[Camelo Thread 14] - Minny, Denver and NY working!! p28

[towelie]

Melo excused from morning shoot-around due to personal reasons...

Last time this happened was around the time the Nets pulled their offer I believe.

I would guess that Melo's meeting with Denver's FO to further discuss his future.

[Context]

Johnny,

Kroenke is all about the money/running a profitable business. Bynum is too "risky and expensive" to build around. That's the bottom line.

[johnnywishbone]

Firstly, no one has an idea what that new deal is first of all (since it will be based on market value...and obviously he's worth diddly if Bynum >>>> than him). And the benefit of having someone like Chandler is that the Nuggets (whom Kos has already explained are heavy into cutting costs) have the flexibility of essentially trying him out to see if he does well in Denver and seeing what the market for him is in the offseason. Chandler also can provide value as a sign-and-trade candidate to numerous teams that would be looking for an established, productive, young do all SF that may not have the capspace to sign him outright.

And Bynum has been injured and missed a lot of time every year for the past 4 years so the notion that he somehow will now start staying injury free is a bit far fetched. And then there's the contract that will pay him nearly $14 million this year, $15 million next year and $16.5 million the year after that.

I totally understand the cost cutting argument. And I see that as one way to go. My point on cost savings is that if you are just trying to clear cap space then they have to be looking at deals where they can also get rid of Harrington/Bird man. If you recall last week I was saying the Nuggets should consider a rent-a-melo deal to Dallas because they can offer trades for expiring contracts that would include Al Harrington. I believe Dallas would consider it because that could put them over the top in this year's playoff picture.

I understand Bynum is a risk but the upside is you have a top 3 center in the league who could potentially be a bigger piece to a winning team then Melo himself. Plus they would also get Ron Artest who is a solid player. If they are going to the playoff this year:

Billups.
Affalo
Artest
Nene
Bynum

Is not so shabby. Playoffs is all about defense and that would be a tough team to compete against.

[tangotai]

Melo excused from morning shoot-around due to personal reasons...

Last time this happened was around the time the Nets pulled their offer I believe.

I would guess that Melo's meeting with Denver's FO to further discuss his future.

+1
Nice insight/guess. While we don't really know, it seems reasonable that they are going to make sure ONE LAST time (LOL) that Melo will not sign the extension with them.
LMFAO at Ujiri:

[Context]

Kroenke is not going to have money problems any time soon. He also owns over 30 percent of Arsenal FC which is perhaps the most fiscally sound football club in the world.

I think you're missing the point. Money is relative. A businessman's goal is to maximize gain. Whether he makes money elsewhere or not doesn't matter if he's losing money on a given venture UNLESS he's one of those Mark Cuban or George Steinbrenner types who are actually fans of the sport their team owns. Kroenke by most all accounts is a pure businessman. Arsenal would be viewed as a money making venture while the Nuggets would be viewed as a potential money losing venture and most businessman will look to maximize profits by either cutting costs or taking a risk and throwing money into something. Again, Kroenke (as mentioned by one of the Denver writers a few days ago) has shown he'd cut costs.

Exactly Moo... I don't think people really understand what Kroenke is about...

[Context]

I totally understand the cost cutting argument. And I see that as one way to go. My point on cost savings is that if you are just trying to clear cap space then they have to be looking at deals where they can also get rid of Harrington/Bird man.

Do you realize that if Denver does not make a move to get UNDER the 70 million dollar threshold in less than 17 days -they will be writing a check(payroll and luxury tax payment) 97 million dollars?

[johnnywishbone]

I totally understand the cost cutting argument. And I see that as one way to go. My point on cost savings is that if you are just trying to clear cap space then they have to be looking at deals where they can also get rid of Harrington/Bird man.

Do you realize that if Denver does not make a move to get UNDER the 70 million dollar threshold in less than 17 days -they will be writing a check(payroll and luxury tax payment) 97 million dollars?

That's something to consider but if that's all they are after do you really believe the Broussard Knicks trade is the best they can do? Plus that whole trade is contingent on Minny taking Curry which is just beyond all reason for me. So to me this whole discussion is moot because it is depends on that trade which will not happen.

So the best deal for them in a cost savings mode is to trade Al Harrington with Melo who is owed more than 30 million (or somewhere around that) over the course of his contract.

Last week I was saying there are really good COST SAVING trade scenarios between Denver and Dallas. So it's not like I'm late to the cost savings party btw.

For reiteration if Dallas send Butler/Chandler/Beaubois to Dallas for Melo & Harrington Denver could then dump Chauncey (they'd have two good PGs), let Nene walk, let Martin & Smith expire and they'd be down to like 8 million in obligations for next year. That's some crazy real savings.

[Johnny Hoops]

Regarding Wolves taking Curry.

I thought I've seen numerous times that 50% of Curry's salary was paid upfront this year -- leaving only 50% to cover -- plus given where we are in season at this point the % is somewhat lower in terms of what is due.

Also heard that Knicks could give Minny $3M to offset the acquisition costs of Curry.

If that all is true or close to true -- then you are looking at a trade of Brewer & #1 pick for Randolph which isn't that far out of reach in my mind. I think Walsh still places a HIGH VALUE on AR despite Mike's use of the kid and I've always felt moving him for a #1 pick by itself was selling cheaply.

[Context]

Johnnywish,

Why would I want to give up assets for a player for 30 games when he's made it clear that he wants to go home? Maybe you would do it Johnny but I wouldn't. And again, why would two GM's share my opinion on Melo? This is the mistake that we can make by generalizing human beings. Melo strikes me as the type that wouldn't appreciate going to a rental situation. Did you see his reaction when he thought he was traded to the Nets? You need fire/desire/happiness to win. Why would I want a player who genuinely wants to be home already?

And as far as the Minny deal -the fans don't have a huge issue with it. They just want the deal sweeten up. And again, this deal is assuming that they have exhausted all other possibilities throughout the league to get value for their "17 days of cap space".

You continue to bring up Harrington but this Minny deal saves them a ton more. There is no reason for us to add 30 more million in savings totaling 53 million when we can wait for free agency. That's what I would do if I were DW...

[johnnywishbone]

Why would I want to give up assets for a player for 30 games when he's made it clear that he wants to go home? Maybe you would do it Johnny but I wouldn't. And again, why would two GM's share my opinion on Melo? This is the mistake that we can make by generalizing human beings. Melo strikes me as the type that wouldn't appreciate going to a rental situation. Did you see his reaction when he thought he was traded to the Nets? You need fire/desire/happiness to win. Why would I want a player who genuinely wants to be home already?

And as far as the Minny deal -the fans don't have a huge issue with it. They just want the deal sweeten up. And again, this deal is assuming that they have exhausted all other possibilities throughout the league to get value for their "17 days of cap space".

You keep bring up Harrington but this Minny deal saves them a ton more. There is no reason for us to add 30 more million in savings totaling 53 million when we can wait for free agency. That's what I would do if I were DW...

In my Dallas / Denver deal they send two expiring contract (one guy injured for the season) and Beaubois who is their 3rd string PG for Carmelo . Mark Cuban has proven he is willing to do what it takes to win it all. Plus he'd have a shot at signing Melo even if it was slim. And if he can't sign him just extend and trade him to NY this summer for Wil or Gallo. We'll need to clear out cap to sign Melo this Summer anyway. If you are Melo you are going to a contender. Why pout you are playing with 2 HOF players in Dirk and Jason Kidd? It's not like going to New Jersey at all.

The Minny deal does not save them more. No way. You guys are talking 25 million in savings? Al's contract is more than that by itself.

[aggo]

Regarding Wolves taking Curry.

I thought I've seen numerous times that 50% of Curry's salary was paid upfront this year -- leaving only 50% to cover -- plus given where we are in season at this point the % is somewhat lower in terms of what is due.

Also heard that Knicks could give Minny $3M to offset the acquisition costs of Curry.

If that all is true or close to true -- then you are looking at a trade of Brewer & #1 pick for Randolph which isn't that far out of reach in my mind. I think Walsh still places a HIGH VALUE on AR despite Mike's use of the kid and I've always felt moving him for a #1 pick by itself was selling cheaply.

no i think the issue is teh absolute cap value of currys contract at 12 mil or whatever it is

its irrelevant that curry is owed 3million-- that isnt the issue. wherever he is traded to, he is still counted against the cap with 12 million.

hence why curry going to minnesota is critical. Because DEN wants to stay under the luxury tax they dont want salary to match up. Or else they lose melo and pay luxury tax. That is why having minnesota involved is critical.

[cgf]

Why would I want to give up assets for a player for 30 games when he's made it clear that he wants to go home? Maybe you would do it Johnny but I wouldn't. And again, why would two GM's share my opinion on Melo? This is the mistake that we can make by generalizing human beings. Melo strikes me as the type that wouldn't appreciate going to a rental situation. Did you see his reaction when he thought he was traded to the Nets? You need fire/desire/happiness to win. Why would I want a player who genuinely wants to be home already?

And as far as the Minny deal -the fans don't have a huge issue with it. They just want the deal sweeten up. And again, this deal is assuming that they have exhausted all other possibilities throughout the league to get value for their "17 days of cap space".

You keep bring up Harrington but this Minny deal saves them a ton more. There is no reason for us to add 30 more million in savings totaling 53 million when we can wait for free agency. That's what I would do if I were DW...

In my Dallas / Denver deal they send two expiring contract (one guy injured for the season) for Carmelo and Beaubois who is their 3rd string PG. Mark Cuban has proven he is willing to do what it takes to win it all. Plus he'd have a shot at signing Melo even if it was slim. And if he can't sign him just extend and trade him to NY this summer for Wil or Gallo. We'll need to clear out cap to sign Melo this Summer anyway.

The Minny deal does not save them more. No way. You guys are talking 25 million in savings? Al's contract is more than that by itself.

That's not true. Only the next 2 years are fully guaranteed for Al, the last two are only guaranteed for 50%. He's owed like 20ish mil if he's cut after next season while this trade would save them that 25 mil this year. Check the exact numbers on Al's deal but either way it's not much more than this trade and the savings wouldn't be as immediate.

[K_ick_God]

Why would I want to give up assets for a player for 30 games when he's made it clear that he wants to go home? Maybe you would do it Johnny but I wouldn't. And again, why would two GM's share my opinion on Melo? This is the mistake that we can make by generalizing human beings. Melo strikes me as the type that wouldn't appreciate going to a rental situation. Did you see his reaction when he thought he was traded to the Nets? You need fire/desire/happiness to win. Why would I want a player who genuinely wants to be home already?

And as far as the Minny deal -the fans don't have a huge issue with it. They just want the deal sweeten up. And again, this deal is assuming that they have exhausted all other possibilities throughout the league to get value for their "17 days of cap space".

You keep bring up Harrington but this Minny deal saves them a ton more. There is no reason for us to add 30 more million in savings totaling 53 million when we can wait for free agency. That's what I would do if I were DW...

In my Dallas / Denver deal they send two expiring contract (one guy injured for the season) and Beaubois who is their 3rd string PG for Carmelo . Mark Cuban has proven he is willing to do what it takes to win it all. Plus he'd have a shot at signing Melo even if it was slim. And if he can't sign him just extend and trade him to NY this summer for Wil or Gallo. We'll need to clear out cap to sign Melo this Summer anyway. If you are Melo you are going to a contender. Why pout you are playing with 2 HOF players in Dirk and Jason Kidd? It's not like going to New Jersey at all.

The Minny deal does not save them more. No way. You guys are talking 25 million in savings? Al's contract is more than that by itself.

It's possible but a few problems: Caron may be back for the second round of the playoffs, Beaubois is not just a throw-in, and there is no guarantee that Chandler will want to go to Dallas in a S&T, or that the Knicks will part with Gallo if they've already cleared the cap room to sign Melo, plus Beaubois's value is reduced with Lawson there.

[Context]

The Minny deal does not save them more. No way. You guys are talking 25 million in savings? Al's contract is more than that by itself.

Your 11.6 million in expiring will be counted against Denver's cap for the 2011 LUXURY TAX calculations. In your proposal, Denver will still remain above the LUXURY TAX THRESHOLD. We are talking about to different things here. 2011 savings that can only be achieved WITHIN 17 DAYS vs savings over the next 4 years...If you are willing to take back Melo for 3 months with NO EXTENSION go right ahead. He will walk if he's a man of his word and I believe he is and I am willing to put him to the test.

[towelie]

Why would I want to give up assets for a player for 30 games when he's made it clear that he wants to go home? Maybe you would do it Johnny but I wouldn't. And again, why would two GM's share my opinion on Melo? This is the mistake that we can make by generalizing human beings. Melo strikes me as the type that wouldn't appreciate going to a rental situation. Did you see his reaction when he thought he was traded to the Nets? You need fire/desire/happiness to win. Why would I want a player who genuinely wants to be home already?

And as far as the Minny deal -the fans don't have a huge issue with it. They just want the deal sweeten up. And again, this deal is assuming that they have exhausted all other possibilities throughout the league to get value for their "17 days of cap space".

You keep bring up Harrington but this Minny deal saves them a ton more. There is no reason for us to add 30 more million in savings totaling 53 million when we can wait for free agency. That's what I would do if I were DW...

In my Dallas / Denver deal they send two expiring contract (one guy injured for the season) and Beaubois who is their 3rd string PG for Carmelo . Mark Cuban has proven he is willing to do what it takes to win it all. Plus he'd have a shot at signing Melo even if it was slim. And if he can't sign him just extend and trade him to NY this summer for Wil or Gallo. We'll need to clear out cap to sign Melo this Summer anyway. If you are Melo you are going to a contender. Why pout you are playing with 2 HOF players in Dirk and Jason Kidd? It's not like going to New Jersey at all.

The Minny deal does not save them more. No way. You guys are talking 25 million in savings? Al's contract is more than that by itself.

You've been pushing this agenda for WEEKS now. Seriously, stop. You keep bringing up Harrington, but if Denver really does have a rental deal on the table with Beaubois + expirings and Dallas is willing to take Harrington (still awful for Denver), Denver isn't going to mash their accept button. What they'll do is take that offer and tell the Knicks to "beat this package, or we're shipping him to Dallas." And we do have the expirings to exchange for Harrington, so if that's what it takes, a deal will be done with NY.

Melo isn't going to be traded to Lakers or Dallas, people need to stop with that garbage. They simply do not have the assets to complete a trade. If they have a rental offer on the table for Melo, it'd be used as leverage AGAINST the Knicks, and Denver isn't going to readily accept a trade with a Western Conference rival (and especially not to the Lakers, who've knocked out the Nuggets in the past, and whose star player was indicted for rape in Colorado).

[Lottery Bound]

Chris Tomasson: Smith: "I seen Melo wasn't here.... What's going on with Melo?.. Once you walk in the locker room and you don't see him... what's going on?' about 1 hour ago

Chris Tomasson: Melo missed shootaround due to personal reasons and expected to play tonight. But with trade rumors even J.R. Smith surprised to see no Melo about 1 hour ago

[Context]

And besides Johnnywish,

Harrington's total contract is about 20.1 million+ 1.9 million for the remainder of this season..
Your Dallas deal cost Denver 7.9 million in Luxury tax.

That's a net savings of: 14 million compared to 23 million

[ibraheim718]

Ohhh how I love this MeloDrama... This thread is my comic relief!

I especially appreciate the psychology of it all. All us posters putting out there what we would do.
But the situation is VERY clear>

1) Denver FO of Ujiri and young Kroenke are inept. The blew it big time. Ujiri let Bosh walk for nothing... he can either make a deal with NY and get on with it with about 20 million in savings and 3 young pieces .... OR he can go down in history as the most inept NBA exec since Scott Layden.

2) The argument about selling the deal to Denver's fan base is absurd. It is insult to Denver fans and basically to BB fans anywhere. READ THIS: THERE IS NO WAY YOU CAN MAKE THIS DEAL TASTE OK TO A FAN IN DENVER. The Denver fans are not stupid.... do you really think they are going to be happy if they get Walker and a 2014 pick from NY thrown into the deal.... It's a fire sale or get nothing for him situation!

3) Donnie Walsh will not cave in at the last minute. He has repeatedly said he will only make a deal that makes NY better and will not blow up the team. Gallo, Fields and Mozcubed will not be traded. He would rather call Denver's bluff. Ujiri and Kroenke do not have the experience to know this for sure... but they are facing one strong willed and experience GM. In the end it will be a take it or leave it deal.

4) Ujiri and Denver have a predictable method of operation = MO. They kept changing their minds with the Nyets deal... unable to commit to anything. They are doing the same thing right now with NY. They are like scared rats in a maze... there is only one way out, and the cheese is 20+million and a few young players.... but they keep sniffing around dead ends with the hope that the maze will magically change.
It won't! They are stuck.

5) If they don't trade Melo to NY, they can not begin to work on the Billups and Nene potential trades. They could wind up losing more than just Melo for nothing.

6) What is REALLY interesting to me is that even tho Ujiri and young Kroenke know all of this....
they are still doing what they do. It is human nature I guess. Unable to adapt and accept that they are the architects of this disaster by not having dealt Melo when they actually did have leverage.... they will basically continue to pilot the sinking ship right up to the trade deadline.

It's sad, it's comical... it's predicatable and it is who Ujiri and Kroenke are. Remember, neither one of them have ever EVER made an NBA trade. And how many deals has Donnie Walsh made in his 30 years ....????

Who do you think will prevail?

You know I love your posts! Nailed....

I read what the guys post and just sit here laughing... I am soooo glad that DW is running the Knicks. The majority of our own fans on this board would have traded Gallo or Moz or Fields or 2 of the 3 or all 3 long ago. Isiah would have crumbled, Layden would have frozen, the posters on this board would have sold our future down the river....

Donnie Walsh has a vision.... "The creator has a master plan, a few championships for every Knick fan"

So are you the grand old wise one now? Are you our new leader?

Get real.... DW may in theory be running the knicks but the owner in reality has the last say and it just so happens he has a job extension hanging over DW's head. And if he wants DW who works for him to trade away Fields and Chandler Walsh is going to do it. Right now he is buying time and giving lowballing the nuggets a try. He's got a couple of weeks to do so. But the deal is going to get done and Fields or Gallo or even Mozgov isn't going to get in the way of what the owner wants.

You also act as if those that would prefer to do the deal now or at the trade deadline would not want to try and give as little as possible or sign him outright in the summer IF...... Wait for it..... They knew it was a sure thing!!!! And nothing in sports is a sure thing. Now unless you know Anthony personally or his wife or are Leon rose's nephew which we can all assume you aren't you can't speak as some all seeing overlord of what Carmelo wants regardless of reports. So interject your opinion and don't try and come off as some evil wizard "sitting back reading what other posters write" and laughing to yourself....bwaaahhaaaahahaa.

[johnnywishbone]

You've been pushing this agenda for WEEKS now. Seriously, stop. You keep bringing up Harrington, but if Denver really does have a rental deal on the table with Beaubois + expirings and Dallas is willing to take Harrington (still awful for Denver), Denver isn't going to mash their accept button. What they'll do is take that offer and tell the Knicks to "beat this package, or we're shipping him to Dallas." And we do have the expirings to exchange for Harrington, so if that's what it takes, a deal will be done with NY.

Melo isn't going to be traded to Lakers or Dallas, people need to stop with that garbage. They simply do not have the assets to complete a trade. If they have a rental offer on the table for Melo, it'd be used as leverage AGAINST the Knicks, and Denver isn't going to readily accept a trade with a Western Conference rival (and especially not to the Lakers, who've knocked out the Nuggets in the past, and whose star player was indicted for rape in Colorado).

Thank you for finally understanding my point. And if you are Walsh is it really worth taking back Harrington's contract? That's why I think if you are Walsh you don't want a deal to get done so that you can go for Melo in free agency. If Dallas is willing to do a rental that would be the best situation for the Nuggets and Knicks.

[Context]

Thank you for finally understanding my point. And if you are Walsh is it really worth taking back Harrington's contract? That's why I think if you are Walsh you don't want a deal to get done so that you can go for Melo in free agency. If Dallas is willing to do a rental that would be the best situation for the Nuggets and Knicks.

It's not a better offer:

Harrington's total contract is about 20.1 million+ 1.9 million for the remainder of this season..
Your Dallas deal cost Denver 7.9 million in Luxury tax.

That's a net savings of: 14 million compared to 23 million