging them even).

So I find myself in a quandary. I strongly support the right of the Egyptian people to have free elections and free markets and true opportunity in the 21st century. What’s more, I want the Church to be free to share the gospel and win Muslims to faith in Jesus Christ, make disciples and plant new congregations without government oppression and without violent attacks by Radical Muslims. I do believe Mubarak has stayed too long. He has not responded to the yearning of the Egyptian people to be free. His day is coming to an end.

That said, however, I don’t want to see the Muslim Brotherhood win. For all of Mubarak’s sins, he is not a Radical. He doesn’t want to launch a jihad against the U.S., Israel or the West. He has maintained the peace treaty with Israel. He has worked to counter the Hamas movement in Gaza. He is strongly opposed to the Iranian nuclear weapons program and has worked closely with the West to counter it. The Obama administration needs to be careful to support positive change in Egypt and support human rights there, without cutting the legs out from underneath Mubarak precipitously, the way President Carter did to the Shah of Iran in 1979. The Shah had his many flaws, no question about it. But Carter’s actions helped trigger the Islamic Revolution and led to the rise of the Ayatollah Khomeini, the loss of an American ally, and the rise of a terror-exporting country that has gained in lethality ever since. We dare not make the same mistakes with Egypt.
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Re: The Politics Thread - please direct all related posts here.. 

Post#658 » by mugzi » Mon Jan 31, 2011 4:20 am

Remember the Past wrote:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/30/roger-stockham-arrested-explosives_n_815984.html

DETROIT — A 63-year-old Southern California man who was traveling with explosives in his vehicle with the intention of blowing up one of the nation's largest mosques where mourners had gathered for a funeral was arrested in the Detroit suburb of Dearborn, Michigan authorities said Sunday.

Dearborn police said Roger Stockham was arraigned Wednesday on one count of making a false report or threat of terrorism and one count of possessing explosives with an unlawful intent. Stockham had a large but undisclosed quantity of class-C fireworks including M-80s, which are outlawed in Michigan, Chief Ronald Haddad said.

Haddad said Stockham was arrested Monday evening without incident in the parking lot of Islamic Center of America, while a large group was gathered inside. He said police received a 911 call from a resident.


This could have been a very bad tragedy which could have led to more violence here in the states. Im glad this was stopped. But the article wasnt too specific about the explosives he was carrying. Anyone who knows about M80s knows they are not nearly powerful enough to bring down a building, even in bulk. So was there more to his stash then M80s? C4, dynamite, etc?
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Re: The Politics Thread - please direct all related posts here.. 

Post#659 » by Remember the Past » Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:22 am

About the Muslim Brotherhood, I doubt it. Egyptians are well aware of how non secular governments in the Middle East are viewed in western countries and don't want it to be like that. One of the reasons that the Army is so beloved is that they're very independent of any party and good to the people and people believe that really separates Egypt from the likes of Iraq and Iran. Egyptians like to look at themselves as sort of the leaders of the Arab world (Egypt has 25% of arabs in the world, take in more Palestinians that any other country, have more intellectuals than any other arab country like Ahmed Zewail), the more advanced society and the ones who have influence around the world and have close relationships with the west. The Muslim brotherhood has always had a following and they probably will continue to have a following but I doubt that they will get widespread support. Common sentiment in Egypt right now is that the Army is basically preparing to take over the country until things calm down and you bet the Army won't let the Muslim brotherhood take over or anything like that. I think there are maybe two ways that the Muslim brotherhood comes to power. One being if Mubarak goes to exile in Israel (that was a rumor yesterday and twitter went crazy with that btw). It is well known that he has a very close relationship with the Israeli government and if he goes to exile there, the people will just be ticked off to no end. The Muslim Brotherhood would probably then make some sort of a promise to attack Israel and would win. I doubt the U.S government would allow that to happen tho. I think the second scenario would be if Mubarak is overthrown and the U.S., England ect.. don't support the people which I doubt would happen. So I guess in conclusion, I think people are fearing the Muslim brotherhood a little too much to be honest. Also, I forgot to add, Egypt has a large Christian population (about 10%) and Muslims and Christians like each other and aren't separated or anything like that so I really doubt people want anything but a secular democracy right now.
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Re: The Politics Thread - please direct all related posts here.. 

Post#660 » by richardhutnik » Mon Jan 31, 2011 1:31 pm

I want to add also, on what I wrote above, that while I consider illegal immigration a problem, I don't make it out to be the end all and be all of all the employment problems. People who work in the computer industry are not replaced by illegal Mexicans coming in. To think of they jobs they have as employment of last resort also, is pushing it to. I believe there is part fear that they undermine both the emergency room and also the manual labor area, so that people who think that both are survival tools in event things go wrong, are concerned they would be gone.

So, on a personal level, I feel there are much greater pressing problems than those, and rather not blow it out of proportion as a distraction.

- Rich
"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - G. Marx

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