[Camelo Thread Part 12] - Melo's list grows? pg. 50

[moocow007]

NY did not have to agree to a TPE with the Suns who also was losing their superstar player. They could have signed Amare as is and leave Phoenix in the cold. Walsh did the Phoenix GM a favor by agreeing to it. There's no guarantee that he would do so now nor that Melo wouldn't agree to what Amare, Lebron, Wade, Lee, Boozer, etc. all agreed to...which are 5 year deals none of which were for the sign-and-trade max.

I remembered this but I just wanted to find an article on it- here's an excerpt Moo:


But Stoudemire, who was introduced to The Big Apple as a member of the Knicks Thursday morning, soon made it clear that he was aiming to help Phoenix in any way after eight seasons with the Suns.

In fact, Knicks president of basketball operations Donnie Walsh said in the ESPN report that New York did the sign-and-trade as a “courtesy to Amare, who didn’t want to leave Phoenix with nothing.”

STAT also took an $800,000 pay cut his first season by opting for the sign-and-trade, which will give the Suns that same amount in added cap space this offseason.

Another gem of info for curious minds:

Read more: http://valleyofthesuns.com/2010/07/08/w ... z1CesfQ3Oy

Yep. Thanks providing backup.


Basically the assumption that Denver will at least be guaranteed to get a giant TPE is faulty. While its possible that Walsh would agree to do Denver a favor there is no guarantee (especially with how Denver has gone about this whole thing) they most certainly isnt also going to need to include anyone else (picks or any of the guys they'd be willing to give now). Absolutely there is a risk to waiting this into the summer.

But ok so say they get the exception (cause Melo wants to do Denver fans a favor). Which notable player(s) has been acquired via a TPE in recent memory (realizing the restrictions on how TPEs have been used)?

[K_ick_God]

lol ...



KevinClarkWSJ
Update from NJ: very small crowd lackadaisically booed Carmelo Anthony in pregame introductions. Um, I dont think he's gonna be sold on this

[Allan Houston]

The 6 or 7 Net fans there have been booing every time he touches the ball. I guess they didn't get the memo from ESPN that Prokhorov was just using negotiating tactics and they're going to hammer out a deal for Melo at the deadline.

[moocow007]

lol ...



KevinClarkWSJ
Update from NJ: very small crowd lackadaisically booed Carmelo Anthony in pregame introductions. Um, I dont think he's gonna be sold on this

They cant even heckle well?

[seren]

Yep. Thanks providing backup.


Basically the assumption that Denver will at least be guaranteed to get a giant TPE is faulty. While its possible that Walsh would agree to do Denver a favor there is no guarantee (especially with how Denver has gone about this whole thing) they most certainly isnt also going to need to include anyone else (picks or any of the guys they'd be willing to give now). Absolutely there is a risk to waiting this into the summer.

But ok so say they get the exception (cause Melo wants to do Denver fans a favor). Which notable player(s) has been acquired via a TPE in recent memory (realizing the restrictions on how TPEs have been used)?

Couple of things here:

1) Even with the new CBA, I would expect that the previous team would have the right to give that extra year. In the case of status quo, we are talking about a 5 yr/100 vs. 6 yr/120. This was irrelevant for Amare since Phoenix did not even make a 5 year guaranteed contract, but it is not hard to imagine Denver will make an offer like that to Melo. So by refusing a S&T, you are essentially telling Melo to screw himself if he wants more money with the additional year.

2) If we are going to S&T route in order to give Melo his additional year, there is no doubt that Denver will want something out of it, ie picks, cap relief via taking on Al etc. They won't be interested in the trade exception as Phoenix or Toronto did as they will be way under the cap anyways.

3) As well-documented, we will probably not have enough cap space to sign the max contract to begin with. We will have to make additional moves which means giving up assets.

So overall, I don't think waiting to the summer will mean we will be able to get a great deal in Melo.

[moocow007]

Yep. Thanks providing backup.


Basically the assumption that Denver will at least be guaranteed to get a giant TPE is faulty. While its possible that Walsh would agree to do Denver a favor there is no guarantee (especially with how Denver has gone about this whole thing) they most certainly isnt also going to need to include anyone else (picks or any of the guys they'd be willing to give now). Absolutely there is a risk to waiting this into the summer.

But ok so say they get the exception (cause Melo wants to do Denver fans a favor). Which notable player(s) has been acquired via a TPE in recent memory (realizing the restrictions on how TPEs have been used)?

Couple of things here:

1) Even with the new CBA, I would expect that the previous team would have the right to give that extra year. In the case of status quo, we are talking about a 5 yr/100 vs. 6 yr/120. This was irrelevant for Amare since Phoenix did not even make a 5 year guaranteed contract, but it is not hard to imagine Denver will make an offer like that to Melo. So by refusing a S&T, you are essentially telling Melo to screw himself if he wants more money with the additional year.

? There would have been no ramifications to Phoenix had the sign and trade that Walsh gifted them with was for 5/100 or 6/120. So your saying Stoudemire screwed himself? If traded Melo would actually be receiving a 4 year $80 million deal (the last year of his current contract plus the 3 year extension) and yet he appears eager for that so lets not assume hes going to screw himself.

2) If we are going to S&T route in order to give Melo his additional year, there is no doubt that Denver will want something out of it, ie picks, cap relief via taking on Al etc. They won't be interested in the trade exception as Phoenix or Toronto did as they will be way under the cap anyways.

And yet the ONLY team that got anything real for their top guys this past summer were the teams that were lucky to be dealing with teams that couldnt sign the player outright. Hows that? Did every other top player screw themselves by not getting that 6 th year at the sign and trade max? Or is Melo the only nitpicking selfish superstar out there?

3) As well-documented, we will probably not have enough cap space to sign the max contract to begin with. We will have to make additional moves which means giving up assets.

Yes it will be difficult to find a team willing to take Mozgov or Turiaf AND $3 million (which would make Mozgov free and Turiaf a $1million player. Yes green font.

So overall, I don't think waiting to the summer will mean we will be able to get a great deal in Melo.

You appear to be missing the point. Waiting for the summer IS risky. There is NO guarantee youll get diddly squat AND evidence of that was presented. Sure no one knows what who will want what and what is necessary for whom but people acting like Denver has nothing to lose by waiting is fooling themselves. Toronto, Cleveland, Phoenix all paid terribly by thinking that. Phoenix would have been screwed had Walsh not gifted them with including them in the deal. Cleveland and Toronto were screwed about as screwed can be and thats wiyh them managing to get a TPE (which has been used to improve their rebuilding team how again?).

TPE are only useful if you are going to use it. If as has been said on numerous occassions that Denver would be looking to scale back salary, a TPE becomes less useful especially for a team that will still be over cap barring more trades of their own. Snd yet the TPE has almost taken on a god like quality in terms of value...which is another mindboggling thing about this.

[K_ick_God]

dempseypost
Pretty much zero RT @tdh33: @dempseypost What are the chances Melo still ends up playing in New Jersey?

[seren]

Couple of things here:

1) Even with the new CBA, I would expect that the previous team would have the right to give that extra year. In the case of status quo, we are talking about a 5 yr/100 vs. 6 yr/120. This was irrelevant for Amare since Phoenix did not even make a 5 year guaranteed contract, but it is not hard to imagine Denver will make an offer like that to Melo. So by refusing a S&T, you are essentially telling Melo to screw himself if he wants more money with the additional year.

? There would have been no ramifications to Phoenix had the sign and trade that Walsh gifted them with was for 5/100 or 6/120. So your saying Stoudemire screwed himself? If traded Melo would actually be receiving a 4 year $80 million deal (the last year of his current contract plus the 3 year extension) and yet he appears eager for that so lets not assume hes going to screw himself.

2) If we are going to S&T route in order to give Melo his additional year, there is no doubt that Denver will want something out of it, ie picks, cap relief via taking on Al etc. They won't be interested in the trade exception as Phoenix or Toronto did as they will be way under the cap anyways.

And yet the ONLY team that got anything real for their top guys this past summer were the teams that were lucky to be dealing with teams that couldnt sign the player outright. Hows that? Did every other top player screw themselves by not getting that 6 th year at the sign and trade max? Or is Melo the only nitpicking selfish superstar out there?

3) As well-documented, we will probably not have enough cap space to sign the max contract to begin with. We will have to make additional moves which means giving up assets.

Yes it will be difficult to find a team willing to take Mozgov or Turiaf AND $3 million (which would make Mozgov free and Turiaf a $1million player. Yes green font.

So overall, I don't think waiting to the summer will mean we will be able to get a great deal in Melo.

You appear to be missing the point. Waiting for the summer IS risky. There is NO guarantee youll get diddly squat AND evidence of that was presented. Sure no one knows what who will want what and what is necessary for whom but people acting like Denver has nothing to lose by waiting is fooling themselves. Toronto, Cleveland, Phoenix all paid terribly by thinking that. Phoenix would have been screwed had Walsh not gifted them with including them in the deal. Cleveland and Toronto were screwed about as screwed can be and thats wiyh them managing to get a TPE (which has been used to improve their rebuilding team how again?).

TPE are only useful if you are going to use it. If as has been said on numerous occassions that Denver would be looking to scale back salary, a TPE becomes less useful especially for a team that will still be over cap barring more trades of their own. Snd yet the TPE has almost taken on a god like quality in terms of value...which is another mindboggling thing about this.

About the first point. If this is done in the summer, it won't be an extend and trade anymore. Melo would already opt out (he has to decide by June 30). It comes down to signing with NY for x years (we don't know what would it be with the new CBA of course) vs. x+1 years if he is signed and traded. We don't know how many years it will be in the new CBA obviously, but it will be very likely this difference will be in place.

About the second point. Every player eligible for the sixth year got it in the S&T. Bosh got it. LBJ got it. Lee got it. The ones that did not get it were never offered the sixth year by anyone to begin with. Miami gave away two first round picks each to Toronto and Cleveland so that they can give that sixth year to Bosh and LBJ respectively. So I do not get what your complaint on this.

About your third point. Again it is well documented that not only you do one of those you mentioned, but also you have to rescind Chandler plus find a taker for the first round pick. So it comes down to seeing Chandler, Turiaf (or Mozgov) and the first round pick as assets. I perceive them as assets. You may not.

About your last point. I don't know what you are mumbling about the TPE. First you say we did a favor to Phoenix with TPE and we don't have to do the same favor to Denver and they can go screw themselves. Then you make a 180 and say that TPE is useless to begin with. In any case, for Denver it has no meaning as they will be under the cap.

Overall, what I am saying is simply this: I don't see Melo coming to NY without a S&T. We will have to come to terms with Denver even in the summer. A Melo deal in the summer will cost us Chandler, first round pick, and one of Turiaf or Mozgov. Given that, a mid-season trade would be at least as good as this package for Denver to make a move.

[kingOfqueens]

But ok so say they get the exception (cause Melo wants to do Denver fans a favor). Which notable player(s) has been acquired via a TPE in recent memory (realizing the restrictions on how TPEs have been used)?

Utah got al jefferson using their TPE from boozer i believe. But you're absolutely right.. donnie doesnt have to include a TPE this offseason, i just assumed for melo's image sake the TPE was a given if we didn't get him by the trade deadline. Also someone mentioned something about us not having to trade draft picks if we got melo in an S&T during the offseason, which got me wondering why miami gave toronto 2 first round draft picks and cleveland 2 first and 2 second rounders in their S&T for bosh and lebron? They clearly didn't have to but they did it anyway.. am i missing something??

[seren]

Utah got al jefferson using their TPE from boozer i believe. But you're absolutely right.. donnie doesnt have to include a TPE this offseason, i just assumed for melo's image sake the TPE was a given if we didn't get him by the trade deadline. Also someone mentioned something about us not having to trade draft picks if we got melo in an S&T during the offseason, which got me wondering why miami gave toronto 2 first round draft picks and cleveland 2 first and 2 second rounders in their S&T for bosh and lebron? They clearly didn't have to but they did it anyway.. am i missing something??

You need cooperation to do S&T. Without S&T, Bosh and LBJ can't get that sixth year on the contract. Without those picks, Toronto and Cleveland would not do the S&Ts.

[kingOfqueens]

TPE are only useful if you are going to use it. If as has been said on numerous occassions that Denver would be looking to scale back salary, a TPE becomes less useful especially for a team that will still be over cap barring more trades of their own. Snd yet the TPE has almost taken on a god like quality in terms of value...which is another mindboggling thing about this.

Well i think the TPE would be a good thing for denver because it gives them more freedom to work out a trade for a player of their choosing rather than having to "settle" for gallo or chandler which would be the centerpiece of our package to them. They can package the TPE with lets say harrington for zach randolph since memphis might not resign him.. so instead of having a chandler for 10 mil next season they can pay randolph max salary and have a playoff team or let him go to save capspace in rebuild mode ...that was just an example i made up on the spot but the point is they have more flexibility with a TPE than a player who's going to be owed big money within a year or two (chandler or gallo)

[seren]

Well i think the TPE would be a good thing for denver because it gives them more freedom to work out a trade for a player of their choosing rather than having to "settle" for gallo or chandler which would be the centerpiece of our package to them. They can package the TPE with lets say harrington for zach randolph since memphis might not resign him.. so instead of having a chandler for 10 mil next season they can pay randolph max salary and have a playoff team or let him go to save capspace in rebuild mode ...that was just an example i made up on the spot but the point is they have more flexibility with a TPE than a player who's going to be owed big money within a year or two (chandler or gallo)

TPE is useful when you are over the cap. Denver will have the cap space to do what you are mentioning regardless of TPE. They will be way under the cap if Melo leaves. In fact, they will have to rescind the TPE to use their cap space.

[kingOfqueens]

You need cooperation to do S&T. Without S&T, Bosh and LBJ can't get that sixth year on the contract. Without those picks, Toronto and Cleveland would not do the S&Ts.

ah ok.. hah that was simple enough. So i suppose if melo wants the max money Den would still be getting the same picks in the offseason that we would offer them at the trade deadline. So it really comes down to chandler/gallo + maybe fields at the trade deadline or a gamble at the TPE + chance that another team comes in with a trade offer or chance that melo resigns with them by keeping him past the deadline.

[Leeroy Jenkins]

From NBA.com

http://www.nba.com/2011/news/01/31/karl ... ef:nbahpt2

Nothing new here just a read if you want one

[seren]

I don't think Melo will be traded until the deadline. They still have five more home games until the deadline and they need to sell some tickets.

[Gregory151]

ChrisMannixSI Chris Mannix
Carmelo: "The CBA is in the back of my mind but as far as being afraid to play this [season] out, I’m not"
6 minutes ag


ChrisMannixSI Chris Mannix
Melo on NJ: "I really don’t know where that came from about how if I was going to come here that extension wasn’t going to get signed."
6 minutes ago

[Justdatdude]

I don't know how many times he have to say that for people can stop with the 'he only cares about the money' slogan.

[Jay10]

ChrisMannixSI Chris Mannix
Carmelo: "The CBA is in the back of my mind but as far as being afraid to play this [season] out, I’m not"
6 minutes ag


ChrisMannixSI Chris Mannix
Melo on NJ: "I really don’t know where that came from about how if I was going to come here that extension wasn’t going to get signed."
6 minutes ago

the nuggets don't have a choice but to trade him after that comment

lol

[Gregory151]

@dempseypost: Melo: 'If I sit here and tell you I'm willing to lose $15-20 million, then I'll be lying to you.'

@dempseypost: Melo: 'If that's what it's going to take then so be it.'
6 minutes ago

@dempseypost: Melo cont.: 'But at the same time this has never been about money.'

[ctorres]

@dempseypost: Melo: 'If I sit here and tell you I'm willing to lose $15-20 million, then I'll be lying to you.''

Ugh, Melo, if your desperation causes us to have to trade both Gallo and Fields when you can easily wait to play alongside them next season then damn you!