[Camelo Thread 14] - Minny, Denver and NY working!! p28

[Context]

I totally missed the signs on Lebron so I could be all wrong again. My logic tells me Melo is either going to a rent-a-team or to the Lakers/Knicks/Nets (yes - they are still in it) as part of an extend and trade. But the Knicks are going to have to give up more than many around here are comfortable with/expected to. I'd assign about a 50% probability on a pre-trade deadline deal and 50% on a post season deal/free agency.

I'd really hate to be in Walsh's shoes. Because I would rather wait on 2012 when there are better free agents. Chris Paul makes me nervous because he looks so small out there but God can that guy ball. And Dwight Howard + Deron Williams are equally ridiculous. But there is no way you can turn Melo down if he wants to come here and not look like an ****. Tough spot for Donnie.

I can guarantee NO NETS. Melo would never sign an extension there. Not to mention, Prov will never discredit himself or make his organization and himself look weak for a basketball player. He could care less about Melo. As far as he's concerned he will wait for his time.

Do not let the "Lebron shell shock" cloud your perspective. Lakers? Three reasons it won't happen. 2 time champions(If it ain't broke don't fix it). Bynum is a 7 footer who is 23 years old and part of the Twin/Triple Towers LA. And most importantly based on Kroenke's philosophy/sports business model Bynum's prior injury history combined with his current contract makes him a bad fit. Or risky guy to build around.

And again, as two GM's have stated(including the GS GM specifically). No team is going to invest in Melo knowing that he is going to NY ultimately. Again, I have said this from the very beginning. Unlike Lebron, Melo has assisted the Nuggets in the process. He gave them the heads up since the summer. They are merely trying to get the most they can for him. Now if you feel that the Denver fans are going to riot if Melo is traded and 10 home games and 2-4 play-off home games translates into more value than 23 million in savings and some assets-then I think keeping him till the summer might still happen.

[seren]

Stan Kroenke owns the Pepsi Center and even if the Nuggets don't make the playoffs, he can use the arena for concerts and other sports, cultural events, etc. For example, two years ago (when thge Nuggets made it to the WCF), Kroenke's marketing team already scheduled a WWE night and the date conflicted with a Western Finals date for the Nuggets ! Kroenke and his staff didn't think his team was good enough to reach the WCF ! lol

The Pepsi Center was privately built in 1999 for $180 million. Stan Kroenke purchased the Denver Nuggets, the Colorado Avalanche, and the Pepsi Center in a deal valued at $450 million in 2000. The agreement included $268 million in cash to buy 93.5 percent of the teams and arena, plus $136 million for the assumption of debt on the Pepsi Center.

Kroenke still owes $58 million for the Pepsi Center. His teams (Denver Nuggets and Colorado Avalanche) barely generate enough contractually obligated revenue to cover debt obligations. Forbes explained the expiration and non renewal of the Coors founding partner sponsorship agreement, and the fall in the number of arena suites licenses, led to a decline of approximately 11.5% in pledged revenue. Forbes also indicated the debt coverage ratio plummeted to 1.1 in 2009 (while it was 1.5 in 2006).

That's why Stan Kroenke decided to buy the Rams and didnt care anymore about the Nuggets.

I don't think playoff revenues will matter that much to him if he can save approx $20 million and use that money to reduce his Pepsi Center debt. And even if his teams (Nuggets and Avalanche) don't make the playoffs in the future then he can still use the arena for other events that will generate revenues between april and june. After the Pepsi Center's debt is paid in full and the Nuggets fall under the salary cap, I wouldn't be surprised to see Stan Kroenke sell the team in the future.

Great info. Thanks. This should clear all the concerns about the great billionaire Kroenke who would never sell Melo cheap.

[Context]

Ohhh how I love this MeloDrama... This thread is my comic relief!

I especially appreciate the psychology of it all. All us posters putting out there what we would do.
But the situation is VERY clear>

1) Denver FO of Ujiri and young Kroenke are inept. The blew it big time. Ujiri let Bosh walk for nothing... he can either make a deal with NY and get on with it with about 20 million in savings and 3 young pieces .... OR he can go down in history as the most inept NBA exec since Scott Layden.

2) The argument about selling the deal to Denver's fan base is absurd. It is insult to Denver fans and basically to BB fans anywhere. READ THIS: THERE IS NO WAY YOU CAN MAKE THIS DEAL TASTE OK TO A FAN IN DENVER. The Denver fans are not stupid.... do you really think they are going to be happy if they get Walker and a 2014 pick from NY thrown into the deal.... It's a fire sale or get nothing for him situation!

3) Donnie Walsh will not cave in at the last minute. He has repeatedly said he will only make a deal that makes NY better and will not blow up the team. Gallo, Fields and Mozcubed will not be traded. He would rather call Denver's bluff. Ujiri and Kroenke do not have the experience to know this for sure... but they are facing one strong willed and experience GM. In the end it will be a take it or leave it deal.

4) Ujiri and Denver have a predictable method of operation = MO. They kept changing their minds with the Nyets deal... unable to commit to anything. They are doing the same thing right now with NY. They are like scared rats in a maze... there is only one way out, and the cheese is 20+million and a few young players.... but they keep sniffing around dead ends with the hope that the maze will magically change.
It won't! They are stuck.

5) If they don't trade Melo to NY, they can not begin to work on the Billups and Nene potential trades. They could wind up losing more than just Melo for nothing.

6) What is REALLY interesting to me is that even tho Ujiri and young Kroenke know all of this....
they are still doing what they do. It is human nature I guess. Unable to adapt and accept that they are the architects of this disaster by not having dealt Melo when they actually did have leverage.... they will basically continue to pilot the sinking ship right up to the trade deadline.

It's sad, it's comical... it's predicatable and it is who Ujiri and Kroenke are. Remember, neither one of them have ever EVER made an NBA trade. And how many deals has Donnie Walsh made in his 30 years ....????

Who do you think will prevail?

You know I love your posts! Nailed....

[truth serum]

Stan Kroenke owns the Pepsi Center and even if the Nuggets don't make the playoffs, he can use the arena for concerts and other sports, cultural events, etc. For example, two years ago (when thge Nuggets made it to the WCF), Kroenke's marketing team already scheduled a WWE night and the date conflicted with a Western Finals date for the Nuggets ! Kroenke and his staff didn't think his team was good enough to reach the WCF ! lol

The Pepsi Center was privately built in 1999 for $180 million. Stan Kroenke purchased the Denver Nuggets, the Colorado Avalanche, and the Pepsi Center in a deal valued at $450 million in 2000. The agreement included $268 million in cash to buy 93.5 percent of the teams and arena, plus $136 million for the assumption of debt on the Pepsi Center.

Kroenke still owes $58 million for the Pepsi Center. His teams (Denver Nuggets and Colorado Avalanche) barely generate enough contractually obligated revenue to cover debt obligations. Forbes explained the expiration and non renewal of the Coors founding partner sponsorship agreement, and the fall in the number of arena suites licenses, led to a decline of approximately 11.5% in pledged revenue. Forbes also indicated the debt coverage ratio plummeted to 1.1 in 2009 (while it was 1.5 in 2006).

That's why Stan Kroenke decided to buy the Rams and didnt care anymore about the Nuggets.

I don't think playoff revenues will matter that much to him if he can save approx $20 million and use that money to reduce his Pepsi Center debt. And even if his teams (Nuggets and Avalanche) don't make the playoffs in the future then he can still use the arena for other events that will generate revenues between april and june. After the Pepsi Center's debt is paid in full and the Nuggets fall under the salary cap, I wouldn't be surprised to see Stan Kroenke sell the team in the future.

Kozgov FTW

[MeloUpInNYC]

What are the current reports about Denver's interest in Chandler? Do they like him? Think he's a bum? Do they plan on trying to resign him? I don't see Denver accepting a trade like the Wolves trade with Chandler as the main piece if they don't like him and don't plan to sign him to a big deal.

[johnnywishbone]

I totally missed the signs on Lebron so I could be all wrong again. My logic tells me Melo is either going to a rent-a-team or to the Lakers/Knicks/Nets (yes - they are still in it) as part of an extend and trade. But the Knicks are going to have to give up more than many around here are comfortable with/expected to. I'd assign about a 50% probability on a pre-trade deadline deal and 50% on a post season deal/free agency.

I'd really hate to be in Walsh's shoes. Because I would rather wait on 2012 when there are better free agents. Chris Paul makes me nervous because he looks so small out there but God can that guy ball. And Dwight Howard + Deron Williams are equally ridiculous. But there is no way you can turn Melo down if he wants to come here and not look like an ****. Tough spot for Donnie.

I can guarantee NO NETS. Melo would never sign an extension there. Not to mention, Prov will never discredit himself or make his organization and himself look weak for a basketball player. He could care less about Melo. As far as he's concerned he will wait for his time.

Do not let the "Lebron shell shock" cloud your perspective. Lakers? Three reasons it won't happen. 2 time champions(If it ain't broke don't fix it). Bynum is a 7 footer who is 23 years old and part of the Twin/Triple Towers LA. And most importantly based on Kroenke's philosophy/sports business model Bynum's prior injury history combined with his current contract makes him a bad fit. Or risky guy to build around.

And again, as two GM's have stated(including the GS GM specifically). No team is going to invest in Melo knowing that he is going to NY ultimately. Again, I have said this from the very beginning. Unlike Lebron, Melo has assisted the Nuggets in the process. He gave them the heads up since the summer. They are merely trying to get the most they can for him. Now if you feel that the Denver fans are going to riot if Melo is traded and 10 home games and 2-4 play-off home games translates into more value than 23 million in savings and some assets-then I think keeping him till the summer might still happen.

Do you really believe that if Melo had the option to going to LA he'd turn it down? I love the Knicks but if the Lakers come calling you don't turn them down. They have the best franchise/most success in the league. If it is all about "winning" as Melo put it - LA is his best bet.

It's really up to the Lakers if they want Melo - I'm not saying they do but it makes sense to me logically.

And if you are Denver Bynum >>>> Wilson Chandler on a RFA deal and a lousy pick from Minny that might not even pay out because it is top 14 protected and the Grizzlies (who originally owned the pick) look lotto bound.

I hear what Kos is saying about the savings but IMO if you are trying to sell the team you'd be in a much stronger position with either a roster that is under the cap or has some talent i.e. you get a deal where Harrington is gone and you can deal/let expire your other players or you try to get the best pieces you can. Plus that savings that is being discussed in contingent on Minny taking Curry which is just a piped dream IMO.

re: Jay10 controlled by the media? So says the guy listening to Chris Broussard

[MeloUpInNYC]

Even if Denver would trade with Lakers, which I seriously doubt, I'm sure they're not interested in clogging up their cap for Bynum at $15M a year to be injured more often than not.

I'm sure they'd be more interested in giving Wilson Chandler $8-10M... If the Lakers offered Bynum, and the only other offer was our Chandler offer, the Nuggets would take Bynum is a second.

[Context]

Stan Kroenke owns the Pepsi Center and even if the Nuggets don't make the playoffs, he can use the arena for concerts and other sports, cultural events, etc. For example, two years ago (when thge Nuggets made it to the WCF), Kroenke's marketing team already scheduled a WWE night and the date conflicted with a Western Finals date for the Nuggets ! Kroenke and his staff didn't think his team was good enough to reach the WCF ! lol

The Pepsi Center was privately built in 1999 for $180 million. Stan Kroenke purchased the Denver Nuggets, the Colorado Avalanche, and the Pepsi Center in a deal valued at $450 million in 2000. The agreement included $268 million in cash to buy 93.5 percent of the teams and arena, plus $136 million for the assumption of debt on the Pepsi Center.

Kroenke still owes $58 million for the Pepsi Center. His teams (Denver Nuggets and Colorado Avalanche) barely generate enough contractually obligated revenue to cover debt obligations. Forbes explained the expiration and non renewal of the Coors founding partner sponsorship agreement, and the fall in the number of arena suites licenses, led to a decline of approximately 11.5% in pledged revenue. Forbes also indicated the debt coverage ratio plummeted to 1.1 in 2009 (while it was 1.5 in 2006).

That's why Stan Kroenke decided to buy the Rams and didnt care anymore about the Nuggets.

I don't think playoff revenues will matter that much to him if he can save approx $20 million and use that money to reduce his Pepsi Center debt. And even if his teams (Nuggets and Avalanche) don't make the playoffs in the future then he can still use the arena for other events that will generate revenues between april and june. After the Pepsi Center's debt is paid in full and the Nuggets fall under the salary cap, I wouldn't be surprised to see Stan Kroenke sell the team in the future.

Another excellent post. I knew about the WWF event.

All along I thought they would hold onto Melo till the end of the season and then, the recent Minny reports popped up... I knew if it could be done that Melo would definitely be shipped on/before the 24th. However, as Tang pointed out... If the Nuggets want to get value for some of their other players they can't wait until the deadline. Teams need to make decisions. They can't wait too long for Denver to decide... If the Nuggets plan on getting maximum value this Melo deal has to be executed by the middle of next week at the latest...

[Jay10]

johnnywishbone

you really think the nuggets are going to help the lakers get their third ring?

i guess the third time is the charm with the nets acquiring carmelo, huh?

[tangotai]

Ohhh how I love this MeloDrama... This thread is my comic relief!

I especially appreciate the psychology of it all. All us posters putting out there what we would do.
But the situation is VERY clear>

1) Denver FO of Ujiri and young Kroenke are inept. The blew it big time. Ujiri let Bosh walk for nothing... he can either make a deal with NY and get on with it with about 20 million in savings and 3 young pieces .... OR he can go down in history as the most inept NBA exec since Scott Layden.

2) The argument about selling the deal to Denver's fan base is absurd. It is insult to Denver fans and basically to BB fans anywhere. READ THIS: THERE IS NO WAY YOU CAN MAKE THIS DEAL TASTE OK TO A FAN IN DENVER. The Denver fans are not stupid.... do you really think they are going to be happy if they get Walker and a 2014 pick from NY thrown into the deal.... It's a fire sale or get nothing for him situation!

3) Donnie Walsh will not cave in at the last minute. He has repeatedly said he will only make a deal that makes NY better and will not blow up the team. Gallo, Fields and Mozcubed will not be traded. He would rather call Denver's bluff. Ujiri and Kroenke do not have the experience to know this for sure... but they are facing one strong willed and experience GM. In the end it will be a take it or leave it deal.

4) Ujiri and Denver have a predictable method of operation = MO. They kept changing their minds with the Nyets deal... unable to commit to anything. They are doing the same thing right now with NY. They are like scared rats in a maze... there is only one way out, and the cheese is 20+million and a few young players.... but they keep sniffing around dead ends with the hope that the maze will magically change.
It won't! They are stuck.

5) If they don't trade Melo to NY, they can not begin to work on the Billups and Nene potential trades. They could wind up losing more than just Melo for nothing.

6) What is REALLY interesting to me is that even tho Ujiri and young Kroenke know all of this....
they are still doing what they do. It is human nature I guess. Unable to adapt and accept that they are the architects of this disaster by not having dealt Melo when they actually did have leverage.... they will basically continue to pilot the sinking ship right up to the trade deadline.

It's sad, it's comical... it's predicatable and it is who Ujiri and Kroenke are. Remember, neither one of them have ever EVER made an NBA trade. And how many deals has Donnie Walsh made in his 30 years ....????

Who do you think will prevail?

You know I love your posts! Nailed....

I read what the guys post and just sit here laughing... I am soooo glad that DW is running the Knicks. The majority of our own fans on this board would have traded Gallo or Moz or Fields or 2 of the 3 or all 3 long ago. Isiah would have crumbled, Layden would have frozen, the posters on this board would have sold our future down the river....

Donnie Walsh has a vision.... "The creator has a master plan, a few championships for every Knick fan"

[MeloUpInNYC]

However, as Tang pointed out... If the Nuggets want to get value for some of their other players they can't wait until the deadline. Teams need to make decisions. They can't wait too long for Denver to decide... If the Nuggets plan on getting maximum value this Melo deal has to be executed by the middle of next week at the latest...

Is Denver really looking to move any other players after a Melo trade? They're not moving Billups. They could move Nene but I don't think they will. JR Smith could probably get moved even if they keep Melo.

[johnnywishbone]

johnnywishbone

you really think the nuggets are going to help the lakers get their third ring?

i guess the third time is the charm with the nets acquiring carmelo, huh?

and do you really think the Nuggets want to send their star player to the team of his choosing? What if it was 1991 and Patrick Ewing said he wanted to go to LA and only LA. Do you think the Knicks would have been rushing to help him out? In the end Denver really doesn't have many good outs they are going to have to choose something that they are not happy with at some level.

I'd say there is a less than 5% chance on Melo going to the Nets but I wouldn't totally rule it out. In the end the Nets have what Denver wants and that is not something to scoff at.

[seren]

They don't have to trade the whole roster. With this deal, they are under the luxury tax. Chandler replaces Melo. With their current record, they should be able to make the playoffs with Chandler.

[Context]

I read what the guys post and just sit here laughing... I am soooo glad that DW is running the Knicks. The majority of our own fans on this board would have traded Gallo or Moz or Fields or 2 of the 3 or all 3 long ago. Isiah would have crumbled, Layden would have frozen, the posters on this board would have sold our future down the river....

Donnie Walsh has a vision.... "The creator has a master plan, a few championships for every Knick fan"

And you tell no lie Tang. There was a point where I would have traded 2 of three easy. I panicked... It was for two days but then I took a deep breath and relaxed and came to my senses. This is why you can never underestimate experience(DW) and you must respect it and be a student of it...

[moocow007]

I totally missed the signs on Lebron so I could be all wrong again. My logic tells me Melo is either going to a rent-a-team or to the Lakers/Knicks/Nets (yes - they are still in it) as part of an extend and trade. But the Knicks are going to have to give up more than many around here are comfortable with/expected to. I'd assign about a 50% probability on a pre-trade deadline deal and 50% on a post season deal/free agency.

I'd really hate to be in Walsh's shoes. Because I would rather wait on 2012 when there are better free agents. Chris Paul makes me nervous because he looks so small out there but God can that guy ball. And Dwight Howard + Deron Williams are equally ridiculous. But there is no way you can turn Melo down if he wants to come here and not look like an ****. Tough spot for Donnie.

I can guarantee NO NETS. Melo would never sign an extension there. Not to mention, Prov will never discredit himself or make his organization and himself look weak for a basketball player. He could care less about Melo. As far as he's concerned he will wait for his time.

Do not let the "Lebron shell shock" cloud your perspective. Lakers? Three reasons it won't happen. 2 time champions(If it ain't broke don't fix it). Bynum is a 7 footer who is 23 years old and part of the Twin/Triple Towers LA. And most importantly based on Kroenke's philosophy/sports business model Bynum's prior injury history combined with his current contract makes him a bad fit. Or risky guy to build around.

And again, as two GM's have stated(including the GS GM specifically). No team is going to invest in Melo knowing that he is going to NY ultimately. Again, I have said this from the very beginning. Unlike Lebron, Melo has assisted the Nuggets in the process. He gave them the heads up since the summer. They are merely trying to get the most they can for him. Now if you feel that the Denver fans are going to riot if Melo is traded and 10 home games and 2-4 play-off home games translates into more value than 23 million in savings and some assets-then I think keeping him till the summer might still happen.

Do you really believe that if Melo had the option to going to LA he'd turn it down? I love the Knicks but if the Lakers come calling you don't turn them down. They have the best franchise/most success in the league. If it is all about "winning" as Melo put it - LA is his best bet.

It's really up to the Lakers if they want Melo - I'm not saying they do but it makes sense to me logically.

And if you are Denver Bynum >>>> Wilson Chandler on a RFA deal and a lousy pick from Minny that might not even pay out because it is top 14 protected and the Grizzlies (who originally owned the pick) look lotto bound.

I hear what Kos is saying about the savings but IMO if you are trying to sell the team you'd be in a much stronger position with either a roster that is under the cap or has some talent i.e. you get a deal where Harrington is gone and you can deal/let expire your other players or you try to get the best pieces you can. Plus that savings that is being discussed in contingent on Minny taking Curry which is just a piped dream IMO.

re: Jay10 controlled by the media? So says the guy listening to Chris Broussard

Don't agree at all that Bynum >>>> Wilson Chandler on a RFA deal.

Firstly, no one has an idea what that new deal is first of all (since it will be based on market value...and obviously he's worth diddly if Bynum >>>> than him). And the benefit of having someone like Chandler is that the Nuggets (whom Kos has already explained are heavy into cutting costs) have the flexibility of essentially trying him out to see if he does well in Denver and seeing what the market for him is in the offseason. Chandler also can provide value as a sign-and-trade candidate to numerous teams that would be looking for an established, productive, young do all SF that may not have the capspace to sign him outright.

And Bynum has been injured and missed a lot of time every year for the past 4 years so the notion that he somehow will now start staying injury free is a bit far fetched. And then there's the contract that will pay him nearly $14 million this year, $15 million next year and $16.5 million the year after that.

[captain subtext]

Even if Denver would trade with Lakers, which I seriously doubt, I'm sure they're not interested in clogging up their cap for Bynum at $15M a year to be injured more often than not.

I'm sure they'd be more interested in giving Wilson Chandler $8-10M... If the Lakers offered Bynum, and the only other offer was our Chandler offer, the Nuggets would take Bynum is a second.

Which would be a terrible decision. Not to say it isn't true. And not to say anybody should be keen on paying Wilson that much money. But a healthy good player for 10MM trumps a ultratalented wreck for 15MM.

[N8isScofield]

Kroenke is not going to have money problems any time soon. He also owns over 30 percent of Arsenal FC which is perhaps the most fiscally sound football club in the world.

[Knicks_Fan2]

Melo excused from morning shoot-around due to personal reasons...

[Context]

However, as Tang pointed out... If the Nuggets want to get value for some of their other players they can't wait until the deadline. Teams need to make decisions. They can't wait too long for Denver to decide... If the Nuggets plan on getting maximum value this Melo deal has to be executed by the middle of next week at the latest...

Is Denver really looking to move any other players after a Melo trade? They're not moving Billups. They could move Nene but I don't think they will. JR Smith could probably get moved even if they keep Melo.

I really don't know. In my mind that's what I would do. I would hold a press conference and tell the fans(after the fact of course) that we were going to lose Melo in the summer anyway and if we waited to trade everyone who we could get back value- we would have gotten much less. Nonetheless, we are committed to re-building and we need your faith and support blah blah blah... It's inevitable why prolong it and make things worse for yourself. As Tang mentioned, fans are not stupid and I think if you talk to them and treat them like people - they will support you...We'll see I guess...

[moocow007]

Kroenke is not going to have money problems any time soon. He also owns over 30 percent of Arsenal FC which is perhaps the most fiscally sound football club in the world.

I think you're missing the point. Money is relative. A businessman's goal is to maximize gain. Whether he makes money elsewhere or not doesn't matter if he's losing money on a given venture UNLESS he's one of those Mark Cuban or George Steinbrenner types who are actually fans of the sport their team owns. Kroenke by most all accounts is a pure businessman. Arsenal would be viewed as a money making venture while the Nuggets would be viewed as a potential money losing venture and most businessman will look to maximize profits by either cutting costs or taking a risk and throwing money into something. Again, Kroenke (as mentioned by one of the Denver writers a few days ago) has shown he'd cut costs.