[Camelo Thread Part 17] - Denver makes trade offer p58

[The Rebel]

Do you think you guys are winning it all this year?

I think if the Nuggets get healthy and get their heads on straight they have a pretty good chance, now with the way the season has gone, and the health I doubt they really have a chance unless they make a move to get a good big to go with Nene.

[The Rebel]

Denver undoubtedly is asking the highest price in history for a player. I can't think of a steeper price ever. Knicks should string them along and drop them last minute. Denver GM has basically got himself fired already. He has the rep as the most unreasonable GM in the NBA. How are you going to ask for 3 studs and 2 first rounders for a guy your going to lose anyway.

Kareem brought back 2 all stars and a starter, when he was traded in his prime. KG brought back 4 young role players with potential (including a 16 and 11 3rd year big), plus cap relief, a lotto pick, and another 1st. Denver is not even asking for packages that compare with that.

[Staruk]

Do you think you guys are winning it all this year?

I think if the Nuggets get healthy and get their heads on straight they have a pretty good chance, now with the way the season has gone, and the health I doubt they really have a chance unless they make a move to get a good big to go with Nene.

LOL...nice knee slapper.

[seren]

I think if we reach an agreement with Denver, I can see Melo negotiating a contract (in the extend and trade) that leaves room enough to get another MAX guy in 2012. I don't think he'd be opposed. He knows what we are trying to do and that he is not the final piece. He said he isn't basing his decisions on money. Let's see.

I am not a 100% on this, but my understanding is that you cannot get a pay cut on extension.

[thehandler3]

I think if we reach an agreement with Denver, I can see Melo negotiating a contract (in the extend and trade) that leaves room enough to get another MAX guy in 2012. I don't think he'd be opposed. He knows what we are trying to do and that he is not the final piece. He said he isn't basing his decisions on money. Let's see.

Interesting point. We could see if Melo will "put his money where his mouth is". I doubt it happens but if he did that would tell me a lot about Melo's character when it comes to winning.

[GONYK]

I think if we reach an agreement with Denver, I can see Melo negotiating a contract (in the extend and trade) that leaves room enough to get another MAX guy in 2012. I don't think he'd be opposed. He knows what we are trying to do and that he is not the final piece. He said he isn't basing his decisions on money. Let's see.

I can also see him riding to NY on a winged Pegasus.

[god shammgod]

Mozzy and Fields must stay. Fields because he already plays like a vet and would be a good role player next to Amaremelo and Mozzy because you can't teach height. I hope that it's sufficient for Denver, I am getting the feeling they are going to be stubborn about this and may end up keeping him.

Denver isn't keeping him

i don't think so either, i keep saying it. there's no advantage for them to do so. he's already gone and they know it.

[The Rebel]

Do you think you guys are winning it all this year?

I think if the Nuggets get healthy and get their heads on straight they have a pretty good chance, now with the way the season has gone, and the health I doubt they really have a chance unless they make a move to get a good big to go with Nene.

LOL...nice knee slapper.

You realize the Nuggets were in the western conference finals with the same basic core less then 2 years ago, and have upgraded their starting SG, 4th big, backup PG, and have had JR, Melo, and Nene all dramatically improve, do you not? Fact is even with all the trade drama, and their starting PF and 3rd big having been out of the lineup for most of the season they are still 7 games above 500 even with their road struggles.

[Staruk]

I think if the Nuggets get healthy and get their heads on straight they have a pretty good chance, now with the way the season has gone, and the health I doubt they really have a chance unless they make a move to get a good big to go with Nene.

LOL...nice knee slapper.

You realize the Nuggets were in the western conference finals with the same basic core less then 2 years ago, and have upgraded their starting SG, 4th big, backup PG, and have had JR, Melo, and Nene all dramatically improve, do you not? Fact is even with all the trade drama, and their starting PF and 3rd big having been out of the lineup for most of the season they are still 7 games above 500 even with their road struggles.

Now I know why people often say you are delusional. YOU HAVE LITTLE TO NO SHOT! You 'aint beating SA, LA, Boston etc. Just stop it!

In other news...if my aunt had a **** she'd be my uncle.

[shrink]

Denver undoubtedly is asking the highest price in history for a player. I can't think of a steeper price ever. Knicks should string them along and drop them last minute. Denver GM has basically got himself fired already. He has the rep as the most unreasonable GM in the NBA. How are you going to ask for 3 studs and 2 first rounders for a guy your going to lose anyway.

Kareem brought back 2 all stars and a starter, when he was traded in his prime. KG brought back 4 young role players with potential (including a 16 and 11 3rd year big), plus cap relief, a lotto pick, and another 1st. Denver is not even asking for packages that compare with that.

On draft night in 1993, ORL traded #1 pick Chris Webber for #3 pick Penny Hardaway and three unprotected future 1sts.

However, none of Webber, KG, or Kareem might walk for nothing, so their teams were in a good position to trade.

[thehandler3]

You realize the Nuggets were in the western conference finals with the same basic core less then 2 years ago, and have upgraded their starting SG, 4th big, backup PG, and have had JR, Melo, and Nene all dramatically improve, do you not? Fact is even with all the trade drama, and their starting PF and 3rd big having been out of the lineup for most of the season they are still 7 games above 500 even with their road struggles.

I'll conceide that Nene has improved and is now a legit elite Center. But I don't think Melo has improved that much and JR hasn't improved at all. This has been JR's worst season since his second year in the league statistically and there aren't many specific things I can cite in Melo's game to say that he's "dramatically improved." Denver's a pretty good team but there problems remain the same. No defense and knuckleheadedness. Your starting PG (Billups) is also "dramtically" worse than he was in '09 when he made a run for MVP. Birdman and Kenyon's health has been an issue as well and could easily flair up again as the season goes on.

The highest I can see Denver in the most optimistic outlook of the team is 4th in the West. You guys would have no chance against the Lakers and San Antonio in a series. You could probably beat Dallas but it'd be a hell of a series and I'd give them the sight edge. That goes without even talking about the teams in the East.

[kosmovitelli]

Mozzy and Fields must stay. Fields because he already plays like a vet and would be a good role player next to Amaremelo and Mozzy because you can't teach height. I hope that it's sufficient for Denver, I am getting the feeling they are going to be stubborn about this and may end up keeping him.

Denver isn't keeping him

As the Nuggets are asking for a lot from us (Chandler, Gallo, Moz, Fields, a first round pick) and they did the same with the Nets, it probably means they want to keep Melo (unless they're offered a sweetheart deal). Melo even encouraged them by saying he will consider signing an extension if the Nuggets don't trade him.

Melo didn't help us at all with his flip-flop. If I was the Nuggets GM/Owner I would definitely call his bluff unless a fantastic trade proposal is submitted by another team.

I know teams often set the bar high when they start negotiating with others teams but the price the Nuggets are asking for didn't change in two months. Wether it's the Nets or the Knicks, they don't want to make a trade unless they can rape the other team.

[The Rebel]

Now I know why people often say you are delusional. YOU HAVE LITTLE TO NO SHOT! You 'aint beating SA, LA, Boston etc. Just stop it!

In other news...if my aunt had a **** she'd be my uncle.

Oh I also forgot to mention the Nuggets were on pace for a 62 win season just last year, prior to Karl getting sick and lawson and KMart going out with injuries after the all star break.

[GONYK]

Mozzy and Fields must stay. Fields because he already plays like a vet and would be a good role player next to Amaremelo and Mozzy because you can't teach height. I hope that it's sufficient for Denver, I am getting the feeling they are going to be stubborn about this and may end up keeping him.

Denver isn't keeping him

As the Nuggets are asking for a lot from us (Chandler, Gallo, Moz, Fields, a first round pick) and they did the same with the Nets, it probably means they want to keep Melo (unless they're offered a sweetheart deal). Melo even encouraged them by saying he will consider signing an extension if the Nuggets don't trade him.

Melo didn't help us at all with his flip-flop. If I was the Nuggets GM/Owner I would definitely call his bluff unless a fantastic trade proposal is submitted by another team.

I know teams often set the bar high when they start negotiating with others teams but the price the Nuggets are asking for didn't change in two months. Wether it's the Nets or the Knicks, they don't want to make a trade unless they can rape the other team.

Of course they'd like to keep him, but they have to weigh that against the risk of losing him, and the likelihood he would re-sign. I think, given the nature of how the season has gone, they can't be too confident in either situation working out in their favor.

[knicks9784]

Mozzy and Fields must stay. Fields because he already plays like a vet and would be a good role player next to Amaremelo and Mozzy because you can't teach height. I hope that it's sufficient for Denver, I am getting the feeling they are going to be stubborn about this and may end up keeping him.

Denver isn't keeping him

As the Nuggets are asking for a lot from us (Chandler, Gallo, Moz, Fields, a first round pick) and they did the same with the Nets, it probably means they want to keep Melo (unless they're offered a sweetheart deal). Melo even encouraged them by saying he will consider signing an extension if the Nuggets don't trade him.

Melo didn't help us at all with his flip-flop. If I was the Nuggets GM/Owner I would definitely call his bluff unless a fantastic trade proposal is submitted by another team.

I know teams often set the bar high when they start negotiating with others teams but the price the Nuggets are asking for didn't change in two months. Wether it's the Nets or the Knicks, they don't want to make a trade unless they can rape the other team.

if melo was really concerned about the extension and his money he wouldve signed it already. its been on the table for well over a year i think. denver will trade him before the deadline, they cant risk having him walk for nothing, while still paying the luxury tax.

[The Rebel]

You realize the Nuggets were in the western conference finals with the same basic core less then 2 years ago, and have upgraded their starting SG, 4th big, backup PG, and have had JR, Melo, and Nene all dramatically improve, do you not? Fact is even with all the trade drama, and their starting PF and 3rd big having been out of the lineup for most of the season they are still 7 games above 500 even with their road struggles.

I'll conceide that Nene has improved and is now a legit elite Center. But I don't think Melo has improved that much and JR hasn't improved at all. This has been JR's worst season since his second year in the league statistically and there aren't many specific things I can cite in Melo's game to say that he's "dramatically improved." Denver's a pretty good team but there problems remain the same. No defense and knuckleheadedness. Your starting PG (Billups) is also "dramtically" worse than he was in '09 when he made a run for MVP. Birdman and Kenyon's health has been an issue as well and could easily flair up again as the season goes on.

The highest I can see Denver in the most optimistic outlook of the team is 4th in the West. You guys would have no chance against the Lakers and San Antonio in a series. You could probably beat Dallas but it'd be a hell of a series and I'd give them the sight edge. That goes without even talking about the teams in the East.

That's the problem with stats they do not tell you the whole story, JR has not been as good of a shooter, but has been a much better all around player, fact is most Nuggets fans do not want to see him traded.

As for Melo, this year he has looked like crap, I wonder what that is about?

Billup's demise has also been dramatically overstated, he has put up some of the best advanced stats of his career, and outside of a slow start he has been the same player he was when he came back to Denver.

Defense is a problem, and that comes from not working as a team.

As for being Knickleheads and injury problems, I stated basically the same in my original post, which is why the Nuggets would have to make a move to get another good big, and get back on the same page.

[god shammgod]

Of course they'd like to keep him, but they have to weigh that against the risk of losing him, and the likelihood he would re-sign. I think, given the nature of how the season has gone, they can't be too confident in either situation working out in their favor.

they used the nets to try to establish the cost of melo to other teams, they knew he probably wasn't going there. so now they're asking for a similar deal from us but they know they won't get it. this plan has worked though, they'll get us to pay more then we would have liked.

[Knicksin2011]

they used the nets to try to establish the cost of melo to other teams, they knew he probably wasn't going there. so now they're asking for a similar deal from us but they know they won't get it. this plan has worked though, they'll get us to pay more then we would have liked.

They successfully established a cost of Melo for teams that would not have a shot at him in free agency. The "deal" with the Nets did not establish a cost for the Knicks (or Lakers for that matter)

[thehandler3]

You realize the Nuggets were in the western conference finals with the same basic core less then 2 years ago, and have upgraded their starting SG, 4th big, backup PG, and have had JR, Melo, and Nene all dramatically improve, do you not? Fact is even with all the trade drama, and their starting PF and 3rd big having been out of the lineup for most of the season they are still 7 games above 500 even with their road struggles.

I'll conceide that Nene has improved and is now a legit elite Center. But I don't think Melo has improved that much and JR hasn't improved at all. This has been JR's worst season since his second year in the league statistically and there aren't many specific things I can cite in Melo's game to say that he's "dramatically improved." Denver's a pretty good team but there problems remain the same. No defense and knuckleheadedness. Your starting PG (Billups) is also "dramtically" worse than he was in '09 when he made a run for MVP. Birdman and Kenyon's health has been an issue as well and could easily flair up again as the season goes on.

The highest I can see Denver in the most optimistic outlook of the team is 4th in the West. You guys would have no chance against the Lakers and San Antonio in a series. You could probably beat Dallas but it'd be a hell of a series and I'd give them the sight edge. That goes without even talking about the teams in the East.

That's the problem with stats they do not tell you the whole story, JR has not been as good of a shooter, but has been a much better all around player, fact is most Nuggets fans do not want to see him traded.

As for Melo, this year he has looked like crap, I wonder what that is about?

Billup's demise has also been dramatically overstated, he has put up some of the best advanced stats of his career, and outside of a slow start he has been the same player he was when he came back to Denver.

Defense is a problem, and that comes from not working as a team.

As for being Knickleheads and injury problems, I stated basically the same in my original post, which is why the Nuggets would have to make a move to get another good big, and get back on the same page.

I don't watch Denver enough to make a case for JR being worse other than the stats but you have to admit it is alarming that his numbers are so down and shot selection appears to still be a problem due to his low %s. That's fine I know Melo has been "distracted" perhaps, but then you can't say in the same breath that he's "dramatically better." There's ZERO evidence of that. If anything I could make a better case to ask you what makes you think he would all of a sudden become "interested" knowing that he has one foot out the door? I didn't say Billups is on a "demise" I just said he's dramtically worse, he's still pretty good. But he had an MVP caliber year in '09, he's not even an all-star this year. Is that not "dramatically worse"? You could say "oh if we get our heads together and stay healthy....." but that has NEVER happened. You had one great run when Chauncey swooped in a saved your season but the honeymoon is over now and it's unrealistic to think you can "catch lightning in a bottle" again .You guys are what you are. What makes you think you guys are all of a sudden gonna "band together and make a miraculous run." Like I said where's the evidence of that.

[moocow007]

@ Moo
I don't consider JR's contract an issue since he's expiring. The contracts they'd push on us are Bird, Billups and Al.

Yep I'm aware. That's why if they want all this they have to give up the idea that NY will take both Bird and Al. NY, at the end of the day, needs a balanced team not just a bunch of offensive minded forwards. JR Smith and Chris Anderson provide the 2 things they will lack after this deal (one of which is a current issue) and that's defensive size up front and a SG that can shoot.