Official Turnovers Thread (BUMP)

LOBO 7 · Post #1 » by **LOBO 7** » Mon Jan 31, 2011 11:28 pm

Ok, so we all know TOs are one of this teams biggest problems.

We lead the league with 17.38 TOs per game. Middle of the pack is about 14.

http://www.nba.com/statistics/sortable_ ... nf=1&prd=1

Also, and more tellingly, we lead the league in opponents steals per game, at an astounding 9.43.

http://www.nba.com/statistics/sortable_ ... &prd=1#top

To put that number in perspective, from 1-28 teams give up between 6.02 and 7.89 steals to the opposition, a relatively small deviation. At 29, Golden State gives up 8.57, which becomes an outlier and is also very bad. Then, there is us. 9.43. 9.43 would be an outlier even if only the bottom 5 teams in the league were compared.

9.43 is more than half of our total 17.38 TOs per game. We are the ONLY team in the league where more than half of our total turnovers are steals for the opposition. The fact that we lead the league in both categories is obviously horrible.

So, it is not only the incessant turnovers that we commit, but the type of turnovers we commit. We don't just dribble the ball off our foot out of bounds. We DO do that, but more often than not we pass the ball to the other team, which is a lot worse. Passing the ball to the other team almost always leads directly to a fast break for the opposition, which is the single worst position to put your defense into.

Our defense is not fantastic. We lead the league in points allowed per game. But are we the worst defensive team in the league? We are also #1 in rebounds per game, #6 in blocks per game, and #11 in steals per game. In terms of FG% allowed by our opposition, a stat that more accurately represents our half-court defensive performance, we are #18 in the league, Not amazing, but not the worst in the league.

I'm usually not a big "stats guy" but I started looking at these numbers today, and I think they show that while we are not 100% atrocious on D, we are 100% or 110% atrocious when it comes to TOs. I think it will be interesting to keep an eye on our TO stats, our opponents steals stats, and our overall W-L record as this team develops, not only this year but into the future.

Here at RealGM, posters like to talk about things that their team does very well. Our team is better at any team in the league, by a wide margin, at committing many many ill-timed and unnecessary TOs that cripple the team. So, we've got an official turnovers thread.

cpfsf · Post #2 » by **cpfsf** » Mon Jan 31, 2011 11:37 pm

It's a little misleading because we run the fastest pace in the NBA, so the numbers will be a bit inflated, but that's only one reason why we're leading the pack. The other reason is that we're just a bad team. We lack playmakers, sometimes we play out of control, and we always seem to choke.

collin_k41 · Post #3 » by **collin_k41** » Tue Feb 1, 2011 12:43 am

Our horrid turnover numbers are definitely a team effort. A lot of guys on our team end up with 2-4 in a game and they all add up quick. From an outside perspective it seems as if it would take minimal amounts of effort to tighten the screws on our offense and reduce the turnover numbers.

Breakdown777 · Post #4 » by **Breakdown777** » Tue Feb 1, 2011 4:24 am

The staple of the "young team diet".

Post #5 » by **Klomp** » Tue Feb 1, 2011 6:26 am

Breakdown777 wrote:

The staple of the "young team diet".

Dang, you beat me to it...

LOBO 7 · Post #6 » by **LOBO 7** » Tue Feb 1, 2011 6:34 am

Klomp wrote:
Breakdown777 wrote:

The staple of the "young team diet".

Dang, you beat me to it...

Haha, yeah, I was gona put a photo in the OP, but I was thinking apple turnovers:

In basketball there's no such thing as good turnovers. Unless they are apple turnovers.

Mmmmm, apple turnovers.....

jade_hippo · Post #7 » by **jade_hippo** » Thu Feb 3, 2011 7:22 am

just taking a look back at our teams coaching history and how our teams have rated in the league with total TO's. Talent level obviously isn't even and pace of play wasn't taken into account here (I have been making a spreadsheet but so far pace doesn't seem to be a huge factor)

Musselman two full years 2nd and 1st
Jim Rodgers only full season finished 4th
Sidney Lowe in one partial and one whole seaosn 24th and 27th
Bill Blair's only whole season 25th
Flip in his first partial season finishs 27th, follows up next nine years with: 9, 1, 1, 4, 4, 4, 6, 2, 2
Dwane Casey's only full season 17th, in a season split with Whitman 21st
Randy Whittman: 21st in his season with Casey, 17th in his lone full season, and 17th in a season split with McHale
Rambis's only full season, dead last, and on pace to finish dead last again.

From my foggy memory a few things stand out:
Musselman had an awful record, but those teams came to play, I want to say we had the best record of any expansion team ever on an obviously low talent team.
Jim Rodgers I remember nothing of his era, same with Bill Blair
Casey's teams either never understood or bought into into his offensive system, and his rotations were awful which lead to his firing despite record
Witt's teams turned on him, they hated him with passion

thinktank · Post #8 » by **thinktank** » Thu Feb 3, 2011 4:39 pm

Awesome post, jade_hippo.

To me, this is what happens when you force a system on personnel that doesn't fit.

We've got the ball in the hands of players who aren't our point guards way too much. Darko is 12th worst in turnovers per 48. Beasley is in the bottom tenth of the league, too. And tese players are young and inexperienced!

Why can't we run more classic PnR stuff? (not double picks on each side at the top of the key, etc.) Why can't we run more wings off screens without the ball? Curls? When do you see a curl for chrissake? We've got guys who can shoot and I barely ever see them running off of screens. I see other teams swapping their wings along the baseline to the other side at blistering speeds. I never see us even try it.

I hate our offense with a passion. And our defense is bad, too.

A lot of signs point to Rambis.

Post #9 » by **Klomp** » Thu Feb 3, 2011 10:14 pm

Meanwhile, coach Kurt Rambis agreed that center Darko Milicic needed to address his recent rash of turnovers. The answer? Concentrating on a go-to move in the post, executing that move with confidence and balance, and stop trying to make the pretty pass. Milicic has turned the ball over a lot recently when help defense swats the ball away when he's dribbling into a move. Rambis said Darko needs to do a better job of identifying that double team and passing out of it.

http://www.startribune.com/sports/wolve ... 13894.html

Vindicater · Post #10 » by **Vindicater** » Thu Feb 3, 2011 11:28 pm

thinktank wrote:Awesome post, jade_hippo.

To me, this is what happens when you force a system on personnel that doesn't fit.

We've got the ball in the hands of players who aren't our point guards way too much. Darko is 12th worst in turnovers per 48. Beasley is in the bottom tenth of the league, too. And tese players are young and inexperienced!

Why can't we run more classic PnR stuff? (not double picks on each side at the top of the key, etc.) Why can't we run more wings off screens without the ball? Curls? When do you see a curl for chrissake? We've got guys who can shoot and I barely ever see them running off of screens. I see other teams swapping their wings along the baseline to the other side at blistering speeds. I never see us even try it.

I hate our offense with a passion. And our defense is bad, too.

A lot of signs point to Rambis.

Be careful about bad mouthing Rambis around this place... alot of people think he walks on water

AQuintus · Post #11 » by **AQuintus** » Fri Feb 4, 2011 12:24 am

cpfsf wrote:It's a little misleading because we run the fastest pace in the NBA, so the numbers will be a bit inflated, but that's only one reason why we're leading the pack. The other reason is that we're just a bad team. We lack playmakers, sometimes we play out of control, and we always seem to choke.

All of that plus the fact that we run a system based around consistently putting the ball into the hands of our most turnover prone player (Darko) and out of the hands of our Point Guards.

Edit: And apparently I should read the whole thread before responding.

LOBO 7 · Post #12 » by **LOBO 7** » Wed Feb 9, 2011 8:02 am

Over our last 4 games we are only averaging 13.25 TOs per game, down quite a bit from the 17.38 we were averaging on January 31. We are a .500 team over those same 4 games. :dontknow:

I have felt for a while now that our silly turnovers have been by far this team's biggest problem, and that if we could just have 3 or 4 less silly TOs a game we would have won a lot more games this year. Are we actually seeing some results?

Obviously, fewer TOs haven't been the only story. We have hit key shots and gotten key stops as well. But the lower TOs are certainly part of the story, as well as the timing of the TOs. In tonight's win over the Rockets I believe we had zero 4th quarter TOs, against the Hornets 9 of our 15 TOs were in the first quarter, then we cleaned it up and I don't remember any silly TOs in crunch time.

I guess we'll see if this is a trend or a fluke, but it has been encouraging.

LOBO 7 · Post #13 » by **LOBO 7** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 3:45 pm

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_N14qZzVOZI&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]

Alright I'm bumping this thread because TOs are going to be a major factor in our success this year, and it will be interesting to monitor our progress and look back on what Adelman said during training camp.

I don't think there is any way we average as many TOs as we did last year, but I could see it still being a major concern for us. I think Adelman will adjust in whatever ways necessary to limit the problem, even if that means that certain players "aren't allowed" to attempt certain passes as he says here. I would hope that if silly TOs are a problem in the beginning of the season that Adelman would simplify the offense and just run a lot of P'n'R with Rubio or Barea and let them find the open man. Either way, it will be interesting to see what happens...