Big Bibby Buy-out

[Illuminaire]

Sorry Ace. I guess I just misread "It's not okay . . . . It's absolutely ridiculous"

You didn't missread anything. Ace is constantly negative - usually towards other people - and makes accusatory statements seemingly for giggles. He says he's not serious, but he repeats his (frequently insulting or confrontational) statements over and over again.... for what reason exactly?

Either he is dishonest about how much he wants to argue, or he takes pleasure in aggravating other people. You had him right the first time.

[507Mack]

Well, whether he's joking or not, I agree with Ace.

Dwight Howard most likely will not sign here as he wants to go to one of the larger markets and probably doesn't want to play the role of bringing a franchise into relevance, unless the new CBA provides some incentive to do so. On top of that, I think Howard is pretty overrated as a franchise cornerstone in that his offense is still suspect and he can't hit free throws. He'll need a Kobe/DWade (like Shaq did) if he wants to win anything.

As for Ernie, while he's done a good job of 'taking advantage' of contenders that are desperate to go all-in, the fact remains that those other teams are actually good. In other words, they're at a point where they need to make gambles in order to gain an edge, so no one is getting 'duped' by Ernie. Our overall talent pool has actually gone down, all in exchange for potential. You don't win Exec of the Year because of potential. I commend him because he is so far doing a good job of carrying out the Leonsis formula, but let's see what he does with these picks and the cap space before we start giving him awards.

[fugop]

jesus christ, people, use the ignore function

[hands11]

Where were you when EG traded our #5 pick for Foye/Miller then?

Right where I am right now. What sort of question is that? Are you suggesting I should have found some way to prevent the trade?

I was one of the very few who was extremely disappointed and all I heard was excuses, even to this day, about how Abe Pollin was pulling his strings from behind the scenes.

I hear and read considerably more than that. You seem to have nothing but contempt for the people using this forum. Perhaps you'd be happier somewhere else. Unless you enjoy spending your time insulting other people's intelligence.

Was that a question ?

For starters, just read the screen name.

I find it totally laughable because the truth is more like most people hated most of his moves. There were only a few who didn't jump on that train. It's only now that people are opening their eyes and seeing that he is a good GM who was in a bad situation. Proof is in the facts. Remove Abe from the picture and things started to change. Add Ted, and things continue to get better.

Owners and GMs work together but the owner is where the buck stops. And owner can trump a GMs ideas. A GM can lobby for something different but at the end of the day, it's what the owner wants.

[hands11]

Sorry Ace. I guess I just misread "It's not okay . . . . It's absolutely ridiculous"

You didn't missread anything. Ace is constantly negative - usually towards other people - and makes accusatory statements seemingly for giggles. He says he's not serious, but he repeats his (frequently insulting or confrontational) statements over and over again.... for what reason exactly?

Either he is dishonest about how much he wants to argue, or he takes pleasure in aggravating other people. You had him right the first time.

Or some people who are miserable want to pull down others.

Plus, it gets them attension.

[hands11]

Well, whether he's joking or not, I agree with Ace.

Dwight Howard most likely will not sign here as he wants to go to one of the larger markets and probably doesn't want to play the role of bringing a franchise into relevance, unless the new CBA provides some incentive to do so. On top of that, I think Howard is pretty overrated as a franchise cornerstone in that his offense is still suspect and he can't hit free throws. He'll need a Kobe/DWade (like Shaq did) if he wants to win anything.

As for Ernie, while he's done a good job of 'taking advantage' of contenders that are desperate to go all-in, the fact remains that those other teams are actually good. In other words, they're at a point where they need to make gambles in order to gain an edge, so no one is getting 'duped' by Ernie. Our overall talent pool has actually gone down, all in exchange for potential. You don't win Exec of the Year because of potential. I commend him because he is so far doing a good job of carrying out the Leonsis formula, but let's see what he does with these picks and the cap space before we start giving him awards.

I think you are undervaluing the actually stategy. Yeah, there are teams who are at the prime of their runs. That isn't us. First thing you do it start over. Hit the reset. Clear out the crap and clean up the salaries. You start aquiring assests. The target window for this team was not this year and the new CBA is coming up so you get under the cap and invest in future pieces..Booker, Seraphin, Wall. You give a NY a good look.

They should be sitting pretty to pluck up pieces when other teams have to clear cap which will allow them to get more pieces cheap.

Winning right now is low on the scale of things to look at to judge how well they are building.

[507Mack]

I think of Ace exactly like I think of Billy Zabka in his avatar: He can be a jerk, but when it's all said and done he is a good guy.

[The Consiglieri]

Go Ernie, but what does it say about this franchise that a player is willing to give up $6.2 million to get out of here?

Yeah, so about Dwight signing here again.. not happening until this franchise does some serious image rehabilitation.

Honestly, is this a surprise? I don't care about attitudes towards the team now, I care about attitudes towards the team in 2012 and 2013. This team has been horse manure for more than thirty years. Basically an 8 seeder, a blip with the big 3 in the mid-aughts, or a lottery joke. It's reputation has rightfully been Clippers-East forever. The rep is far worse than the Cav's rep ever was, at least the Cavs had the late eighties, early nineties and the Lebron years, the Boulez history is that of a joke for litterally three full decades running. It has no cache and never has had any with players today.

So this shouldn't be a surprise and again, I don't see why we should care, all we should care about is that Leonsis is setting up a proper blow up and rebuild and for all intents and purposes, that's what happening. Since the disastrous run of 2007-winter '09-'10 the team has finally started doing things right, freeing up future cap space by ridding itself of every awful contract by essentially 2012 i believe (or is it '13), and lets remember just a few short years ago we were shackled with three different totally hideous deals that were considered untradeable (Etan Thomas, Arenas, and Jamison's deal), now we've shed virtually all of that, and only have what, two more years left on one bad deal?

What has the team done in the meanwhile? As mentioned, gotten the best player from '10 draft to lead the team, gotten two guys that play very strong and tough inside in Booker, and Seraphin, something none of our other young bigs do, and trade cap space (which we've almost already gotten back in full) in exchange for 3 separate draft picks (one of them, Seraphin).

On a team where virtually nothing ever seems to be done right, the rebuild has been done as well as its possible to imagine it could have been done over the past year. That should be celebrated. I still would punt EG out of here because what he did preceeding the blow up was unforgiveable, but I do not mind him running things on draft day, he's consistently done an outstanding job drafting talent especially outside the sure fire lock blue chip zone. It's the trades and the signings that have been the area where in my view he's failed. I'm pretty confident he can do a good job with our top 6 pick, our top 25 pick, and our top 35 pick this june, but after that I'd show him the door (and I wouldn't blame anyone for showing him the door sooner, I just don't mind him in the GM chair when it comes to drafting).

[507Mack]

I think you are undervaluing the actually stategy. Yeah, there are teams who are at the prime of their runs. That isn't us. First thing you do it start over. Hit the reset. Clear out the crap and clean up the salaries. You start aquiring assests. The target window for this team was not this year and the new CBA is coming up so you get under the cap and invest in future pieces..Booker, Seraphin, Wall. You give a NY a good look.

They should be sitting pretty to pluck up pieces when other teams have to clear cap which will allow them to get more pieces cheap.

Winning right now is low on the scale of things to look at to judge how well they are building.

No, I totallu understand the strategy. It's the best thing we can do at this time. I was merely commenting on how people are ready to consider EG as Exec of the Year for something that any other GM would do if they were in the same situtation.

[507Mack]

What makes me nervous about all of these draft picks is that they are all in a draft that's considered to be realtively weak. But that's a different matter.

[AceDegenerate]

Seems the picture if becoming more and more clear regarding what w EG and what was EG doing Abes bidding.

Whaddya know? I thought no one was making this argument though Spence?

[AceDegenerate]

Sorry Ace. I guess I just misread "It's not okay . . . . It's absolutely ridiculous"

You didn't missread anything. Ace is constantly negative - usually towards other people - and makes accusatory statements seemingly for giggles. He says he's not serious, but he repeats his (frequently insulting or confrontational) statements over and over again.... for what reason exactly?

Either he is dishonest about how much he wants to argue, or he takes pleasure in aggravating other people. You had him right the first time.

Wow, you are a joke buddy. But thanks for letting me know how I feel!

[AceDegenerate]

jesus christ, people, use the ignore function

The funniest thing about all this is that someone did in fact agree with me, and conveniently everyone has decided to exit the discussion at this point.

[Spence]

Whaddya know? I thought no one was making this argument though Spence?

I'm not sure how to respond to someone who doesn't read my posts and simply substitutes arguments he prefers to attack.

Pity, this seemed like a promising thread at one point.

[montestewart]

jesus christ, people, use the ignore function

The funniest thing about all this is that someone did in fact agree with me, and conveniently everyone has decided to exit the discussion at this point.

The funniest thing about all this is that the person you were originally disagreeing with agreed with you.

[Hoopalotta]

Rather absurd how scandalously well the Hinrich side of the offseason ended up working out.

I would still say that a deal with Miami at last year's draft would have been the way to go with the other $6-7 million we had available ($3 million on the Yi/Ross flip, $3 million on Howard and I believe we might have signed Hilton before we were over the cap), but the Hinrich chunk was squeezed of every last morsel of value. Surely it's the best BOYD of the last year with my second favorite probably being the Sam Presti move with Miami and the Clippers.

Looks to me like you plug in the 5th and 21st picks, about $1 million phantom salary on our good Mr. Bibber and the put some minimum cap holds out to a 12 man roster and you have:

With Nick QO'ed, but unsigned: about $53 million, with him counting at a $7.9 million cap hold. That's the figure he'll count at until he's formally signed.

With Nick dropped: If we don't extend the QO to Nick, and that's obviously QUITE unlikely, we'd be at about $46 million including the extra cap hold.

With Nick resigned at $6 million in first year salary: just over $51 million, but a little less after we actually sign the rookies to their real contracts.

With Nick resigned at $5 million in first year salary: Shocker, just over $50 million; again, a little less once we actually sign the rookies to their contracts.

I would expect that if the cap were to come down a lot, there would also be some rollbacks to where the salaries were shrunk roughly in proportion to the cap-crimp, so we'd probably still have some space even if the cap came down at $52 million under the new paradigm.

However, I don't know how feasible it's going to be this year to do one of those trades during the draft where you absorb salary and complete the deal on the other side of the moratorium (like we did with Hiney last year) since the whole cap and CBA issue is so uncertain. If other teams agreed to that, drafted who we wanted and then it was discovered that the deal wasn't going to work, they'd be stuck with a player they didn't want (though they might just say "by Jove, this young man was handpicked by the great Milt Newman. We'll take him, we'll take him!). On the other hand, It's almost certain that we'll have at least a few extra million when the cap comes down, so if it's not a big swing it probably works.

We should definitely be looking to use that cap space in one triumphant wham-bam and just fill out the roster next year with minimum salary exemptions later in the signing period (I don't see how the league could get rid of those). We don't need to scrap together 2 extra wins by having a superior 8th man on a multi-year deal picked from amongst third tier free agents - we're way too far away for that kind of thinking. No Kleiza's, please. The best thing is to try and use the cap space on one big move.

[hands11]

So the Bib looking to land in Miami. That was worth letting go of the money for sure.

Right back in the fight before he is to old.

Smart move by him.

As for it having anything to do with the Wizards. That is BS. He would have left any team that wasn't in the playoff run right now.

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/21 ... _For_Bibby

Same deal with Z. I saw the Wizard where hitting the reset button. He didn't want to end his final days playing through that. Besides, the dude loves Cleveland.

[pancakes3]

the big Z trade was a wink-wink, nudge-nudge from the start. the bibby buyout was more of a surprise. i thought we should have kept him, considering our lack of pg depth (unless you want to put your eggs in the shakur basket).

[nate33]

Rather absurd how scandalously well the Hinrich side of the offseason ended up working out.

I would still say that a deal with Miami at last year's draft would have been the way to go with the other $6-7 million we had available ($3 million on the Yi/Ross flip, $3 million on Howard and I believe we might have signed Hilton before we were over the cap), but the Hinrich chunk was squeezed of every last morsel of value. Surely it's the best BOYD of the last year with my second favorite probably being the Sam Presti move with Miami and the Clippers.

Looks to me like you plug in the 5th and 21st picks, about $1 million phantom salary on our good Mr. Bibber and the put some minimum cap holds out to a 12 man roster and you have:

With Nick QO'ed, but unsigned: about $53 million, with him counting at a $7.9 million cap hold. That's the figure he'll count at until he's formally signed.

With Nick dropped: If we don't extend the QO to Nick, and that's obviously QUITE unlikely, we'd be at about $46 million including the extra cap hold.

With Nick resigned at $6 million in first year salary: just over $51 million, but a little less after we actually sign the rookies to their real contracts.

With Nick resigned at $5 million in first year salary: Shocker, just over $50 million; again, a little less once we actually sign the rookies to their contracts.

I would expect that if the cap were to come down a lot, there would also be some rollbacks to where the salaries were shrunk roughly in proportion to the cap-crimp, so we'd probably still have some space even if the cap came down at $52 million under the new paradigm.

However, I don't know how feasible it's going to be this year to do one of those trades during the draft where you absorb salary and complete the deal on the other side of the moratorium (like we did with Hiney last year) since the whole cap and CBA issue is so uncertain. If other teams agreed to that, drafted who we wanted and then it was discovered that the deal wasn't going to work, they'd be stuck with a player they didn't want (though they might just say "by Jove, this young man was handpicked by the great Milt Newman. We'll take him, we'll take him!). On the other hand, It's almost certain that we'll have at least a few extra million when the cap comes down, so if it's not a big swing it probably works.

We should definitely be looking to use that cap space in one triumphant wham-bam and just fill out the roster next year with minimum salary exemptions later in the signing period (I don't see how the league could get rid of those). We don't need to scrap together 2 extra wins by having a superior 8th man on a multi-year deal picked from amongst third tier free agents - we're way too far away for that kind of thinking. No Kleiza's, please. The best thing is to try and use the cap space on one big move.

One small correction. The draft pick cap holds will actually be a bit less than their actual contracts. We will have slightly more cap room prior to us inking their rookie deals. Once we sign them, our cap room will dwindle a bit, not increase.

You make a good point about the CBA uncertaintly scuttling any Hinrich-style draft-day trades. We won't be making any BOYD moves for draft picks in THIS draft. However, that's probably for the best. Ideally, we wait until after the CBA comes out and then make some BOYD deals to buy 2012 picks. This is good for two reasons. First, 2012 is likely to be a better draft. Second, having spare picks around in 2012 might be the best kind of incentive to pull a Carmelo-type deal at the Trade Deadline. Indeed, I'd actually be looking to trade that Atlanta pick for a 2012 pick as well.

[Hoopalotta]

With Nick resigned at $6 million in first year salary: just over $51 million, but a little less after we actually sign the rookies to their real contracts.

With Nick resigned at $5 million in first year salary: Shocker, just over $50 million; again, a little less once we actually sign the rookies to their contracts.

One small correction. The draft pick cap holds will actually be a bit less than their actual contracts. We will have slightly more cap room prior to us inking their rookie deals. Once we sign them, our cap room will dwindle a bit, not increase.

Yeah, I actually was intending to say that we'd have a little less space after the rookies were resigned, though it's phrased wrong and infers the opposite. I understand the dynamic.

You make a good point about the CBA uncertaintly scuttling any Hinrich-style draft-day trades. We won't be making any BOYD moves for draft picks in THIS draft. However, that's probably for the best. Ideally, we wait until after the CBA comes out and then make some BOYD deals to buy 2012 picks. This is good for two reasons. First, 2012 is likely to be a better draft. Second, having spare picks around in 2012 might be the best kind of incentive to pull a Carmelo-type deal at the Trade Deadline. Indeed, I'd actually be looking to trade that Atlanta pick for a 2012 pick as well.

That would work for me, though I'm not sure if we you need league approval to do one of those deferred draft day trades or not; if it's prospective and not necessary for the handshake portion of things, maybe someone would consider taking a chance and assuming that we'd be at least $2-3 million under the cap when the new deal comes through (In that case, maybe we could trade Blatche on draft day for someone making $9 million without it being a problem).

Could well be that nobody's willing to take that chance, but worth mentioning as a possibility. There also should be some 2012 picks available on draft night as well.