Suns inability to close out games

visions · Post #1 » by **visions** » Sat Feb 5, 2011 11:03 pm

Yeah I know this gets discussed in most game threads but IMO it might be the Suns biggest weakness this season so I think it deserves it's own thread.

I'm talking specifically about games where the Suns have been well in control heading into the 4th and end up losing. I don't think it's even a mental thing as some of the coaches and players have said...it's a simple case of bad strategy. I'm so sick of watching this team revert to only 3's or long 2's in the last 5mins. This happens so often and not only do we let the other team back in but once they have the lead, we aren't getting it back by continually chucking from deep,

As fatigue takes over in the 4th, the long bombs stop falling and we get even less effort on the boards then earlier in the game...plus we are a bad rebounding team to being with...so I just can't understand this ridiculous strategy late in games. We need to keep attacking the basket and getting high percentage shots or even better drawing fouls and holding/padding the lead that way.

In the past we could just run the Nash/Amare p 'n r and get easy baskets or have the option of kicking out to open shooters if the double team came. Now we just seem to have 4 guys standing on the perimeter with no movement inside and just crappy, contested chucking most of the time as the game ends. The worst part is we can still run the p 'n r with Lopez of Gortat. They're not Amare but I would much rather we tried this to close out games than trying to rely on jump shots. It's even more annoying since in some games this season we have built a lead by getting Lopez or Gortat the ball inside, only to go away from these players for inexplicable reasons and proceed to lose the lead.

So many game this season we have reverted to this crap and choked. If we could have all those games back we'd not only be above .500 and in the 8th spot, we may even be contending for 6th or 7th.

So sick of this sh*t atm!!!! The Thunder game was just another example.

irish22022 · Post #2 » by **irish22022** » Sat Feb 5, 2011 11:44 pm

the reverting to long jumpers to close out games is nothing new. we've been that way for 5 or 6 years now.

What is new is we don't have a closer. Raja, Johnson, JRICH -- these guys were reliable. Vince isn't. That's the only difference.

Dalerax · Post #3 » by **Dalerax** » Sat Feb 5, 2011 11:54 pm

irish22022 wrote:the reverting to long jumpers to close out games is nothing new. we've been that way for 5 or 6 years now.

What is new is we don't have a closer. Raja, Johnson, JRICH -- these guys were reliable. Vince isn't. That's the only difference.

I'll just leave this here.

[Edit for more nostalgia]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bua5ldlgfPM[/youtube]

BurningHeart · Post #4 » by **BurningHeart** » Sun Feb 6, 2011 12:43 am

The Suns have had an inability to close out games for 18 years I've watched them. Not terribly exclusive to the Nash era.

YFZblu · Post #5 » by **YFZblu** » Sun Feb 6, 2011 1:41 am

Since someone pointed out the 2006 season, I'd like to note that the 2006 Phoenix Suns did not win a single game that was decided by three points or less during that regular season.

However, that team was able to come together at the right time and win two consecutive game 7's in Phoenix against the Lakers and then the Clippers--As well as game 1 of the WCF in Dallas.

My overall point being that not being able to close out games in February isn't necessarily something to put on red alert, especially considering the roster changes that have occurred. If this team makes the playoffs, they'll need the rest of the season to come together, and will most likely make it by the skin of their teeth.

YFZblu · Post #6 » by **YFZblu** » Sun Feb 6, 2011 1:50 am

BurningHeart wrote:The Suns have had an inability to close out games for 18 years I've watched them. Not terribly exclusive to the Nash era.

I would argue that save 2007, the Nash era Suns were simply outplayed by better teams in the post season.

The game that I'll never get over is game 6 of the 1993 NBA Finals. Phoenix mounted a great comeback, and forced the Bulls into multiple shot clock violations in the 4th quarter (three I believe). But the closing moments of that game were painful to watch. Phoenix wasn't able to close it out... MJ going coast to coast for a layup with literally zero resistance, Majrle taking a terribly long and difficult three point shot (missed it), Paxon's three, and eventually KJ being blocked by Horace Grant at the buzzer...

irish22022 · Post #7 » by **irish22022** » Sun Feb 6, 2011 2:21 am

I'll never forget the way Chuck fell to his knees at half court after Paxson's three. I was young, but that shot is all to vivid.

I'd also say that our close out issues are a lot worse in the past 6 years then they were back in the days of KJ and Chuck. We could pound down low more back then. Big O and Chuck, hell, even Googs and Tisdayle - the more inside threats you have, the better you are in close games.

Jimmy76 · Post #8 » by **Jimmy76** » Sun Feb 6, 2011 3:46 am

irish22022 wrote:I'll never forget the way Chuck fell to his knees at half court after Paxson's three. I was young, but that shot is all to vivid.

yeah I remember that shot too

visions · Post #9 » by **visions** » Sun Feb 6, 2011 6:45 am

BurningHeart wrote:The Suns have had an inability to close out games for 18 years I've watched them. Not terribly exclusive to the Nash era.

Well I can't really disagree with this cos I have been following the Suns for the same amount of time but it doesn't seem like it's ever been as bad as it has this year...though some years I don't remember as well as others.

What I am more getting at is this season we are totally one dimensional in the 4th qtr. Last season at least we had the 2-man Nash/Amare game to compliment the chucking from distance and give us other options or at least chances to get to the FT line. This season teams know they will have a chance to make a run on us and I think it has much to do with our poor defense (though that is improving a tiny bit) as it does our absolutely awful 4th qtr offense. We are never going to be able to clamp down and grind out a win a la say the Celtics...don't have the personell nor the culture to be this type of team. We win by outscoring the other team and demoralising them with our quick, efficient scoring.

All I'm asking for is some inside play in the 4th qtr. Anything...p 'n r with Lopez/Gortat, post ups for Frye...I'd even settle for Warrick and his out of control layup craziness then seeing another game where we lazily hoist up 3's with no rebounders and let the other team chip away at us.

YFZblu · Post #10 » by **YFZblu** » Sun Feb 6, 2011 8:10 am

All I'm asking for is some inside play in the 4th qtr. Anything...p 'n r with Lopez/Gortat, post ups for Frye...I'd even settle for Warrick and his out of control layup craziness then seeing another game where we lazily hoist up 3's with no rebounders and let the other team chip away at us.

Lopez? Give the ball to Warrick?!

visions · Post #11 » by **visions** » Sun Feb 6, 2011 12:32 pm

YFZblu wrote:
Lopez? Give the ball to Warrick?!

I am serious. I can't watch another game where we spend the 4th qtr living and dying by long j's. I know we're a jump shooting team but mix it up a bit!! Grant Hill is capable of slashing to the basket, VC can still get to the basket at will when he tries, Nash & Gortat have already worked out a reasonable 2-man game, Channing Frye is slowly developing a post up game, etc etc etc.

Let's use these weapons to help hold leads or pad them to win games. Other teams kills us with exactly this method. We shoot crappy 3's, they get the rebound and take it right inside on us. A lot of the time they draw fouls too so all those FT's help them even more to cut our lead.

I don't know what else to say about this. Maybe I'm being too simplistic about it but I really don't think it should take a rocket scientist to work out our 4th qtr strategy is an epic fail. It's happened enough times this season that the coaching staff and players should really be questioning what they are doing.

JMac1 · Post #12 » by **JMac1** » Sun Feb 6, 2011 12:39 pm

YFZblu wrote:Lopez?

F yea..Lopez!!! Thats the GD problem with this team...we ALWAYS start out wel, ALWAYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! With Lopez on the floor; like it or not. Give the dude a chance late in the game as well. Do you not remember his deep post up early in the OKC game??? What did he shoot in that game btw?

Wasn't Lopez on the floor the last time we beat OKC to close out the game??? OKC or NYK.

YFZblu wrote:My overall point being that not being able to close out games in February isn't necessarily something to put on red alert, especially considering the roster changes that have occurred. If this team makes the playoffs, they'll need the rest of the season to come together, and will most likely make it by the skin of their teeth.

If we don't close out in Feb, we won't be in the playoffs :lol:

My name is JMac and I 100% approve this thread. Good call vision.

RvM · Post #13 » by **RvM** » Sun Feb 6, 2011 6:21 pm

Nash needs to be more selfish. All of our close games have come up with clunkers from Frye and sometimes Vince.

Vince has hit some shots for us in the 4th, but it's tough because Nash can create for him, but no one for Nash.

Nash is our best shooter on the team and possibly the league, so run a pnr with Gortat/Frye up top and get him and open look or run an iso situation for Vince, that's when he's best in the clutch.

JohnVancouver · Post #14 » by **JohnVancouver** » Sun Feb 6, 2011 7:01 pm

RvM wrote:Nash needs to be more selfish. All of our close games have come up with clunkers from Frye and sometimes Vince.

Vince has hit some shots for us in the 4th, but it's tough because Nash can create for him, but no one for Nash.

Nash is our best shooter on the team and possibly the league, so run a pnr with Gortat/Frye up top and get him and open look or run an iso situation for Vince, that's when he's best in the clutch.

It's about options, right? Nash is very dangerous either way, shooting or passing, so we expect him to be doubled in those situations late--game. I'm sorry but I don't trust VC in the clutch - however, the opponent has to respect him so we should have someone else open.

I do love the idea of Grant inbounding to someone else, and Nash coming off a screen. And I do trust Duds to make something happen

bigfoot · Post #15 » by **bigfoot** » Sun Feb 6, 2011 9:01 pm

Problem is we need someone who wants to take over at the end of the game. Somebody not afraid to take the winning or losing shot. This season, too many times in the waning minutes of a game, a Suns player will make an extra pass instead of taking the shot. What they're really saying is I don't want to lose the game.

Anyone remember this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyFVKd2Nw-s

Steve is willing to have the ball in his hands at the end of the game. As great as he is, a lot of times he will pass the ball to a perimeter player instead. I'd much rather see the Suns lose when Steve shoots the ball.

YFZblu · Post #16 » by **YFZblu** » Sun Feb 6, 2011 10:46 pm

JohnVancouver wrote:
RvM wrote:Nash needs to be more selfish. All of our close games have come up with clunkers from Frye and sometimes Vince.

Vince has hit some shots for us in the 4th, but it's tough because Nash can create for him, but no one for Nash.

Nash is our best shooter on the team and possibly the league, so run a pnr with Gortat/Frye up top and get him and open look or run an iso situation for Vince, that's when he's best in the clutch.

It's about options, right? Nash is very dangerous either way, shooting or passing, so we expect him to be doubled in those situations late--game. I'm sorry but I don't trust VC in the clutch - however, the opponent has to respect him so we should have someone else open.

I do love the idea of Grant inbounding to someone else, and Nash coming off a screen. And I do trust Duds to make something happen

This.

Give the Ball to one of our best players, not our worst.

I'm still baffled that some of the rubes on this forum want to give the ball to two of our worst offensive players (Warrick and Lopez) in crunch time...

visions · Post #17 » by **visions** » Mon Feb 7, 2011 1:27 am

YFZblu wrote:I'm still baffled that some of the rubes on this forum want to give the ball to two of our worst offensive players (Warrick and Lopez) in crunch time...

I think you misunderstand me and the whole point of this thread. Obviously in crunch time, with the game on the line, I want Nash to shoot the ball before anyone else. For whatever reason this hardly ever happens but that is a different discussion.

What I am trying to get at it with this thread is discuss our 4th quarter strategy in general, particularly in games where we are leading after the 3rd. We seem to spend 3 quarters mixing it up offensively, getting the bigs going inside etc. only to go away from all that in the 4th and end up blowing games. In some games we've even seen this happen from the 3rd qtr on where we have a nice lead at halftime only to blow it by playing lazy and one dimensional on the offensive end during the 3rd qtr. I know Warrick and Lopez (to a lesser extent) are offensively challenged but I'm just using them as an exmple to show that while we don't have Amare anymore, we can still run a poor man's p 'n r...if only just to give us more options while we try to hold a lead, rather than shooting 3 after 3.

YFZblu · Post #18 » by **YFZblu** » Mon Feb 7, 2011 3:16 am

visions wrote:
YFZblu wrote:I'm still baffled that some of the rubes on this forum want to give the ball to two of our worst offensive players (Warrick and Lopez) in crunch time...

I think you misunderstand me and the whole point of this thread. Obviously in crunch time, with the game on the line, I want Nash to shoot the ball before anyone else. For whatever reason this hardly ever happens but that is a different discussion.

What I am trying to get at it with this thread is discuss our 4th quarter strategy in general, particularly in games where we are leading after the 3rd. We seem to spend 3 quarters mixing it up offensively, getting the bigs going inside etc. only to go away from all that in the 4th and end up blowing games. In some games we've even seen this happen from the 3rd qtr on where we have a nice lead at halftime only to blow it by playing lazy and one dimensional on the offensive end during the 3rd qtr. I know Warrick and Lopez (to a lesser extent) are offensively challenged but I'm just using them as an exmple to show that while we don't have Amare anymore, we can still run a poor man's p 'n r...if only just to give us more options while we try to hold a lead, rather than shooting 3 after 3.

I still disagree--The Suns play their best basketball with four three point shooters in the game, and I doubt you want Warrick playing center...

Frank Lee · Post #19 » by **Frank Lee** » Mon Feb 7, 2011 4:03 am

Suns need to adjust their closing line up. Results dictate change. #1 option should be for Nash to shoot. Period.

visions · Post #20 » by **visions** » Wed Feb 9, 2011 11:38 pm

So there it was again in the GS game...lazy outside shooting in the 4th, letting the other team make a run.

I mean if Frye doesn't hit those 3's when we're only up 5 (after being up by 20 or whatever!!), GS could have easily come back and won. They had all the momentum at that stage.

I just don't get it. Why are we not running any p 'n r or playing any inside game to preserve a lead???
Suns probably shoot less FT's in the last 5-6 mins of a game than other team in the league.

When are the coaches going to wake up and fix this massive problem??