Any doubt about who is the franchise player on that team?

[FCNATL85]

Quite clear now that the hawks cannot get it straight without Al (NO and PHI at home). He is the real leader of that team and once again he was sorely missed. And why? Because we had to rely on him to close the deal against LAC. The final play in that game cost him a few games...
Unless it is to trade for d Howard, no way Al can be included in any kind of deal at the moment...

[SAUCERY_SWEET]

That's why they call him "'THE BOSS".

[Hawk4Playoffs]

It's hard to believe we struggle this much without Horford. I can understand a hard fought loss... but this is just pathetic. Josh needs to stop jacking up jumpers... Its good to see marvin getting rebounds though. Its games like this you just want to forget and move on. Good thing we have 3 days off between today and the next game. Lets hope Horford and Joe are 100%.

LETS GO HAWKS!

[MaceCase]

Can't discount his play and veteran leadership. Apparently he's the only one keeping things sane on the court through his effort and vocalizations. This whole tri-captain business is bullocks by all accounts although I do admit that I enjoy Josh's off the court demeanor.

[theatlfan]

Eh, I remember 2 years ago when we were without Smoove and went .500 while losing to the likes of NJN (2x), IND, and TOR, while beating the likes of WASH(2x), CHA, and MIL (CHI was a W in there too... it was 2 years ago). Earlier this season, we weren't exactly world beaters without JJ (5-4 though we did have a W against ORL, the 2x digits losses to SAS, BOS, and MIA were prolly expected without him.. but losing by 23 to DET would not be).

Fact is that all 3 of our guys have to be ready to go or we're simply not a very good team...

[Harry10]

this shows that the Hawks shouldn't have given max to Joe and should have just spent money on Crawford and/or Wesley Matthews

[myrak433]

[quote="Harry10"]this shows that the Hawks shouldn't have given max to Joe and should have just spent money on Crawford and/or Wesley Matthews[/quoteo



Giving Joe the Max is not what's wrong with the Hawks. We need better play from the point on the defensive end. And team that is aggressive on the offensive end at the point will destroy the hawks. Also if a team has a legit center that is good in the post we will have a hard time as well. but our biggest problem is defending point guards.


we had to max joe....... we would be where Cleveland is right now if we didn't have JJ, well maybe not that bad but I doubt we would have a winning record right now.

[azuresou1]

Um, there's absolutely no reason we'd have to max Joe. We wouldn't be quite AS good, but we also would have far more financial flexibility in the future, and some of that money saved could be used to sign a legit point guard or center.

[Harry10]

Giving Joe the Max is not what's wrong with the Hawks. We need better play from the point on the defensive end. And team that is aggressive on the offensive end at the point will destroy the hawks. Also if a team has a legit center that is good in the post we will have a hard time as well. but our biggest problem is defending point guards.


we had to max joe....... we would be where Cleveland is right now if we didn't have JJ, well maybe not that bad but I doubt we would have a winning record right now.

[/quote]

this is absolutely idiotic

[myrak433]

Giving Joe the Max is not what's wrong with the Hawks. We need better play from the point on the defensive end. And team that is aggressive on the offensive end at the point will destroy the hawks. Also if a team has a legit center that is good in the post we will have a hard time as well. but our biggest problem is defending point guards.


we had to max joe....... we would be where Cleveland is right now if we didn't have JJ, well maybe not that bad but I doubt we would have a winning record right now.

this is absolutely idiotic[/quote]

I respect your opinion. Respect mine.

[azuresou1]

You're absolutely crazy if you think Atlanta without Joe Johnson is an 8-44 team, or even REMOTELY close.

We played 9 games without Joe. We were 5-4 in that stretch, putting us on pace for 46 wins. We're on pace for 52 wins right now. I think Joe is worth approximately 6 wins over replacing him with a Wesley Matthews or someone like that, and I would definitely trade those 6 wins from the SG spot to pick up another 5 wins at the PG spot and 4 from the C spot.

[myrak433]

You're absolutely crazy if you think Atlanta without Joe Johnson is an 8-44 team, or even REMOTELY close.

We played 9 games without Joe. We were 5-4 in that stretch, putting us on pace for 46 wins. We're on pace for 52 wins right now. I think Joe is worth approximately 6 wins over replacing him with a Wesley Matthews or someone like that, and I would definitely trade those 6 wins from the SG spot to pick up another 5 wins at the PG spot and 4 from the C spot.

which point could we have gotten this past off season and which centers that would have made us better with out JJ. and Wesley Mattthews is not on JJ level. Matthews is putting up some nice numbers and he has a bright future but he is not putting up these numbers while facing double and sometimes triple teams defense, LaMarcus Aldridge does...... Joe does. so just think that you can put any SG in to replace a Joe Johnson is "absolutely crazy". not maxing out JJ. remember people with way more basketball knowledge gave and would have giving JJ max money.... multiple teams would have max out JJ. and the coaches around the NBA are still the ones putting JJ in the All Star Game. is Matthews in it?
and those five wins with Joe out were not impressive the only team we beat worth mentioning is Orlando and they were without Nelson the other four wins were Indiana, New Jersey,Phily when they were sucking, and Memphis(and we got lucking in that game).

[Harry10]

if Joe was injuired for 82 games, the Hawks would still make the 6th or 7th seed in the east easily.

[Harry10]

we had to max joe....... we would be where Cleveland is right now if we didn't have JJ, well maybe not that bad but I doubt we would have a winning record right now.

this is absolutely idiotic

I respect your opinion. Respect mine.

i'm not going to respect your opinion, it is just so stupid

[azuresou1]

You're absolutely crazy if you think Atlanta without Joe Johnson is an 8-44 team, or even REMOTELY close.

We played 9 games without Joe. We were 5-4 in that stretch, putting us on pace for 46 wins. We're on pace for 52 wins right now. I think Joe is worth approximately 6 wins over replacing him with a Wesley Matthews or someone like that, and I would definitely trade those 6 wins from the SG spot to pick up another 5 wins at the PG spot and 4 from the C spot.

which point could we have gotten this past off season and which centers that would have made us better with out JJ. and Wesley Mattthews is not on JJ level. Matthews is putting up some nice numbers and he has a bright future but he is not putting up these numbers while facing double and sometimes triple teams defense, LaMarcus Aldridge does...... Joe does. so just think that you can put any SG in to replace a Joe Johnson is "absolutely crazy". not maxing out JJ. remember people with way more basketball knowledge gave and would have giving JJ max money.... multiple teams would have max out JJ. and the coaches around the NBA are still the ones putting JJ in the All Star Game. is Matthews in it?
and those five wins with Joe out were not impressive the only team we beat worth mentioning is Orlando and they were without Nelson the other four wins were Indiana, New Jersey,Phily when they were sucking, and Memphis(and we got lucking in that game).

People with "way more basketball knowledge" also decided to give Rashard Lewis ass-tons of money, so you'll have to excuse me if I think 75% of GMs are idiots who have their jobs because basketball is a closed circle with little new blood.

JJ is an All Star, but All Stars are not all created equally, and it's a product of the East having weak guard depth that he's in an All Star.

So no, not many promising PGs or Cs were available this past offseason, but some are available this offseason, or next, or the year after, and we'll be unable to acquire any of them because Joe ****ing Johnson is getting paid more than LeBron James, Dwyane Wade, Chris Paul, and Deron Williams.

That you seriously think removing JJ from this team would make us comparable to a 13 win team means that your opinion is so far off base that it's actually kind of pathetic.

[myrak433]

JJ is an All Star, but All Stars are not all created equally, and it's a product of the East having weak guard depth that he's in an All Star.

I never side that all All Stars are created equally. but the fact of the matter is JJ is one and has been for a few years now. and add to the fact that only Kobe, Wade, and maybe Lebron( I only say maybe because he is really a SF not a SG, but he is without question better than JJ) better than JJ as a SG.


So no, not many promising PGs or Cs were available this past offseason, but some are available this offseason, or next, or the year after, and we'll be unable to acquire any of them because Joe ****ing Johnson is getting paid more than LeBron James, Dwyane Wade, Chris Paul, and Deron Williams.

Joe is not the problem, even though he is over paid but he isn't the only NBA player to ever be overpaid nor will he be the last. The problem is we don't have a legitimate Center or starting caliber point guard. and Marivn Williams he is the one that is really over paid with what he produces on the court. if we had someone like steve Nash JJ would be worth ever penny he is paid.... well that maybe a stretch but it wouldn't seem as bad.

That you seriously think removing JJ from this team would make us comparable to a 13 win team means that your opinion is so far off base that it's actually kind of pathetic.


why is that so hard to believe that is what we were before we got JJ

[Skyhawk1]

... and I remember people saying that Horford was just a good role player. Since his first season, even our first playoff game back in Boston Horford stood out to me. What makes him so valuable is the way he plays the game. Let me break it down for you:
1. He can be very productive without having the ball in his hands. JJ can NOT.
2. He doesn't rely solely on athleticism(J. Smith) . He's all about fundamentals.
3. He's a team player. Just notice how many times he will pass the ball back to a guard if he's not in good position. Smith will put it up.
4. He can play defense, both individual and team.

... and we waited untill before the deadline to give him 12M/season extension.

[D21]

Being already near the LT threshold mean that not keeping Joe ans singing Mathews for example would have only 6M of cap space next summer.
So it was not the best case.

But what I don't like is the first second of FA offer.
Why every other teams got TPE and sometimes picks, and ATL would have not getting anything.
There were more chance of Joe leaving with a sign-&-trade than seeing him leaving for nothing, and the other team would also have prefer a sign-&-trade, to keep room for another player, a real Max player.

I don't see a team giving Joe the Max with their cap room without a sign-&-trade, and I don't see Joe leaving for nothing, and not getting his 6yrs and 10.5% increase.

And even if he would have walked for nothing, if you manage a team that never pay LT, you don't give 20M/yr to a man that is not the clearly the best player of your team, not a true leader, and who did not sell tickets like guys making less money.

That you seriously think removing JJ from this team would make us comparable to a 13 win team means that your opinion is so far off base that it's actually kind of pathetic.

why is that so hard to believe that is what we were before we got JJ

Don't you remember that even after Joe came here for 14M/yr, the team was bad ?
Don't you remember that the higher improvement came when Horford was a rookie, and more when Bibby came here ?

Seeing this team turning into a real playoffs contender only when Bibby came here just proves what Joe is : not the guy who made this team a playoffs contender.
A part of, yes, and a main part, yes, but it's definitely not Joe himself who put the team on a higher level.

I don't say he's a bad player, just that the only case where is paid 20M/yr without creating a big problem is in DAL, LAL, ORL... here, it just kill the team.

[myrak433]

Being already near the LT threshold mean that not keeping Joe ans singing Mathews for example would have only 6M of cap space next summer.
So it was not the best case.

But what I don't like is the first second of FA offer.
Why every other teams got TPE and sometimes picks, and ATL would have not getting anything.
There were more chance of Joe leaving with a sign-&-trade than seeing him leaving for nothing, and the other team would also have prefer a sign-&-trade, to keep room for another player, a real Max player.

I don't see a team giving Joe the Max with their cap room without a sign-&-trade, and I don't see Joe leaving for nothing, and not getting his 6yrs and 10.5% increase.

And even if he would have walked for nothing, if you manage a team that never pay LT, you don't give 20M/yr to a man that is not the clearly the best player of your team, not a true leader, and who did not sell tickets like guys making less money.

That you seriously think removing JJ from this team would make us comparable to a 13 win team means that your opinion is so far off base that it's actually kind of pathetic.

why is that so hard to believe that is what we were before we got JJ

Don't you remember that even after Joe came here for 14M/yr, the team was bad ?
Don't you remember that the higher improvement came when Horford was a rookie, and more when Bibby came here ?

Seeing this team turning into a real playoffs contender only when Bibby came here just proves what Joe is : not the guy who made this team a playoffs contender.
A part of, yes, and a main part, yes, but it's definitely not Joe himself who put the team on a higher level.

I don't say he's a bad player, just that the only case where is paid 20M/yr without creating a big problem is in DAL, LAL, ORL... here, it just kill the team.

why are certain people so hard on JJ. his the best player on this team. he is the only player that opposing team game plan on stopping, as soon as JJ has the ball he is doubled. why is that? they don't double Smoove often, I rarely see Horford Doubled. If JJ saw single coverages all the time he would average at least 20 ppg, oops he does that with the double team.

[azuresou1]

LOL. LeBron, Kobe, and Wade don't get doubled all that often, and you're claiming Joe gets doubled nonstop? XFD

If Horford saw the number of FGAs JJ gets, he'd average more PPG than JJ does.