[Camelo Thread 14] - Minny, Denver and NY working!! p28

[Knicks_Fan2]

This whole "Denver is going to lose money in attendance when Melo leaves" thing is pretty obvious. How is that going to be avoided?

Answer:

It's not.

It's inevitable. He's leaving. Either now or in the summer.

The only argument (for keeping him) that can be made is that Denver can sell a few more tickets in the playoffs and sucker a few more Nugget fans into buying Melo jerseys (chumps).

Not to mention it's not like season ticketholders can ask for a refund...see the Cavs who have great paid attendance because season ticket holders had to renew pre-decision. The odds are that tickets have been sold to these games and it's the secondary market--that the Nuggets don't care about--that will be most effected.

[BklyntoTNeck]

You want to feel bad for the Nugs fans but the two of them that post on REALGM make it really hard for me to do so. Reminds me of the Twolves fans swearing left and right that KG would never get traded. Or Cavs fans getting all defensive anytime someone said LeBron was leaving. We know how the story will most likely end here. It appears by all accounts that Melo is coming here whether it be by trade or by free agent signing. No matter what trade goes down, Denver is going to get fleeced. PERIOD. Take it with vasoline or without, your choice.

[JohnStarksTheDunk]

And my last best hope? I don't really care anymore, I'm ready for this to be done with. But I can't imagine Denver giving Melo as a gift to NY for crap. Your FO screwed up when it gave away all its assets to get Lebron.. and instead overpays Amare. If NY won't make an offer worth it, Denver will either trade him somewhere else for scraps or just keep him and let Melo take the PR hit.

So basically you're saying that you think Denver would rather get a lower return than deal with New York, since a Knicks offer > scraps (trading him as a rental) and a Knicks offer > nothing (if he leaves this summer).

I'm not saying that you're wrong, but that's just foolish management on Denver's part. They should want to get the best value they can. All NY has to do is beat the best rental offer, which they can most likely do. Unless they think having him for those extra games this year is worth losing him for nothing, which if that is the case, then there's not much the Knicks can/will do about it. Walsh has been consistent in not wanting to gut the team.

Denver is not going to get a fair return on Melo. It's just the way it is.

[thehandler3]

You missed the 23 million in savings that you can only receive if a deal is done WITHIN 17 days. Again, at this point this is not about talent for talent. This about you making a trade with in 17 days or you get a TPE in the summer. No team is going to trade for a player that has made it clear since last summer that he is only signing an extension with ONE TEAM! It doesn't matter what the team's name is

You seem to have forgotten, if Denver gives Melo away to NY, Denver will loss a lot of money in ticket revenue, etc. Pissing off your entire fan base, is not good for business. This will not save them 23 million. and even if it did, Stan and his wife are worth a combined 7 billion, so why ruin his franchise for what is chump change to him? Although your numbers are wrong too, The Rebel had a good post showing this.

And I gotta LOL at this continued belief that Melo will sign with NY like Lebron was going to. He wants his money. If he ends up on teams like LAL, Orlando, he resigns happily.

I gotta LOL at this trade you suggested on the Nuggets board.... http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachi ... Id=4scbqsr

It seemed decent from the Lakers and Nuggets prespectivve (If of course they deem Bynum non-injury risk) but Dallas gets a crap load of bad contracts in that deal. I think Denver would probably want another able-body (or at least draft picks) in that trade and not just Caron Butler's contract because otherwise they'd have already taken Eddy Curry off of our hands. I also could never see Cuban helping the Lakers by any means.

[cleanuphtr24]

It seemed decent from the Lakers and Nuggets prespectivve (If of course they deem Bynum non-injury risk) but Dallas gets a crap load of bad contracts in that deal. I think Denver would probably want another able-body (or at least draft picks) in that trade and not just Caron Butler's contract because otherwise they'd have already taken Eddy Curry off of our hands. I also could never see Cuban helping the Lakers by any means.

Thanks pretty much what I was suggesting. The Lakers would be doing backflips. Cuban has no reason to giftwrap Melo for a rival while taking on three bad contracts.

Hey, if Dallas is looking to take on salary to move Hayward and help Melo go elsewhere, why not something like this: http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachi ... Id=4cjvwkz

At least they'd get a big expiring and get Melo out of their conference.

[johnnywishbone]

And my last best hope? I don't really care anymore, I'm ready for this to be done with. But I can't imagine Denver giving Melo as a gift to NY for crap. Your FO screwed up when it gave away all its assets to get Lebron.. and instead overpays Amare. If NY won't make an offer worth it, Denver will either trade him somewhere else for scraps or just keep him and let Melo take the PR hit.

So basically you're saying that you think Denver would rather get a lower return than deal with New York, since a Knicks offer > scraps (trading him as a rental) and a Knicks offer > nothing (if he leaves this summer).

I'm not saying that you're wrong, but that's just foolish management on Denver's part. They should want to get the best value they can. All NY has to do is beat the best rental offer, which they can most likely do. Unless they think having him for those extra games this year is worth losing him for nothing, which if that is the case, then there's not much the Knicks can/will do about it. Walsh has been consistent in not wanting to gut the team.

Denver is not going to get a fair return on Melo. It's just the way it is.

I'm not sure if you can get a lower return than what Knicks offered.

Anyway from Mannix at SI.com

"The package New Jersey offered was so much stronger than this," the executive said. "To me this feels like Denver trying to lure other teams to the table."

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/b ... z1DId3EU1p

As an aside in his column Peter Vecsey recommended the Lakers trade Artest/Bynum for Melo.

Just a recommendation but people were rousting me when I said that last week.

[thehandler3]

And my last best hope? I don't really care anymore, I'm ready for this to be done with. But I can't imagine Denver giving Melo as a gift to NY for crap. Your FO screwed up when it gave away all its assets to get Lebron.. and instead overpays Amare. If NY won't make an offer worth it, Denver will either trade him somewhere else for scraps or just keep him and let Melo take the PR hit.

So basically you're saying that you think Denver would rather get a lower return than deal with New York, since a Knicks offer > scraps (trading him as a rental) and a Knicks offer > nothing (if he leaves this summer).

I'm not saying that you're wrong, but that's just foolish management on Denver's part. They should want to get the best value they can. All NY has to do is beat the best rental offer, which they can most likely do. Unless they think having him for those extra games this year is worth losing him for nothing, which if that is the case, then there's not much the Knicks can/will do about it. Walsh has been consistent in not wanting to gut the team.

Denver is not going to get a fair return on Melo. It's just the way it is.

+1 the ball is in Denver's court now as far as the Knicks are concerned. It's been in their court for at least since the Nets deal flopped and probably since late July. I can't be mad at Denver for wanting to keep Melo for this season and then lose him for nothing since they definetly don't want to lose a significant amount of money in the offseason in attendance and other means of $$$. They also will have a chance to perhaps advance in the playoffs one round and maybe catch lightning in a bottle and make a serious run (doubtful). The problem with that thinkning is that it's extremely short-sighted. It's highly unlikely the get out of the West and probably impossible for them to win a championship so for them to keep him this year on false hopes of making a run and spurning the Knicks makes no sense. You need to get something back for him, Toronto and Cleveland have proved what losing a player of that caliber will do to your franchise so you need to start rebuilding ASAP.

[god shammgod]

And my last best hope? I don't really care anymore, I'm ready for this to be done with. But I can't imagine Denver giving Melo as a gift to NY for crap. Your FO screwed up when it gave away all its assets to get Lebron.. and instead overpays Amare. If NY won't make an offer worth it, Denver will either trade him somewhere else for scraps or just keep him and let Melo take the PR hit.

So basically you're saying that you think Denver would rather get a lower return than deal with New York, since a Knicks offer > scraps (trading him as a rental) and a Knicks offer > nothing (if he leaves this summer).

I'm not saying that you're wrong, but that's just foolish management on Denver's part. They should want to get the best value they can. All NY has to do is beat the best rental offer, which they can most likely do. Unless they think having him for those extra games this year is worth losing him for nothing, which if that is the case, then there's not much the Knicks can/will do about it. Walsh has been consistent in not wanting to gut the team.

Denver is not going to get a fair return on Melo. It's just the way it is.

I'm not sure if you can get a lower return than what Knicks offered.

Anyway from Mannix at SI.com

"The package New Jersey offered was so much stronger than this," the executive said. "To me this feels like Denver trying to lure other teams to the table."

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/b ... z1DId3EU1p

As an aside in his column Peter Vecsey recommended the Lakers trade Artest/Bynum for Melo.

Just a recommendation but people were rousting me when I said that last week.

taking bynum/artest doesn't save them money. you have to factor that in. the nuggets owner has made a big deal out of reducing payroll. no trade will happen that doesn't satisfy this.

[JohnStarksTheDunk]

taking bynum/artest doesn't save them money. you have to factor that in. the nuggets owner has made a big deal out of reducing payroll. no trade will happen that doesn't satisfy this.

Yup. Since they aren't going to get fair value in return regardless, getting salary relief is important for justifying any Melo trade.

[MKCATL]

[quote="johnnywishboneI'm not sure if you can get a lower return than what Knicks offered.

Anyway from Mannix at SI.com

"The package New Jersey offered was so much stronger than this," the executive said. "To me this feels like Denver trying to lure other teams to the table."
Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/b ... z1DId3EU1p

As an aside in his column Peter Vecsey recommended the Lakers trade Artest/Bynum for Melo.

Just a recommendation but people were rousting me when I said that last week.[/quote]

Of cousre the package was so much stronger cause it had no chance in happening. Denver really screwed themselves letting there fan base believe that had a chance in hell getting a package like that, now there gonna most likely have to except crap in comparison. I'm sure people will Roust Vecsey too.

[K_ick_God]

Even if Denver would trade with Lakers, which I seriously doubt, I'm sure they're not interested in clogging up their cap for Bynum at $15M a year to be injured more often than not.

[JohnStarksTheDunk]

I'm not sure if you can get a lower return than what Knicks offered.

They absolutely can: letting him walk in the off-season. I actually still think this is the most-likely scenario though.

[johnnywishbone]

If it's about savings (which I believe) then every trade with Melo has to include Harrington. Who is owed more than the potential savings from the proposed deal.

Plus the Minnesota trades is BS. No way they trade Brewer and a 1st for AR + take Curry. That's just dumb on their part.

I go back to why not rent him to Dallas for expirings if they will take Harrington in the deal. Plus if they get Beaubois they can dump Billups which would be another 13M in savings.

Ruhtard's trade idea will never happen. Accept it.

[Context]

You seem to have forgotten, if Denver gives Melo away to NY, Denver will loss a lot of money in ticket revenue, etc.

10 home games plus 4 home play-off games do not equal even 15 million.

Hey Nutt, I'm waiting on your reply to this? And we're talking about NET...

[captain subtext]

Depends on if Denver's FO feels Bynum can remain injury free in the future.

If your front office believes that, Denver fans should REALLY start worrying.

[JohnStarksTheDunk]

If it's about savings (which I believe) then every trade with Melo has to include Harrington. Who is owed more than the potential savings from the proposed deal.

Plus the Minnesota trades is BS. No way they trade Brewer and a 1st for AR + take Curry. That's just dumb on their part.

I go back to why not rent him to Dallas for expirings if they will take Harrington in the deal. Plus if they get Beaubois they can dump Billups which would be another 13M in savings.

Ruhtard's trade idea will never happen. Accept it.

I agree that Minny is giving up too much in that rumored deal, and I also think the Knicks would probably have to take Harrington back in any Melo trade.

I still think he won't be traded before the deadline.

[johnnywishbone]

If it's about savings (which I believe) then every trade with Melo has to include Harrington. Who is owed more than the potential savings from the proposed deal.

Plus the Minnesota trades is BS. No way they trade Brewer and a 1st for AR + take Curry. That's just dumb on their part.

I go back to why not rent him to Dallas for expirings if they will take Harrington in the deal. Plus if they get Beaubois they can dump Billups which would be another 13M in savings.

Ruhtard's trade idea will never happen. Accept it.

I agree that Minny is giving up too much in that rumored deal, and I also think the Knicks would probably have to take Harrington back in any Melo trade.

I still think he won't be traded before the deadline.

I totally missed the signs on Lebron so I could be all wrong again. My logic tells me Melo is either going to a rent-a-team or to the Lakers/Knicks/Nets (yes - they are still in it) as part of an extend and trade. But the Knicks are going to have to give up more than many around here are comfortable with/expected to. I'd assign about a 50% probability on a pre-trade deadline deal and 50% on a post season deal/free agency.

I'd really hate to be in Walsh's shoes. Because I would rather wait on 2012 when there are better free agents. Chris Paul makes me nervous because he looks so small out there but God can that guy ball. And Dwight Howard + Deron Williams are equally ridiculous. But there is no way you can turn Melo down if he wants to come here and not look like an ****. Tough spot for Donnie.

edit: the other caveat is that it would be way way better for the Knicks to sign Melo under the new CBA. So, I'm sure Walsh wouldn't shed a tear to see this thing pass the trade deadline with nothing happening. Signing Melo as a free agent is the ideal situation for the Knicks IMO. He has to hope that Denver still believes they have a shot at keeping Melo as a Nugget.

[tangotai]

Ohhh how I love this MeloDrama... This thread is my comic relief!

I especially appreciate the psychology of it all. All us posters putting out there what we would do.
But the situation is VERY clear>

1) Denver FO of Ujiri and young Kroenke are inept. The blew it big time. Ujiri let Bosh walk for nothing... he can either make a deal with NY and get on with it with about 20 million in savings and 3 young pieces .... OR he can go down in history as the most inept NBA exec since Scott Layden.

2) The argument about selling the deal to Denver's fan base is absurd. It is insult to Denver fans and basically to BB fans anywhere. READ THIS: THERE IS NO WAY YOU CAN MAKE THIS DEAL TASTE OK TO A FAN IN DENVER. The Denver fans are not stupid.... do you really think they are going to be happy if they get Walker and a 2014 pick from NY thrown into the deal.... It's a fire sale or get nothing for him situation!

3) Donnie Walsh will not cave in at the last minute. He has repeatedly said he will only make a deal that makes NY better and will not blow up the team. Gallo, Fields and Mozcubed will not be traded. He would rather call Denver's bluff. Ujiri and Kroenke do not have the experience to know this for sure... but they are facing one strong willed and experience GM. In the end it will be a take it or leave it deal.

4) Ujiri and Denver have a predictable method of operation = MO. They kept changing their minds with the Nyets deal... unable to commit to anything. They are doing the same thing right now with NY. They are like scared rats in a maze... there is only one way out, and the cheese is 20+million and a few young players.... but they keep sniffing around dead ends with the hope that the maze will magically change.
It won't! They are stuck.

5) If they don't trade Melo to NY, they can not begin to work on the Billups and Nene potential trades. They could wind up losing more than just Melo for nothing.

6) What is REALLY interesting to me is that even tho Ujiri and young Kroenke know all of this....
they are still doing what they do. It is human nature I guess. Unable to adapt and accept that they are the architects of this disaster by not having dealt Melo when they actually did have leverage.... they will basically continue to pilot the sinking ship right up to the trade deadline.

It's sad, it's comical... it's predicatable and it is who Ujiri and Kroenke are. Remember, neither one of them have ever EVER made an NBA trade. And how many deals has Donnie Walsh made in his 30 years ....????

Who do you think will prevail?

[Jay10]

If it's about savings (which I believe) then every trade with Melo has to include Harrington. Who is owed more than the potential savings from the proposed deal.

Plus the Minnesota trades is BS. No way they trade Brewer and a 1st for AR + take Curry. That's just dumb on their part.

I go back to why not rent him to Dallas for expirings if they will take Harrington in the deal. Plus if they get Beaubois they can dump Billups which would be another 13M in savings.

Ruhtard's trade idea will never happen. Accept it.

I agree that Minny is giving up too much in that rumored deal, and I also think the Knicks would probably have to take Harrington back in any Melo trade.

I still think he won't be traded before the deadline.

I totally missed the signs on Lebron so I could be all wrong again. My logic tells me Melo is either going to a rent-a-team or to the Lakers/Knicks/Nets (yes - they are still in it) as part of an extend and trade. But the Knicks are going to have to give up more than many around here are comfortable with/expected to. I'd assign about a 50% probability on a pre-trade deadline deal and 50% on a post season deal/free agency.

I'd really hate to be in Walsh's shoes. Because I would rather wait on 2012 when there are better free agents. Chris Paul makes me nervous because he looks so small out there but God can that guy ball. And Dwight Howard + Deron Williams are equally ridiculous. But there is no way you can turn Melo down if he wants to come here and not look like an ****. Tough spot for Donnie.

edit: the other caveat is that it would be way way better for the Knicks to sign Melo under the new CBA. So, I'm sure Walsh wouldn't shed a tear to see this thing pass the trade deadline with nothing happening. Signing Melo as a free agent is the ideal situation for the Knicks IMO. He has to hope that Denver still believes they have a shot at keeping Melo as a Nugget.

lol, the media definitely has control over you.

[kosmovitelli]

Stan Kroenke owns the Pepsi Center and even if the Nuggets don't make the playoffs, he can use the arena for concerts and other sports, cultural events, etc. For example, two years ago (when thge Nuggets made it to the WCF), Kroenke's marketing team already scheduled a WWE night and the date conflicted with a Western Finals date for the Nuggets ! Kroenke and his staff didn't think his team was good enough to reach the WCF ! lol

The Pepsi Center was privately built in 1999 for $180 million. Stan Kroenke purchased the Denver Nuggets, the Colorado Avalanche, and the Pepsi Center in a deal valued at $450 million in 2000. The agreement included $268 million in cash to buy 93.5 percent of the teams and arena, plus $136 million for the assumption of debt on the Pepsi Center.

Kroenke still owes $58 million for the Pepsi Center. His teams (Denver Nuggets and Colorado Avalanche) barely generate enough contractually obligated revenue to cover debt obligations. Forbes explained the expiration and non renewal of the Coors founding partner sponsorship agreement, and the fall in the number of arena suites licenses, led to a decline of approximately 11.5% in pledged revenue. Forbes also indicated the debt coverage ratio plummeted to 1.1 in 2009 (while it was 1.5 in 2006).

That's why Stan Kroenke decided to buy the Rams and didnt care anymore about the Nuggets.

I don't think playoff revenues will matter that much to him if he can save approx $20 million and use that money to reduce his Pepsi Center debt. And even if his teams (Nuggets and Avalanche) don't make the playoffs in the future then he can still use the arena for other events that will generate revenues between april and june. After the Pepsi Center's debt is paid in full and the Nuggets fall under the salary cap, I wouldn't be surprised to see Stan Kroenke sell the team in the future.