Official Trade Thread XV: 12/22/10 - 5/3/11

[montestewart]

^ How do Booker's numbers compare with Big Baby? If he can be a similar player, he'd be a very valuable bench player and spot starter.

Their rookie years compare favorably. If Booker can increase his range, his hustle and grit offset his lack of bulk, and I agree with above: he plays bigger than his apparent size. I'd like to see him stick around and continue to improve.

[Kanyewest]

^^ I wouldn't do it. The Wizards should probably just pick who they want at #1. BTW, I wonder if the Wizards should pick the best player available.

But the million dollar question is who is the best player available? Right now that very well might be Kyrie Irving. Would you be willing to draft Jared Sullinger at #1? What about Derrick Williams? I know I wouldn't. Heck, as much as I like Perry Jones' physical ability, I'd be scared to death to draft him at #1. This is just a horrible year to have the #1 pick. If we do get it, I wouldn't have a problem leveraging it to improve our situation.

Personally I'd prefer trading it for a young veteran than just using it to dump Rashard Lewis but it's not a terrible idea. I'd feel better about drafting some of these prospects if they weren't going to be a top 3 pick.

Good question. I haven't watched enough of college basketball this year (I haven't had a good enough look at Williams or Perry Jones). Although I do wonder how a Wall/Irving backcourt would workout. Would both be comfortable sharing the pg duties and playing off the ball? Or would the Wizards simply draft Irving to trade him. Man that would be an exciting backcourt to watch; although there's no relevant precedence for a backcourt like that working.

[Ruzious]

Booker hustles his ass off and has a great attitude, but he clearly doesn't have any SF skills, and he's 6'7 235 - too small for PF. Millsap has the bulk and strength of a PF - and was a ridiculously good rebounder.

Booker has no neck so his height understates his actual size. Going by standing reach, Booker is comparable to McRoberts, Turiaf, Millsap, Noah and David Lee. (I find Noah's measurements hard to believe though.)

While those guys aren't exactly oversized for the PF position, I don't really think of them as undersized either. I'm not saying Booker will pan out to be a true starting-caliber PF, but he could.

By the way, Booker has gotten his PER up to 14.0. That's pretty darn good for a rookie. He averages 11.4 points and 8.2 boards per 36 on the season.

Since January 1st, Booker has averaged 11.6 points, 9.2 boards and 1.6 blocks per 36 with a FG% of 60%

Uh... no. If you really want to go there, then you need to measure the top of head to the bottom of his neck and subtract from his size since he's got a long face. He is what he is - and I can see by actually looking at him - with my very own eyes that he's shorter than pretty much every PF, and the ones that he isn't shorter than - are bulkier. I wish I was wrong, but my eyes are in working order.

[tontoz]

Booker hustles his ass off and has a great attitude, but he clearly doesn't have any SF skills, and he's 6'7 235 - too small for PF. Millsap has the bulk and strength of a PF - and was a ridiculously good rebounder.

Booker has no neck so his height understates his actual size. Going by standing reach, Booker is comparable to McRoberts, Turiaf, Millsap, Noah and David Lee. (I find Noah's measurements hard to believe though.)

While those guys aren't exactly oversized for the PF position, I don't really think of them as undersized either. I'm not saying Booker will pan out to be a true starting-caliber PF, but he could.

By the way, Booker has gotten his PER up to 14.0. That's pretty darn good for a rookie. He averages 11.4 points and 8.2 boards per 36 on the season.

Since January 1st, Booker has averaged 11.6 points, 9.2 boards and 1.6 blocks per 36 with a FG% of 60%

Uh... no. If you really want to go there, then you need to measure the top of head to the bottom of his neck and subtract from his size since he's got a long face. He is what he is - and I can see by actually looking at him - with my very own eyes that he's shorter than pretty much every PF, and the ones that he isn't shorter than - are bulkier. I wish I was wrong, but my eyes are in working order.

Booker is the exact same height as Milsap as measured at the combine. Booker also benched 185 pounds 22 times compared to 15 for Milsap. Booker has a slightly higher standing reach and has a vertical 3.5" higher than Milsap.

[AceDegenerate]

Wait what? Booker has no neck?

[Kanyewest]

Booker is the exact same height as Milsap as measured at the combine. Booker also benched 185 pounds 22 times compared to 15 for Milsap. Booker has a slightly higher standing reach and has a vertical 3.5" higher than Milsap.

So Booker has a bigger wingspan than Milsap?

[theboomking]

Booker is the exact same height as Milsap as measured at the combine. Booker also benched 185 pounds 22 times compared to 15 for Milsap. Booker has a slightly higher standing reach and has a vertical 3.5" higher than Milsap.

So Booker has a bigger wingspan than Milsap?

Booker 6'9.5" wingspan 8'10" standing reach 11'10" max vert reach
Millsap 7'1.5" wingspan 8'9.5" standing reach 11'6" max vert
http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-dra ... os=4&sort=

Same standing reach. Millsap has a longer wingspan, and Booker is a better leaper.


Anyone think there is a chance the Warriors give up Stephon Curry for a package that includes the rights to Kyrie Irving?

[verbal8]

Booker is the exact same height as Milsap as measured at the combine. Booker also benched 185 pounds 22 times compared to 15 for Milsap. Booker has a slightly higher standing reach and has a vertical 3.5" higher than Milsap.

So Booker has a bigger wingspan than Milsap?

Booker 6'9.5" wingspan 8'10" standing reach 11'10" max vert reach
Millsap 7'1.5" wingspan 8'9.5" standing reach 11'6" max vert
http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-dra ... os=4&sort=

Same standing reach. Millsap has a longer wingspan, and Booker is a better leaper.


Anyone think there is a chance the Warriors give up Stephon Curry for a package that includes the rights to Kyrie Irving?

I don't think that Curry is the right guard to pair with Wall. If the Wizards could dump Lewis and flip Curry, maybe a trade would be a good idea.

[Dat2U]

I'd love Curry and I think he could be paired with Wall, but not in Flip's offense as currently constructed. Flip would turn Curry into a spot up shooter at SG and he's much more than that.

I also think in time Wall will be fine at defending SGs as he gets stronger. Considering the lack of quality SGs out there, I don't think we'd be in terrible shape by going with a moderately small back court. You can mask defensive deficiencies of a back court player much easier than you can a front court player.

[Ruzious]

Booker has no neck so his height understates his actual size. Going by standing reach, Booker is comparable to McRoberts, Turiaf, Millsap, Noah and David Lee. (I find Noah's measurements hard to believe though.)

While those guys aren't exactly oversized for the PF position, I don't really think of them as undersized either. I'm not saying Booker will pan out to be a true starting-caliber PF, but he could.

By the way, Booker has gotten his PER up to 14.0. That's pretty darn good for a rookie. He averages 11.4 points and 8.2 boards per 36 on the season.

Since January 1st, Booker has averaged 11.6 points, 9.2 boards and 1.6 blocks per 36 with a FG% of 60%

Uh... no. If you really want to go there, then you need to measure the top of head to the bottom of his neck and subtract from his size since he's got a long face. He is what he is - and I can see by actually looking at him - with my very own eyes that he's shorter than pretty much every PF, and the ones that he isn't shorter than - are bulkier. I wish I was wrong, but my eyes are in working order.

Booker is the exact same height as Milsap as measured at the combine. Booker also benched 185 pounds 22 times compared to 15 for Milsap. Booker has a slightly higher standing reach and has a vertical 3.5" higher than Milsap.

Why leave out the fact that Milsap has the thicker build and is therefore big enough to bang with all PF's? That's relevant, while the number of reps they did on a bench press has aboslutely no relevance. If it did, the shortest player in the NBA would be playing PF. Booker wasn't even in Millsap's league as a rebounder in college.

Good find, Ace. That no neck theory was... creative, shall we say. All people have to do is watch him. He's a small PF. He's an excellent straight ahead athlete, but there's no wiggle. See Joe Alexander. He gets by because he's an energy player who out-hustles players - see backup.

[theboomking]

I don't think that Curry is the right guard to pair with Wall. If the Wizards could dump Lewis and flip Curry, maybe a trade would be a good idea.

I was just thinking that the #1 or #2 pick this year just might be better as trade bait for a team that could actually use Irving. IMO, there isn't anyone else that is enough of a sure bet to justify that pick. Who else do you think might be available for that pick. I was actually thinking that if Utah is desperate to replace Derron Williams, we might be able to steal Millsap and the Nyets pick for Irving and Booker or another player. If we added Barnes in the draft, we'd be looking at:

C:Seraphin (I'm dis-owning McGee)
PF:Millsap
SF:Barnes
SG:NY
PG:Wall

That is a huge bump in talent.

I know this is still dreamland type stuff, but when I asked about Curry, I was also thinking about who would fit well around Dwight Howard, who could cover up a lot of the defensive issues Curry brings to the table. Curry is a deadeye outside shooter, would give Wall another good option, and would just be killer playing inside outside with Howard. Curry can play the 2 and the 3. Imagine running a small lineup with Wall at PG, NY at SF, Curry at SG and Howard at C. You wouldn't do it all the but that lineup could fill it up.

[nate33]

Ruzious, you have a real nasty way of disagreeing with people. It's impossible to even have a dialog with you without getting insulted, impuned or dismissed.

My "no neck theory" makes perfect sense. How else do you explain Booker's comparable standing reach with his peers despite a lesser height and smaller wingspan?

Code: Select all

Name            Year     Ht. NoS   Ht.       Wt.    Wngspn    Reach 
Al Horford      2007     6' 8.75   6' 9.75   246    7' 0.75   8' 11 
David Lee       2005     6' 7.75   6' 9      230    7' 0      8' 10.5
Josh McRobert   2007     6' 8.75   6' 10     240    7' 1      8' 10.5
Paul Millsap    2006     6' 6.25   6' 7.25   258    7' 1.5    8' 9.5
Ronny Turiaf    2005     6' 8      6' 9.25   238    7' 1.5    8' 10.5
Trevor Booker   2010     6' 6.25   6' 7.5    236    6' 9.75   8' 10 

[tontoz]

Why leave out the fact that Milsap has the thicker build and is therefore big enough to bang with all PF's? That's relevant, while the number of reps they did on a bench press has aboslutely no relevance. If it did, the shortest player in the NBA would be playing PF. Booker wasn't even in Millsap's league as a rebounder in college.

If the bench press had no relevance then why do they test players on the bench every year at the combine? You were the one who brought strength into the conversation in the first place.

Millsap has the bulk and strength of a PF

But when evidence strength is brought into the discussion all of a sudden it isn't relevant?

Booker hasn't shown any reluctance to bang with anyone. He certainly isn't getting pushed around out there. His problems are skill and experience, not size and bulk.

[keynote]

Why leave out the fact that Milsap has the thicker build and is therefore big enough to bang with all PF's? That's relevant, while the number of reps they did on a bench press has aboslutely no relevance. If it did, the shortest player in the NBA would be playing PF. Booker wasn't even in Millsap's league as a rebounder in college.

If the bench press had no relevance then why do they test players on the bench every year at the combine? You were the one who brought strength into the conversation in the first place.

Millsap has the bulk and strength of a PF

But when evidence strength is brought into the discussion all of a sudden it isn't relevant?

Booker hasn't shown any reluctance to bang with anyone. He certainly isn't getting pushed around out there. His problems are skill and experience, not size and bulk.

I think weight is definitely a factor. Having to guard, bang with and box out a heavier player is harder than having to do the same with a lighter player with the same strength.

Booker makes do out there, and I'm not suggesting that he put on extra weight (at the expense of speed and explosiveness), but there are times where his 238 lbs frame puts him at a disadvantage against a larger opponent. Milsap at 258 lbs rarely has that issue.

[tontoz]

I think weight is definitely a factor. Having to guard, bang with and box out a heavier player is harder than having to do the same with a lighter player with the same strength.

Booker makes do out there, and I'm not suggesting that he put on extra weight (at the expense of speed and explosiveness), but there are times where his 238 lbs frame puts him at a disadvantage against a larger opponent. Milsap at 258 lbs rarely has that issue.

So when has that been an issue? I must have missed it.

[keynote]

I think weight is definitely a factor. Having to guard, bang with and box out a heavier player is harder than having to do the same with a lighter player with the same strength.

Booker makes do out there, and I'm not suggesting that he put on extra weight (at the expense of speed and explosiveness), but there are times where his 238 lbs frame puts him at a disadvantage against a larger opponent. Milsap at 258 lbs rarely has that issue.

So when has that been an issue? I must have missed it.

I don't have game film at the ready, if that's what you're asking. But I've watched game sequences where I've seen him put at a disadvantage against a smaller player.

I'm surprised that my view is controversial. Many a big-boned post player has used his additional bulk to his advantage at every level of basketball. Obviously, players that are *too* heavy end up sacrificing conditioning, explosiveness, etc., but that doesn't negate the fact that bigger players are harder to box out. In any event, Booker at 238 lbs is light for a PF*. He might be able to overcome his weight disadvantage through hustle, strength, and guile, but he's still light.


* I think, but I'm not certain. Basketball Reference doesn't allow you to search by weight, and DX's measurement history is only for rookies, and as such doesn't account for the fact that most bigs add a little weight over the course of their career. Booker isn't only playing against other rookies, natch. For what it's worth, Wikipedia lists the typical weight for PFs to be between "240 and 260 lbs or more."

[tontoz]

Booker had no problem backing down Elton Brand when they played Philly. I am having a hard time thinking of an instance of anyone backing down Booker.

Milsaps extra bulk didn't do him any good against 235 pound Josh Smith. Smith clowned him and Smith isn't nearly as strong as Booker.

Booker's rebounds per minute are almost identical to Milsap. I guess Milsap isn't putting his bulk to good use.

[nate33]

I agree that Booker's lack of weight puts him at a disadvantage. However, I'll also note that Millsap had a bit more "baby fat" than Booker. I'm not sure if he has been able to put on any weight in the pros and he may have actually been forced to lose a bit to get quicker. Booker is 236 pounds of all muscle. He could probably put on a bit more without losing athleticism. I can see him getting to 240 or 245. Millsap will probably stay at 258 and may have even dropped down to 255 or so.

I'm not saying that Booker WILL be a starting-caliber PF. I'm just saying that it's not out of the realm of possibility. He's very strong, he's got sufficient standing reach, he can jump out of the gym, and he's faster end-to-end than John Wall. If he develops a jumper, he could be a better version of Udonis Haslem. Defensively, he has the same standing reach and athleticism as Josh Smith. (Smith has much better ball-handling and passing ability on offense though.)

My guess is that Booker pans out to be a reliable 20 MPG backup PF. To be a starter, he needs to improve his jumper not just to an "acceptable" level. It needs to be a "good". That kind of improvement in shooting ability is generally pretty rare.

[tontoz]

I agree that Booker's lack of weight puts him at a disadvantage. However, I'll also note that Millsap had a bit more "baby fat" than Booker. I'm not sure if he has been able to put on any weight in the pros and he may have actually been forced to lose a bit to get quicker. Booker is 236 pounds of all muscle. He could probably put on a bit more without losing athleticism. I can see him getting to 240 or 245. Millsap will probably stay at 258 and may have even dropped down to 255 or so.

I'm not saying that Booker WILL be a starting-caliber PF. I'm just saying that it's not out of the realm of possibility. He's very strong, he's got sufficient standing reach, he can jump out of the gym, and he's faster end-to-end than John Wall. If he develops a jumper, he could be a better version of Udonis Haslem. Defensively, he has the same standing reach and athleticism as Josh Smith. (Smith has much better ball-handling and passing ability on offense though.)

My guess is that Booker pans out to be a reliable 20 MPG backup PF. To be a starter, he needs to improve his jumper not just to an "acceptable" level. It needs to be a "good". That kind of improvement in shooting ability is generally pretty rare.

Funny that you mention Josh Smith here. Last year his EFG% on jumpers was 28%. His career best was 36%. Now it is well over 40%. I have never seen such a dramatic turnaround from someone who has been in the league several years.

[hands11]

Booker hustles his ass off and has a great attitude, but he clearly doesn't have any SF skills, and he's 6'7 235 - too small for PF. Millsap has the bulk and strength of a PF - and was a ridiculously good rebounder.

Booker has no neck so his height understates his actual size. Going by standing reach, Booker is comparable to McRoberts, Turiaf, Millsap, Noah and David Lee. (I find Noah's measurements hard to believe though.)

While those guys aren't exactly oversized for the PF position, I don't really think of them as undersized either. I'm not saying Booker will pan out to be a true starting-caliber PF, but he could.

By the way, Booker has gotten his PER up to 14.0. That's pretty darn good for a rookie. He averages 11.4 points and 8.2 boards per 36 on the season.

Since January 1st, Booker has averaged 11.6 points, 9.2 boards and 1.6 blocks per 36 with a FG% of 60%

Booker can clearly play PF. The guy has some wide shoulders so that adds to his effective height because he creates separation and that is what matters most when you shot. He is also athletic so he can get up.

His combination of width, leaps, strength and height makes him clearly able to play PF. And if he develops some handles he will be able to play some SF. The guy looks like a linebacker so he should be able to handle the PF.

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/LeBron-James-2967/

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Trevor-Booker-1305/

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Car ... hony-1520/

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Paul-Millsap-299/

Booker ..

Height No Shoes 6 6.25
No Step Vert 31 Better than all
Max Vert 36 Better than all
Max Bench 22 Better than all
Standing Reach 8-10" Measure up with all of these players
Lane agility 11.15 best of all
3/4 sprint 3.10 best of all

Now all the number for James were not filled in but still.
Now I'm not saying he is going to be as good as any of these players but he does have some nice raw materials so I willing to keep an open mind regarding his upside. He certainly looks like a gamer. He has the drive and attitude to get it done and that counts for a lot.

Thing about Ben Wallace in the early days. Who saw what he did coming and he played as a center?
Power, leaps and especially effort goes a long way in the NBA.