Name one game that would radically alter the perception of

[G35]

I would still take the 94 Game 7 for Hakeem.

Olajuwon totally outclassed Ewing in that series and pwns him statistically throughout his career. I think most people would just say supporting cast.

I think it's pretty clearly game 5 Utah. A huge part of his legacy are him vs Shaq and especially him vs Robinson. They don't exist if Houston loses against Utah.

I don't think Hakeem's place in history would change that much if the Rockets win in 95 and lose in 94 with him crushing Ewing. I do think taking the series against Robinson and Shaq make him look different.

his legacy would definitely take a hit if he lost in 94. with the emphasis on amount of championships won, i cant see how he'd still be held in such a high regard. and i'm sure a few people would claim ewing outplayed hakeem with his intangibles, heart, drive etc that didnt show up the statsheet.

btw, you can also select game 5 and game 7 against the suns in 95. if wesley person hits the 3 at the buzzer in game 5, the series is over or if elie doesnt nail the kiss of death, there is no demolition of the spurs and magic. you could also use the 94 series against the suns where the rockets were getting labeled choke city. they went to phoenix down 2-0, if they lose game 3, i'd say hakeem's leadership, drive and ability to win is definitely questioned even if he played well and did his part.

That 95 Rockets team was a team of destiny. They were down 2-1 vs the Jazz when the 1st round was a 5 game series. They were down 3-1 to the Suns and won 3 straight games. That Elie shot still haunts me. There were too many games in that playoff's that could have changed Hakeems legacy. Those games changed Barkleys and DRobs legacies also.

I think the .4 shot by Fisher was actually more of a detriment to the Lakers and could have propelled Duncan into the top 5 all time. Shaq and Kobe had already been arguing and the Buss/Shaq thing had been ongoing; but I believe that the Pistons debacle exacerbated the situation. The Lakers were favored and got creamed. Every game just drove the stake between Kobe and Shaq that much further.

If the Lakers would have went out in the semi's you don't hear about how bad a finals Kobe had. I think the Shaq/Kobe falling out doesn't escalate and they might have been able to work it out without all the media scrutiny after the finals loss.

I still don't know if the Spurs win that finals vs the Pistons but it would have been an amazing series just like the '05 series was......

[Father Time]

Game 6 Lakers vs suns. Kwame Brown rebounds the ball and Lakers go on to win. Face the Clippers at home every game and SA, who they matched up with well. Then Finals vs Cleavland. It's conceivable that the Lakers make it to the WCF where they have a shot to go all the way.

This

[Shaq Daddy]

2004 Tayshaun Prince blocks Reggie Miller's layup.

That doesnt happen, Pacers win the series.

Lakers wouldve beat the Pacers that year.

Kobe and Shaq would be happy after winning a title.

Lakers dont break up. Win a few more titles.

Kobe and Shaq both look a lot better

[colts18]

If Ben Wallace wasn't a punk, Reggie Miller is in the HOF today and Jermaine O'Neal gets serious consideration.

[Shaq Daddy]

I still don't know if the Spurs win that finals vs the Pistons but it would have been an amazing series just like the '05 series was......

Where do people get the perception that the 05 finals was a good series?

Most of the games were blowouts and only game 7 was really close.

Besides that it was boring as hell.

Lakers Celtics was a better 7 game finals and even that wasnt that good.

[Laimbeer]

I would still take the 94 Game 7 for Hakeem. Rockets lose the Jazz or Suns Game 7s in 95 and there's still a good chance one of Barkley, Malone, Shaq wins that title - which obviously hurts him, but not as directly as Ewing or Robinson getting one, IMO. I think especially the Knicks final it'd look like Ewing got the upper hand over him. Even if Hakeem matched him with a title the next year, the H2H and more exposure playing for the Knicks/getting them a title after 20 years, and having the lights of thsoe Jordan series - would possibly make Ewing the alpha dog of those 3 Cs

This. So much of Hakeem's gap over Ewing is predicated on 2-0 titles.

[SaveOurBullets]

You really have to wonder how much Duncan's legacy still has to gain with a title in 04 and 06. All of a sudden the lack of a repeat which I think he gets unfairly dogged for turns into a 3peat...plus two other titles. Wow. You have to look at him as the player of the era, or at least the player of the team that owned the era. Where do people rank him if that happens?

As for the games that could make that happen - Fisher's GW in 04 and Game 7 in 06. They're still not a lock if they win either of those, but I like their chances.

[G35]

I still don't know if the Spurs win that finals vs the Pistons but it would have been an amazing series just like the '05 series was......

Where do people get the perception that the 05 finals was a good series?

Most of the games were blowouts and only game 7 was really close.

Besides that it was boring as hell.

Lakers Celtics was a better 7 game finals and even that wasnt that good.

Yeah I remember the Spurs blew the Pistons out in the first two games and then the Pistons blew out the Spurs the next 2 games but those last 3 games were back and forth. I remember the media questioning Duncans heart and that he didn't show enough passion.

Looking at BR, game 5 went into OT. That was an intense defensive series. I liked it. It wasn't an offensive series like Suns/Spurs but very intense every possession...

[bl2k]

If Horry never hits that shot in Game 5 of the Finals, Duncan would take a whole lot of sht for missing those free throws

[FuShengTHEGreat]

A Game 7 playoff loss by the Lakers at home would've been the most colossal collapse in NBA history. They had a 3-1 series lead and should never have been down by 15 in the 4th quarter of a series decider.There would be no 3peat for sure, maybe the pysche in LA wouldn't have been great enough to win the title the following year. And people would surely question Shaq's leadership abilities.

On the flipside, Pippen would look a lot higheron all-time lists in many eyes if they'd gotten past LA as his inclusion would've been the difference that put the Blazers over the top. Maybe Sheed becomes less hotheaded and possibly has his name mentioned in HOF talks. Both franchises headed in opposite directions after that game.

Luckily for LA Kobe came of age in Game 7 and led them to victory in the deciding game at home.

[toodles23]

Hakeem: if Barkley makes more than 1 of his last 4 FTs at the end of 1995 game 5 (I think?) the Suns win the series 4-1.

Lebron: if Delonte West makes that open three in the last minute of game 1 vs. Orlando, the Cavs protect homecourt and end up getting to the Finals.

Nash: If not for the suspensions in '07, he has a very good chance of a title. No guarantee but if he wins a ring, his legacy is 10x better and he wouldn't be called a system player, or a guy who's defense sucks too much to win.

[ChuckTheD]

Lakers lose last year and Kobe would get trashed for eternity. Losing at home to the Celtics in Game 7 when you're the leader and you shoot 25%? Not just a black mark, it would absolutely taint his legacy. But luckily his guys pulled through, he got to the line, and now when any body brings it up it's met with a shrug and an acknowledgment of his 16 rebounds. Winning really does cure everything.

[ronnymac2]

This is a sad thread......not because it's a bad idea or because it hurts to know how many players "almost" became immortal. It's sad because it's true that we would probably all think about certain players differently based on what OTHER players did.

Great, great thread idea.

[Point forward]

If Frank Selvy hits that open shot in the last second of Game 7 of the 1962 NBA Finals, Elgin Baylor's legacy DRASTICALLY changes. Baylor would be lifted to Peyton Manning-status ("ony one ring, but the 38/17 soldier who led LA to the promised land while being in the US Army - whatta winner") instead of being the ultimate loser. Also, it spares the Lakers three decades (!!) of Celtics inferiority complex...

[Gongxi]

This is a sad thread......not because it's a bad idea or because it hurts to know how many players "almost" became immortal. It's sad because it's true that we would probably all think about certain players differently based on what OTHER players did.

Great, great thread idea.

It's not too late to make a stand against that type of irrational and arbitrary way of judging players. I mean, sabermetrics changed the way people looked at baseball players and that didn't take off until the game had been played for almost a century.

[BlackMambaShow]

How about calling a foul on Jordan's push off on Russell in game 6 of finals. Jordon gets the offensive foul and lose that game and are without the great Scottie Pippen for game 7

[joelafan]

Kobe's is DEFINITELY last year's Game 7. The Lakers losing that puts a MAJOR hurt on his legacy. All-time Game 7 chokebomb and everyone talks about the Lakers fluking into a title by KG's injury.

Kobe did other things. Like rebound. And made ray allen foul him at the 3 point line that set up the epic comback win. It was a defensive series,. Pay attenition to the game next time?

[joelafan]

For MJ i will say game 6 the epic push off that could of been a offensive foul. Pippen was unlikely to play a game 7. And the jazz chances winning game 7 go drastically increases.

[ThaRegul8r]

This is a sad thread......not because it's a bad idea or because it hurts to know how many players "almost" became immortal. It's sad because it's true that we would probably all think about certain players differently based on what OTHER players did.

Great, great thread idea.

I couldn't care less what other players do. I want to know WHAT THE PLAYER IN QUESTION did in order to bring the team wins. I want to know HIS contribution. That's why in scenarios in which a player who didn't win a ring wins one and we're asked how we would now rank them, I ALWAYS ask, "What did they do in this hypothetical that resulted in their team winning that they didn't do in actuality?" I've always said I hate "handwave" scenarios in which players are magically handwaved rings with no other information provided as to how they got these rings. If they didn't actually do anything different than what they already did, I fail to see why that should affect how I perceive that player. Only people who fail to take a deeper look at things would be swayed in such a way.

Like last year. Lakers win Game 7 and everyone talks about Kobe being GOAT Laker when I fail to see why what his teammates did should affect HIS ranking when he went 6-24 in an NBA Finals Game 7--after every Laker/Kobe fan I came across that day before the game (and there were a lot of them) went on about how Kobe was going to have an "MJ moment" in Game 7 of the Finals. Didn't happen. Yet that's included as evidence that Kobe is GOAT.

[joelafan]

For KG if he would just kept on going to the rack he could of won game 7 . Thank goodness he started to settle for jumps and passing the ball.