Shaq in the rafters: Who says no?

[jaypo]

I have never come across that quote from Shaq, if you can point me to an article I'd be more than happy to acknowledge my mistake.

I direct you to "The Last Season" written by Phil Jackson. It's in that book.

Joelafan, I don't "not like" Kobe as a person. Do I disagree with things he's done? Yes. I also disagree with a lot of things that Shaq has done. That doesn't mean that I don't like them. I just perfer Shaq as a person and player. It doesn't mean that I hate Kobe. It just means I favor someone else. I think Kobe is a better overall talent. And I understand some of you guys, but others, I still cannot understand. The ones that say that they hate Shaq because of his comments or the "things he did to the Lakers", yet praise Kobe's "loyalty" are my favorites.

Well Shaq acted like a little bitch and Kobe is still here putting in work on the court, all the other stuff is irrelevant to me

You see, these are the things that puzzle me about the whole situation! If Buss decided he was tired of Kobe's antics in 04 and traded him or let him walk and kept Shaq, how would your feelings be? Remember- Shaq felt betrayed by the organization at that point, and for good reason. That's why he said the "cruel" things he said. And I again mention that Kobe has said worse things about the Lakers, and he is still on the team!

So I only want someone to tell me why people blast Shaq so badly when Kobe has done things worse than Shaq has to the organization.

[Roddy]

Well, Kobe was not a saint for the Lakers too :

Sometimes the trades that aren't made turn out to be the most important. By summer 2007, Kobe Bryant had had enough with the Lakers. It had been three years since they traded Shaquille O'Neal to the Miami Heat. Bryant had finished his first post-Shaq season out of the playoffs, the first time in his career he hadn't played in the postseason, and for the next two years in a row had been eliminated in the first round by the Phoenix Suns. Bryant went on a confusing radio tour on May 31, 2007, saying he wanted to be traded, then saying he wanted to be a Laker for the rest of his career, then saying a separation was needed, all within a three-hour period. "I would like to be traded," Bryant said at the time. "And as tough as it is to say that, as tough as it is to come to that conclusion, there's no other alternative." He later said, "Promises made to make this team better have not been kept. So where does that leave me?" Bryant was booed by Lakers fans on opening night of the 2007-08 season as he dropped 45 points in a 95-93 loss to the Rockets on Oct. 30, 2007. His trade demands faded as the season progressed and the Lakers, with Derek Fisher back at point guard, showed they were better than most expected, and the demands disappeared completely when the Lakers traded for Gasol in February to return to the NBA's elite.

The Big guy did a lot of things for the community in L.A. He has a big heart off the court, and was unstoppable on the court.
Jerry Buss likes him, and Lakers fans should be proud to have the #34 in the Staples Center one day.
The NBA will miss Shaq a lot !

[jaypo]

Thanks for posting that, Roddy. That's what I've been talking about. When Shaq arrived in LA, it's what he always wanted. He was loyal to the organization as he felt that they were fair to him during the Orlando deal. But when they "betrayed" him (in his mind), he said what he felt. And to a certain extent, he was justified in doing so. It's hard to hold your tongue with someone (or organization) that you've been with for 8 years when you feel like they betrayed you.

[Vincent 666]

So I only want someone to tell me why people blast Shaq so badly when Kobe has done things worse than Shaq has to the organization.

Yet another in an endless stream of jaypo classics

[Pablo Escobar]

jaypo fact of the matter is he left I'm not going to pretend he's on this team and forget what he said like I said in a previous post he played great for us not taking away from him but Shaq fans seem to think well Kobe is nothing without him? oh really? 2 titles without him back to back means nothing, now ok lool and I don't think they should retire his jersey simply because he bashed the organization on his way out, yes Kobe said and did things as well but he's still here and brought us 2 more titles, if Shaq gets in it's not the end lol I'm not going to kill myself but if I had a choice I'd say no to the diesel, and to the guy who said the nba will miss Shaq you're right the nba will miss Shaq no doubt about it

[followwind]

So I only want someone to tell me why people blast Shaq so badly when Kobe has done things worse than Shaq has to the organization.

LMFAO.

Please, I beg you, give us one example where Kobe has done things worse than Shaq has to the organization. As far as I remembered:

Kobe never delayed his off season injury so he can rehab "during company time" because he got injured "during company time".
Kobe never used the regular season to get into shape.
Kobe never yelled "show me the money" at Dr.Buss.

I can probablly go on.

Shaq would probablly get his number retired. I think he deserves that. However, that ceremony won't, and shouldn't happen until Kobe's number is up in the rafter.

[Kilroy]

So I only want someone to tell me why people blast Shaq so badly when Kobe has done things worse than Shaq has to the organization.

LMFAO.

Please, I beg you, give us one example where Kobe has done things worse than Shaq has to the organization. As far as I remembered:

Kobe never delayed his off season injury so he can rehab "during company time" because he got injured "during company time".
Kobe never used the regular season to get into shape.
Kobe never yelled "show me the money" at Dr.Buss.

I can probablly go on.

Shaq would probablly get his number retired. I think he deserves that. However, that ceremony won't, and shouldn't happen until Kobe's number is up in the rafter.

Yeah, as someone who was tuned in for all of it, there was nothing more frustrating than watching Shaq come in out of shape and take it easy all season while others like Kobe were focused and driven. His lazy attitude was infectious... That team should have wiped the floor with most of the league, but we lost games we should have won... Including 2 finals.

People seem to look at Shaq leaving in one of 2 ways... Most seem to think Kobe ran Shaq out of town... Which is absolutely rediculous... It's too simple and NOBODY says it that was there. More people say that Shaq wanted the Lakers to pay him instead of Kobe. Which is what he did in Orlando too.

So if you leave the rediculus first option out of the equation... Kobe has done nothing to hurt this organization. Nothing he's done in his personal or professional life has negatively effected the legacy of the Lakers.

Shaq one a championship with another team, and played on another that did everything it could to knock us out of the playoffs...

The other way to think of it is that Shaq demanded a trade and was traded... End of story.

In that case, Shaq instigated the breakup of one of the most dominant tandems in NBA history.

He might-should get his number retired, but I repeat, THERE IS NO KOBE vs SHAQ COMPONENT TO THIS ARGUMENT. Just stop...

Kobe's accomplishments as a Laker and contribution to the Lakers Legacy are significantly greater.

[jaypo]

Kilroy- without starting any crap, because that's not my intention, but that has to be the worst explaination of what really happened that I ever heard!

Anyhow, I seem to have hit a nerve, and I didn't intend to. Nothing I'll say will lead to anything constructive, and it seems nobody can give me the answers I was looking for, so I'll exit the conversation. Sorry if I offended anybody. That wasn't my intention.

[Kilroy]

Kilroy- without starting any crap, because that's not my intention, but that has to be the worst explaination of what really happened that I ever heard!

Anyhow, I seem to have hit a nerve, and I didn't intend to. Nothing I'll say will lead to anything constructive, and it seems nobody can give me the answers I was looking for, so I'll exit the conversation. Sorry if I offended anybody. That wasn't my intention.

No Problem... I wasn't in anyway trying to explain what happened... In fact, I doubt more than maybe 5 people really know for sure what happened... And none of them are named Kobe Shaq or Phil Jackson... Ultimately it doesn't matter.

You in no way hit a nerve with me because I have no agenda. I think Shaq should be honored. Just not until he's done playing for our enemies and running his mouth about our organization. Sometime after he's retired and entered the hall.

I think people have answered you're questions really well, actually. It just seems like the answers aren't what you want to hear.

Shaq isn't going to be as popular with Lakers fans as Kobe right now, and he might never be. And that's fine...

My only point is that Shaq's accomplishments and failures should stand on their own.

Trying to compare him and his accomplishments with Kobe isn't going to make a better case for Shaq, because what Kobe did or didn't do, should have had little to do with what Shaq did. And if that's not the case, it says more about Shaq's character than Kobe's.

All in all, I'm a Lakers fan... To me that starts with the Wilts, Kareems, and Magics of history because that's when I became a Lakers fan. The manufactured drama around Shaq and Kobe really isn't that interesting to me.

The day they retired Kap's big No. 33 and raised it to the rafters of the forum, I cried like a baby. Magic's effected me only slightly less. Kobe's won't even come close, and I may not even notice Shaq's.

[jaypo]

Kilroy- without starting any crap, because that's not my intention, but that has to be the worst explaination of what really happened that I ever heard!

Anyhow, I seem to have hit a nerve, and I didn't intend to. Nothing I'll say will lead to anything constructive, and it seems nobody can give me the answers I was looking for, so I'll exit the conversation. Sorry if I offended anybody. That wasn't my intention.

No Problem... I wasn't in anyway trying to explain what happened... In fact, I doubt more than maybe 5 people really know for sure what happened... And none of them are named Kobe Shaq or Phil Jackson... Ultimately it doesn't matter.

You in no way hit a nerve with me because I have no agenda. I think Shaq should be honored. Just not until he's done playing for our enemies and running his mouth about our organization. Sometime after he's retired and entered the hall.

I think people have answered you're questions really well, actually. It just seems like the answers aren't what you want to hear.

Shaq isn't going to be as popular with Lakers fans as Kobe right now, and he might never be. And that's fine...

My only point is that Shaq's accomplishments and failures should stand on their own.

Trying to compare him and his accomplishments with Kobe isn't going to make a better case for Shaq, because what Kobe did or didn't do, should have had little to do with what Shaq did. And if that's not the case, it says more about Shaq's character than Kobe's.

All in all, I'm a Lakers fan... To me that starts with the Wilts, Kareems, and Magics of history because that's when I became a Lakers fan. The manufactured drama around Shaq and Kobe really isn't that interesting to me.

The day they retired Kap's big No. 33 and raised it to the rafters of the forum, I cried like a baby. Magic's effected me only slightly less. Kobe's won't even come close, and I may not even notice Shaq's.

As a true Laker fan, what's your take on Mikan? How come people rarely recognize him as the great that he was? I mean, the league had to reconstruct the game because of him. He was Wilt before Wilt! Yet, he rarely gets mentioned. What do you think his place in history should be?

[Kilroy]

Mikan is one of the greats of the organization and I've watched quite a few tapes of him playing... But to be honest, he wasn't the most athletic guy in the world compared to today.

It was a different league, a different game, and a different time. Mikan is a big part of what the Lakers are, no question. But if you really start researching all the players that played for the Lakers, you'll find there were a lot of hugely successful players from that time. It's really pretty interesting and impressive.

So Mikan is significant but to me his on a tier lower than Wilt, Kap, Magic, West, Baylor, etc.

[joelafan]

Honest laker fans will say what shaq did was great. Which i agree 100%. If he didnt become so unpopluar with the laker fans and taking shots at dr buss we probally would of never questioned it. The fact hes in boston doesnt really concern me. That fact he says "this is the greatest team i played for". He knows the boston and la riviarly ,there was no need to say that.I think his latest comments is probally the more impactful ones he has said. Calling out kobe or whatever he was trying to prove was dumb but laker fans will forget that. Its how you exit your career. With grace or complete agroance. He hasnt done a very good job.

[jaypo]

Honest laker fans will say what shaq did was great. Which i agree 100%. If he didnt become so unpopluar with the laker fans and taking shots at dr buss we probally would of never questioned it. The fact hes in boston doesnt really concern me. That fact he says "this is the greatest team i played for". He knows the boston and la riviarly ,there was no need to say that.I think his latest comments is probally the more impactful ones he has said. Calling out kobe or whatever he was trying to prove was dumb but laker fans will forget that. Its how you exit your career. With grace or complete agroance. He hasnt done a very good job.

But didn't he mean "greatest team" in a sense of players on the court? I don't think he meant "greatest organization". I think he was referring to the talent around him and not the organization.

[joelafan]

Its a gray area as of now. But i took at as greatest team he ever played for meaning he doesnt vaule the championships he won with the lakers. Someone in the media should ask him what it he really meant. So we wouldnt have speculation but as of now thats what it sounds like to me.

[jaypo]

Its a gray area as of now. But i took at as greatest team he ever played for meaning he doesnt vaule the championships he won with the lakers. Someone in the media should ask him what it he really meant. So we wouldnt have speculation but as of now thats what it sounds like to me.

I took it as best 1-5 on the court. Because in the past, he's specifically mentioned organizations when tallking about them. If he did mean organization, I can understand LA fans' anger. But I truly think he meant team as far as players on the court. People don't realize that the reason he lashed out at the Lakers was because he signed with them because of their faith in him. But when the feud wend down and the let Jackson go, he felt betrayed. I understand his frustration. Did he handle it correctly? Probably not. But I understand why he said the things he said.

PS- good input on Mikan, Kilroy. I wonder what he would have been like if he had played in the 90's!

[Kilroy]

Its a gray area as of now. But i took at as greatest team he ever played for meaning he doesnt vaule the championships he won with the lakers. Someone in the media should ask him what it he really meant. So we wouldnt have speculation but as of now thats what it sounds like to me.

I took it as best 1-5 on the court. Because in the past, he's specifically mentioned organizations when tallking about them. If he did mean organization, I can understand LA fans' anger. But I truly think he meant team as far as players on the court. People don't realize that the reason he lashed out at the Lakers was because he signed with them because of their faith in him. But when the feud wend down and the let Jackson go, he felt betrayed. I understand his frustration. Did he handle it correctly? Probably not. But I understand why he said the things he said.

PS- good input on Mikan, Kilroy. I wonder what he would have been like if he had played in the 90's!

That's purely spin and supposition...

Shaq has done nothing but make contradictory statements about those decisions so how anyone could have a good idea of what he was thinking is beyond me.

The only facts we have about the situation bringing him to LA and him leaving have to do with money...

He signed in LA because LA's one of the biggest stages in the league and because we were willing to pay him more than he was offered in Orlando. Orlando's GM has said Shaq demanded a contract that would have prevented them from keeping him and Penny who I believe they'd already paid. They had a decision to make and chose Penny.

He left because he wasn't going to get paid what he thought he deserved. He was demanding a contract that would have prevented LA paying Kobe his first real NBA contract. They say he found out what they were going to pay Kobe and went and demanded an extension for more money. They had a decision to make and they chose to pay Kobe.

The only feelings involved were what his wallet felt like. Unless you believe the rumors, in which case you'd have to infer that his enormous ego was also a big factor.

All the rest was just Shaq being the media-whore he is.

Mikan would likely have been a PF in the 90's and I actually think he would have done pretty well at that because he had a good to great face-up jumper as well as good post moves. I think he'd have been a Duncan-like player in the second tier below him and the Malones of the world.

[CodyB_]

How could anybody say no?

Regardless of all the **** he talked, all that happened after he left and where his career has gone, the guy was our MVP for 3 championship seasons. There's no doubt his number doesn't get retired when all is said and done. This guy is up with Kareem, Magic, Kobe, West and Baylor for all the time Lakers team. I actually think he was the best centre the Lakers ever had.

[LAKESHOW]

first of all, no need to be sour about it. the facts are facts. the dude brought championships here and was captain of those teams. some of you say, "well, he left and jumps from team to team" but how we forget that KOBE was ready to jump ship and said he was a goner to chicago with his wife house shopping already, so those things happen. some say kobe first, shaq second. REALLY? that shows small mindedness and petty dealings from the classiest franchise in sports. if he retires, he retires, get it done. if kobe is still playing, he would applaud and be happy for him as well, they both were on those championship teams and won.

it is what it is. SHAQ was an Atype personality who was gettin up there in years and was taking a beating, remember brad miller and the bulls for example? But having 2 somethin had to give, KOBE was coming into his own and he needed his space and his Atype personality won out with youth and singlemindedness in focus and desire.

but when shaq retires, get it done regardless of timing. one has to see what was happening to our 2 SUPERSTARS in context and at that time, we were killing ourselves from within in those championship years and it was ugly and embarassing all the way around. not one over the other, it was all around stinky.

[Pablo Escobar]

first of all, no need to be sour about it. the facts are facts. the dude brought championships here and was captain of those teams. some of you say, "well, he left and jumps from team to team" but how we forget that KOBE was ready to jump ship and said he was a goner to chicago with his wife house shopping already, so those things happen. some say kobe first, shaq second. REALLY? that shows small mindedness and petty dealings from the classiest franchise in sports. if he retires, he retires, get it done. if kobe is still playing, he would applaud and be happy for him as well, they both were on those championship teams and won.

it is what it is. SHAQ was an Atype personality who was gettin up there in years and was taking a beating, remember brad miller and the bulls for example? But having 2 somethin had to give, KOBE was coming into his own and he needed his space and his Atype personality won out with youth and singlemindedness in focus and desire.

but when shaq retires, get it done regardless of timing. one has to see what was happening to our 2 SUPERSTARS in context and at that time, we were killing ourselves from within in those championship years and it was ugly and embarassing all the way around. not one over the other, it was all around stinky.

Did he jump ship though? he stayed and won 2 titles for us unlike Shaq who talked crap after he left