Name one game that would radically alter the perception of

[sp6r=underrated]

a player if the outcome of the game was different.

A Few Rules:

1. no changing the outcome of blowouts. For purposes of this thread the game actually had to have been in doubt in the 4th quarter. This is about close games. i.e., changing a 87-82 win to an 87-82 loss. This is not about changing a 107-72 loss to a win.

2. No changing at all the performance of the player in question. No explanation needed.

3. Try to name two games for each player. One negative change. One positive change.

4. I assume everyone will be talking about playoff games. If you change a game 7 loss for a team in the 2nd round to a win feel free to explain what you think would have happened had that team advanced. However, you can’t say definitively this team would have accomplished X.

Here are the players

Bryant
Duncan
Garnett
Jordan
K. Malone
Nash
Nowitzki
Olajuwon
O’Neal

I focused on recent players because people have better memories of the games in question and easier to find info about the game online. Also you don’t have to do all of the players on the list.
___________
I’ll give you an example of what I am talking about by picking two games for my current favorite player Duncan.

A game that would increase the esteem Duncan is held in would be if Manu hadn’t committed that foul in the final minute of game 7 vs Dallas and San Antonio holds onto win. He had an absolute monster game 7 despite playing injured all year (42/15/6/3/1) and carried the Spurs from a 20 point deficit to a win.

IMO Duncan would have had great success against a depleted Suns frontline and the Spurs would have at least gotten to the finals four times in five years and would have had a great shot at becoming the only team besides Russell’s Celtics to win four titles in five years.

An outcome you could have changed to lower the esteem Duncan is held in would be game 5 Detroit. He played extremely poor in that game and a lot of the series. Detroit holds onto win that game and takes game 6 I expect there would be a lot more criticism of Duncan. I also expect a lot more people would make hay out of lockout/injuries/Donaghy etc.

[JordansBulls]

a player if the outcome of the game was different.

A Few Rules:

1. no changing the outcome of blowouts. For purposes of this thread the game actually had to have been in doubt in the 4th quarter. This is about close games. i.e., changing a 87-82 win to an 87-82 loss. This is not about changing a 107-72 loss to a win.

2. No changing at all the performance of the player in question. No explanation needed.

3. Try to name two games for each player. One negative change. One positive change.

4. I assume everyone will be talking about playoff games. If you change a game 7 loss for a team in the 2nd round to a win feel free to explain what you think would have happened had that team advanced. However, you can’t say definitively this team would have accomplished X.

Here are the players

Bryant
Duncan
Garnett
Jordan
K. Malone
Nash
Nowitzki
Olajuwon
O’Neal

I focused on recent players because people have better memories of the games in question and easier to find info about the game online. Also you don’t have to do all of the players on the list.
___________
I’ll give you an example of what I am talking about by picking two games for my current favorite player Duncan.

A game that would increase the esteem Duncan is held in would be if Manu hadn’t committed that foul in the final minute of game 7 vs Dallas and San Antonio holds onto win. He had an absolute monster game 7 despite playing injured all year (42/15/6/3/1) and carried the Spurs from a 20 point deficit to a win.

IMO Duncan would have had great success against a depleted Suns frontline and the Spurs would have at least gotten to the finals four times in five years and would have had a great shot at becoming the only team besides Russell’s Celtics to win four titles in five years.

An outcome you could have changed to lower the esteem Duncan is held in would be game 5 Detroit. He played extremely poor in that game and a lot of the series. Detroit holds onto win that game and takes game 6 I expect there would be a lot more criticism of Duncan. I also expect a lot more people would make hay out of lockout/injuries/Donaghy etc.

I'll do the Negatives for each for one game.

For MJ

1. 1989 Game 5 1st round vs Cleveland. If MJ misses that shot it takes longer for the Bulls to gel and impedes our progress.

For Hakeem

1. 1995 1st round Game 5 vs Utah on the road. Jazz were up like 7 or 8 in the 4th and Houston came back and won. If they lose that they never make the finals.


For Dirk

1. Postive Change: Pretty much win that game 3 in Miami and he has the title.
Negative Change: If they lost that Game 7 vs the spurs in 2006 when up 24.


For Kobe

1. If they lose Game 7 vs Boston at home


For Duncan

1. If Fisher doesn't hit that shot in 2004, the Spurs possibly win it all.


For Garnett

1. Play better in game 7 of the finals.


For Malone

1. Win Game 5 of the 1st round series vs Houston in 1995 and they possibly can win it all.


For Shaq

1. Game 7 lost to Detroit in 2005


For Nash

1. I would say either the suspension game in 2007 vs the Spurs or the game 1 where he had to come out in the final minutes in a close game having blood on him.

[Point forward]

Tough but interesting, here my shot...

Garnett's esteem
+ grows: if he had willed the Cs to the win in Game 7 of the 2010 Finals instead of just grabbing 3 rebounds
- shrinks: if the Kings somehow had beaten him in the 2004 2nd Round Game 7 (easy to imagine, Peja e.g. had a terrible game), he would have been branded the eternal playoffs underachiever, see TMac

Jordan's esteem
+ grows: if he had beaten the Pistons in 1990 in Game 7, he could have won his 1st ring a year earlier vs Portland (=MJ's fav victim)
- shrinks: if he simply plays "normally" in the Flu Game instead of scoring 38 , and the Jazz win the game and the ring

Shaq's esteem
+ grows: Nick Anderson makes those FTs, and he leads the Magic to their 1st ring as the man
- shrinks: if Robert Horry does not make that 3 in Game 4, I see the Kings beating a prime Shaq

Karl Malone'e esteem
+ grows: if he grows a pair and outplays MJ both in the Flu Game (Game 4) and in Game 6 when he had the championship deciding TO
- shrinks: if Stockton does not nail that 3 vs Houston and the Jazz manage to bungle that series

[Dr Positivity]

Kobe's is DEFINITELY last year's Game 7. The Lakers losing that puts a MAJOR hurt on his legacy. All-time Game 7 chokebomb and everyone talks about the Lakers fluking into a title by KG's injury.

[DreamsRockets]

in malone's case, game 1 of the 97 finals would definitely increase his reputation and shed some of the "choker" label. i dont think the missed FTs would be remembered my people if the Jazz win. that and game 7 against seattle in the 96 wcf where he folded under pressure. sonics started counting down from 10 everytime malone would take a ft and i think he ended up shooting 5/11 or something. the jazz win and malone isnt really questioned by the fans or media because they'd be in the finals and he played really well in the games prior to that. hornacek torching hawkins had a lot to do with it as well but thats besides the point.

a game that would hurt his legacy would be the jazz losing game 5 against houston in 1998. the jazz lose that and they become the second team after seattle to lose as the 1st seed to an 8th seed. malone played big in that game.

a game that would help nowitzki's legacy is obviously game 3 in the finals but this is one of the instances where you have to change nowitzki's performance in order to change the game. he hits the FT, the game goes to OT and dallas would have a chance of regrouping and possibly clinching the game. once they go up 3-0, its over. a game that hurts his legacy is game 7 against the spurs that year. the mavs lose and you'd hear dirk cant even get to the finals to this day.

hakeem has 1 moment that can really change his legacy for the good and thats game 7 against seattle in 93. first of all, i think the rockets should've won that series, anyway. we should've had homecourt but we got robbed in the last game of the season against san antonio.

Paper: HOUSTON CHRONICLE
Date: MON 04/26/1993
Section: Sports
Page: 1
Edition: 2 STAR

Drama, trauma as Rockets fall/Spurs eke out 119-117 win

By EDDIE SEFKO
Staff

SAN ANTONIO -- In a game that refused to die against a team that had more lives than any cat, the Rockets were dealt a disheartening and controversial 119-117 overtime setback by the San Antonio Spurs in the regular-season finale Sunday night.

The Rockets, who lost a chance to win the home-court advantage in the second round against Seattle because of the loss, fell behind 113-109 when David Robinson scored the first two baskets of overtime. They never fully recovered.

The Rockets had a final chance to tie when, down 117-115, Scott Brooks missed an off-balance jumper from the corner with 10 seconds to go in OT. Avery Johnson hit two free throws for the Spurs with 2.5 seconds to go to clinch the win.

The Rockets finished the season with a two-game losing streak, but how they lost Sunday's thriller will be discussed for days.

Robinson tipped in a shot at the end of regulation to force overtime. The missed shot came from Dale Ellis and television replays showed Robinson's tip appeared to come after the buzzer.

Rudy Tomjanovich was almost off the court running to the locker room. San Antonio coach John Lucas was pumping his arms and dancing. Matt Bullard, who had hit the 3-point shot that put the Rockets up 109-017 with 5.9 seconds to go, was kicking the scorer's table.

we win that game and we have homecourt against seattle which would be enough to beat them. remember no team won on the road in that series. even ignoring that, there were 3 calls that went against the rockets down the stretch in that game 7. so lets the rockets win, i think we go on to beat phoenix in the wcf. we beat them in 94 and 95 although to be fair, phoenix was a better team in 93 with barkley on a mission. but, a big reason for the suns taking us to 7 in 94 and 95 was KJ totally ripping our defense to shreds. 93 KJ wasnt at the top of his game (injuries) and struggled relative to his standards. i'm not sure if we beat the bulls (i certainly think we COULD) but if we do hakeem would never have the "2 rings without jordan," "never beat the best player of his era" etc held against him.

as for games that would hurt his legacy, there's countless games you could pick from because we won so many games that went down the wire. 95 1st round game 5 @ utah, 95 wcsf game 5 @ phx, 95 wcsf game 7 @ phx, 94 finals game 6 @ hou, 94 wcsf game 7 @ hou. we lose one of these and hakeem wont be considered better than his contemporaries (malone, robinson, barkley, ewing).

[Point forward]

Hakeem would be considered Top 3 GOAT material if he had somehow beaten the Celtics in 1986. In the make-or-break Game 4, he only scored 20 points and was outscored by Robert Parish.

On the other hand, his legacy would take a hit if John Starks simply nails that 3 in Game 6 and the Knicks win it all.

[DreamsRockets]

Hakeem would be considered Top 3 GOAT material if he had somehow beaten the Celtics in 1986. In the make-or-break Game 4, he only scored 20 points and was outscored by Robert Parish.

On the other hand, his legacy would take a hit if John Starks simply nails that 3 in Game 6 and the Knicks win it all.

well, according to the OP, you cant change a player's performance to change the outcome of the game. so Olajuwon still scores 20 points in that game 4. i think the 93 scenario that i aforementioned would help his legacy even moreso than winning the 86 finals.

[sp6r=underrated]

I haven't finished making my picks for the player but here are some other games that come to mind.

Negative

Hakeem: Jazz win game 5 of the 95 WCFR. A large part of Hakeem's legacy is the series against Shaq and especially the series against Robinson. If Utah holds on and wins game 5 against Houston there is no demolition of Robinson or sweep of Orlando. A huge part of his legacy doesn't exist.

Shaq: Blazers hold on in game 7. A lot of Shaq critics already think he could only win a title with an elite wing but the 00 year as Kobe was clearly a year away. Portland holds on and this camp will be larger and much more vocal.

Nash: lakers win game 6 in overtime in 06. A loss in the first round really strengthens the group that feels Nash was never really an MVP type player. Nash carrying a weakened Suns crew to the WCF is a large part of his legacy. You can expect there would be a lot more Amar'e was the suns best player if they fail to make it out of the first round.

[sp6r=underrated]

you cant change a player's performance to change the outcome of the game.

to be clear, this is critical for the thread.

[Dr Positivity]

I would still take the 94 Game 7 for Hakeem. Rockets lose the Jazz or Suns Game 7s in 95 and there's still a good chance one of Barkley, Malone, Shaq wins that title - which obviously hurts him, but not as directly as Ewing or Robinson getting one, IMO. I think especially the Knicks final it'd look like Ewing got the upper hand over him. Even if Hakeem matched him with a title the next year, the H2H and more exposure playing for the Knicks/getting them a title after 20 years, and having the lights of thsoe Jordan series - would possibly make Ewing the alpha dog of those 3 Cs

[Dr Positivity]

The 05 Game 7 would change a lot for Billups IMO. Back to back titles is a big deal. The Pistons legacy would be like the Bad Boys with Billups as a poor man's Isiah

[drza]

Interesting topic. I'm going to go outside the box a bit and pick a regular season game for Garnett:

*March 18, 2005 the Wolves lost in Memphis 88 - 83. Garnett had 30 points, 19 boards and 6 assists in the loss. If Minnesota wins this game and everything else stayed the same that regular season:

--> The Wolves finish 45 - 37, edging Memphis (now 44-38) for the 8th playoff slot.

--> Missing those playoffs really hurt. KG was at his peak, coming off 3-straight monster regular seasons, 2 of which came with attending monster postseason success. And they would have been playing the Suns, a team against whom Garnett tended to have ridiculous games. Just that season he set his career-high with a 47-point, 19 board explosion against the Suns. Win-or-lose, KG probably puts up video game stats against those Suns.

-->Also, after a lot of dysfunction that season (which saw the coach fired mid-year), the Wolves clicked late. They won 10 of their last 14, and with the level KG was playing at they were one of those "nobody wants to play them in the playoffs" kind of teams. Would have been nice to see if they had another gear in the postseason.

-->This was the year after Garnett had almost unanimously won MVP in 2004, and in 2005 he finished 11th in the MVP vote with almost the same stats because his team didn't make the playoffs. If they sneak in with the 8 seed he still likely doesn't win, but he's in the conversation. And since he'd have been facing MVP-winner Nash in the 1st round, would have been a nice chance for a show-down.

--> After the Wolves missed those playoffs in 2005, they panicked into a series of comically bad decisions. That offseason they traded Sam Cassell AND A #1 PICK for Marko Jaric, a move that reaped devastation that they're still paying for.
*Partially because they now had a big starting PG in Jaric, they used their first lottery pick in a decade to pick undersized gunner Rashad McCants over, among others, Danny Granger.
*Cassell, who had been injured and disgruntled all season, went on the next year to have a huge year for the Clippers while the Wolves finished 2006 with Marcus Banks as their starting PG.

There are many (more) tangents I could go off on with this, but bottom line is if the Wolves win that regular season game, KG loses a big blemish on his resume (missing that postseason), has a real opportunity at his peak for a monster postseason, matches up well with a chance at an 8-1 postseason upset, maybe prevents the team from making some of the worst decisions in NBA history that offseason, and thus maybe keeps them from the 3-year plummet in the mid 2000s. (Of course, if you take it far enough you could think that maybe that keeps KG from ever getting traded to Boston, where he won a title that enhanced his legacy, and that's fair...but I think you can only go so-far into hypothetical world before there's no real way to guess what would have happened years down the line).

[sp6r=underrated]

I would still take the 94 Game 7 for Hakeem.

Olajuwon totally outclassed Ewing in that series and pwns him statistically throughout his career. I think most people would just say supporting cast.

I think it's pretty clearly game 5 Utah. A huge part of his legacy are him vs Shaq and especially him vs Robinson. They don't exist if Houston loses against Utah.

I don't think Hakeem's place in history would change that much if the Rockets win in 95 and lose in 94 with him crushing Ewing. I do think taking the series against Robinson and Shaq make him look different.

[sp6r=underrated]

Drza

Nice outside the box pick. Also, totally agree with the central point of parenthesis and I would encourage people to avoid writing posts like "change what happens in 96 and 97, 98, 99 never occur."

[DreamsRockets]

I would still take the 94 Game 7 for Hakeem.

Olajuwon totally outclassed Ewing in that series and pwns him statistically throughout his career. I think most people would just say supporting cast.

I think it's pretty clearly game 5 Utah. A huge part of his legacy are him vs Shaq and especially him vs Robinson. They don't exist if Houston loses against Utah.

I don't think Hakeem's place in history would change that much if the Rockets win in 95 and lose in 94 with him crushing Ewing. I do think taking the series against Robinson and Shaq make him look different.

his legacy would definitely take a hit if he lost in 94. with the emphasis on amount of championships won, i cant see how he'd still be held in such a high regard. and i'm sure a few people would claim ewing outplayed hakeem with his intangibles, heart, drive etc that didnt show up the statsheet.

btw, you can also select game 5 and game 7 against the suns in 95. if wesley person hits the 3 at the buzzer in game 5, the series is over or if elie doesnt nail the kiss of death, there is no demolition of the spurs and magic. you could also use the 94 series against the suns where the rockets were getting labeled choke city. they went to phoenix down 2-0, if they lose game 3, i'd say hakeem's leadership, drive and ability to win is definitely questioned even if he played well and did his part.

[colts18]

If Havlicek doesn't steal the ball, Wilt is considered the consensus GOAT.

[SmallBallPlsDie]

Game 7 Lakers vs Suns? what if Kobe wins that game and Lakers go on to beat 2 weaker teams than Suns? He could definitely beat Mavs.

[Gongxi]

I don't know if it counts, because Malone got the ball stolen himself, but if the Jazz win Game 6 of the 98 Finals, they had Game 7 in SLC. Definitely could've won that game and then viola, Karl Malone is a better basketball player. Stockton, too.

Pippen and the game 5 of the 94 ECSF (Hue Hollins Game) could've made things very interesting, too. The Bulls could've beaten Indiana, and then whether or not they win the 94 Finals, Pippen is seen as a better player regardless.

If Vlade secures the rebound instead of tiping it back to Horry in 2002, that's two superstar-less teams winning championships in three years (with Detroit two years later). What is now seen as an aberration might have been seen differently at the time, and Webber, Peja, Bibby, etc are all considered much better basketball players. Because Vlade gets a rebound.

[JordansBulls]

If Havlicek doesn't steal the ball, Wilt is considered the consensus GOAT.

How so? They would still needed to win the title that year as they would have played LA in the finals that year. Not to mention it was the year Wilt was traded to another team.

[mademan]

Game 6 Lakers vs suns. Kwame Brown rebounds the ball and Lakers go on to win. Face the Clippers at home every game and SA, who they matched up with well. Then Finals vs Cleavland. It's conceivable that the Lakers make it to the WCF where they have a shot to go all the way.