Post#55 » by shawngoat23 » Tue Mar 1, 2011 12:56 pm
I was actually thinking of making a thread just like this, so this is great. Here's what I have to add:
Bryant
- Improved by: the Detroit series is the biggest black mark on his resume, but most of the games were blowouts. But otherwise, Robert Horry hitting that trey in Game 5 of the 2003 semifinals puts the Lakers up 3-2 with a great chance at winning the series, where they likely beat the Mavericks and crush the Nets. Kobe has a 4-peat to his credit and 6 rings by now. Shaq may never have left, and the Laker dynasty is even stronger.
- Weakened by: Last season's Game 7 was a great mention. What came to mind for me first that the chokehold on Mike Bibby in Game 6 of the 2002 WCF goes against Kobe instead of Bibby and the Kings go on to win the NBA Finals. Lakers never have a threepeat, and Kobe is probably criticized for losing the game on an offensive foul.
Duncan
- Improved by: Derek Fisher misses that 0.4 second buzzer-beater. Not only do the Spurs have a decent shot at winning the series up 3-2, but they don't go on full-tilt in Game 6, and Duncan's shot before Fisher's amazing basket is one of the clutches game-winners of all time.
- Weakened by: Robert Horry missing the Game 5 shot against the Pistons. That was the only of his Finals series ever in doubt (Knicks, Nets, and Cavs were overmatched opponents to say the least), and Duncan claims only three rings.
Garnett
- Improved by: Growing a pair and getting more then 3 rebounds in the deciding Game 7. I think what would be even better for his resume is someone from the Timberwolves stepping up in Game 6 of the 2003 WCF (or Sam Cassell not getting hurt), but that's still contingent on them beating hte Lakers in Game 7 and beating a Pistons team that was running on all cylinders.
- Weakened by: He gets hurt a lot with one ring. If Paul Pierce doesn't match LeBron's performance in the 4th quarter of the 2008 ECF, Garnett still has no ring. Or if the Lakers don't absolutely choke Game 4 with that 24 point lead. Or which some people might have forgotten--the Celtics themselves almost choke a 24-point lead in Game 2! (The Lakers would still need to take a Game 7 though.)
Jordan
- Improved by: A teammate stepping up in the 1990 ECF. Game 7 (the "migraine game") was an absolute blowout, so I can't use that (Jordan had a great game, but the rest of the team combined to shoot like 23%), but if they take either Game 1 or 2 (both winnable losses), Jordan likely wins his first ring against the Blazers (who the Bulls would be favored over). Incidentally, he'd be rocking 33.6/6.9/6.3/2.8/0.7 on 52.6%/84.8% for the regular season and even higher in the playoffs before facing the uptempo Blazers in the Finals.
- Weakened by: Some possibilities. Charles Smith gets a questionable call in his favor in the waning seconds of Game 5 of the 1993 ECF, but this is contingent on the Knicks taking Game 7 as well; the Bulls dynasty looks much more vulnerable in that case if the Knicks beat them. Pacers hold on in the 4th quarter win Game 7 in 1998 ECF, and Jordan never gets to add "The Shot" to his resume or to end his Bulls career on top. Or Hue Hollins never blows the whistle against Pippen on Hubert Davis in Game 5 of the 1994 semis; Bulls advance to the ECF, probably slight favorites against the Pacers and underdogs against the Rockets, but even though Jordan doesn't play this season, his detractors might question his importance to the Bulls.
K. Malone
- Improved by: Does not coughing up the rock in Game 6 of the 1998 Finals count? He wouldn't earn the "choker" label (whether deserved or not) and he'd have a ring to his credit as the main guy. But if Jordan doesn't make the shot or if Stockton drains the final trey--or even if Eisley's waved-off basket had counted and the rest of the game stayed the same--the Jazz are in good position to win Game 7 at home with the Bulls hampered by injuries. Combined with his longevity and all his gaudy records, he has a very strong case as greatest PF ever. I think he more than anyone else benefits most from "improvement".
- Weakened by: He probably "loses" less than anyone else with a "bad bounce" too--after all, how much can you swing a career of someone who played like a stud for 20 years but never won a ring? But the closest bet is probably the previously mentioned "bearhug" in the 1997 WCF being called an offensive foul.
Nash
- Improved by: Not sure. Maybe if the Suns win Game 5 in 2007 (say, Stoudemire and Diaw don't get suspended for standing up), they might win the series and they are probably heavily favored against the Jazz and the Cavs and win a ring. That would be a big boost to his career, but it's contingent on winning a Game 7 agains the Spurs (and two more series, although that's not as big an assumption IMO). Or if Ron Artest doesn't put back Kobe's airball in last year's Game 5 of the WCF, they have two chances to clinch the WCF against a heavily-favored Lakers team. I still think they get blown out by the Celtics, but even getting to the Finals would be a tremendous accomplishment (I never gave that Suns team a shot).
- Weakened by: Not sure about this either. It's hard to "take away" something truly huge from someone that hasn't won a ring yet. But if they lose that close Game 5 in the 1st round of 2006 to the Lakers--a heavy underdog--it would reflect really poorly on the Suns and people would likely call into question his MVP.
Nowitzki
- Improved by: Any of the games in the 2006 Finals, provided they also take a 4th. Probably Game 3, because the Heat probably pack it in mentally after going down 0-3. He still got outperformed by Wade, but three of their losses were by 2, 1, and 3 points, and a few questionable calls could have definitely been the difference.
- Weakened by: Manu Ginobili doesn't foul him in the semis of the same year, and he never gets to the Finals with the best supporting cast in the league.
Olajuwon
- Improved by: I never thought they were truly in the 1986 Finals, despite it going 6 games, so I'll rule that series out. If Karl Malone gets whistled for the bearhug in the 1997 WCF, the Rockets meet the Bulls provided they can pull out Game 7 on the road (not an easy task). They're still big underdogs to the Bulls, but Hakeem takes his big 3 (himself, Barkley, and Drexler) against Jordan's, and we get the showdown that 90's fans have always dreamed of. If the Rockets pull off the upset, Jordan is still considered the best player of the generation, but the gap becomes smaller and Hakeem's reputation grows even better.
- Weakened by: Losing any of the "Clutch City" games in the 1994 run. The Rockets are "Choke City" and never earn their nickname. Rockets probably continue to flounder in 1995 and never make the trade for Drexler. He never gets a chance to own Robinson, Ewing, and O'Neal. Despite being a better player than any of them (besides possibly O'Neal), he falls behind Robinson in the GOAT ratings (and probably Ewing as well). He loses more than anyone with the "negative scenario", despite the fact that he'd still be a total stud.
O'Neal
- Improved by: It's hard to claim that one game made a difference in a 4-0 sweep, but if Nick Anderson never misses those free throws or if Olajuwon doesn't get the putback, the more talented but very inexperienced Magic team has a 1-0 lead in the 1995 Finals against a more veteran Rockets squad that wanted it more. It probably doesn't make a difference, but how much of a boost would Shaq get for winning a title in his third year?! (Also, the Robert Horry trey that helped Kobe too.)
- Weakened by: Definitely Game 6 of the 2002 WCF (see Kobe).
Some others:
Scottie Pippen
- Improved by: Hubert Davis no-call gives Bulls a trip to the 1994 ECF (see Jordan). Also, someone on the Blazers not choking Game 7 of the 1999 WCF (but it's hard to blame "someone" when Pippen was part of the choke job).
- Weakened by: Any number of heroics where Jordan (or even Paxson, Kerr, or Kukoc) hits a game-winning shot.
Wilt Chamberlain
- Improved by: Butch Van Breda Kolff lets him off the bench in Game 7 of the 1969 Finals. Or Don Nelson doesn't make that shot. Or Jerry West actually gets the steal after knocking the pass loose. Any number of things in this game. There were other heartbreaks in his career (he lost so many matches after going the maximum 5 or 7 games, and many of them by 1 or 2 points), but I thought this was the low point in his career because he had to bow out with injury, he had West and Baylor (and West was absolutely amazing), and the Celtics were on their last legs.
- Weakened by: I'm not sure. His 1967 and 1972 teams--the only championship squads of his career--won in such dominating fashion that it's hard to make up a situation where they lose (with one exception--see KAJ below). And in almost every other year, he loses in heartbreaking fashion. Strangely enough, he probably gets more credit for a regular season game (100 point game) than for any postseason performance. So maybe if the other team decided to just stall out the clock in a meaningless regular season game and Wilt finishes with "only" 85-90 points.
Bill Russell
- Improved by: Not getting injured in the 1958 Finals. Even then, the Hawks won by just 2 in Game 1, 3 in Game 3, 2 in Game 5, and 1 in Game 6 (with Bob Pettit going berserk for 50). Celtics still need to win another game, but even if Russell never steps on the floor, how much would his status as a winner elevate him to mythical status with 12 rings, including 10 in a row?!.
- Weakened by: John Havlicek not getting the steal in the 1965 ECF, and the Sixers beating the Celtics. Russell "only" has 10 rings, but you could start to make legitimate criticisms: 1) Russell turned the ball over by throwing an inbounds against a support wire before Havlicek's steal, so he gets the criticism for "choking"; 2) this is the first time Wilt has a team nearly as talented as Russell, so you can make a stronger case that Wilt was better than Russell. There were also a number of close calls he won in his other 10 championships, but losing one of them for turning it on an inbounds pass late in the game would be pretty tragic.
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
- Improved by: Winning two of either Game 2 (134-135), Game 3 (105-108), or Game 6 (100-104) against the Lakers in the 1972 WCF (or the 7th game, which was never played). They likely go on to beat the Knicks in the Finals as heavy favorites. Kareem would have 7 rings, assuming the rest of his career would have played out the same, and Wilt only has one. Currently, you can make a case for either of them as GOAT, with Wilt having the superior stats and Kareem having more championships. But if the Bucks win any of those 3 games, plus win Game 7, Wilt never beats Kareem in his career, and young Kareem posts better stats than old Wilt in all their matchups. I don't think you'd possibly be able to make a case for Wilt as GOAT, and conversely, Kareem benefits (and I'd put him over Jordan as well).
- Weakened by: Magic doesn't bail Kareem out for his miss from the charity stripe with the "junior skyhook". Lakers go on to lose Game 7. Kareem would have only 5 titles and one huge chokejob on his resume. (Also eligible, Magic doesn't go off in Game 6 with Kareem sidelined--although it was a Lakers blowout, forcing a Game 7, and despite being the best player in the game Kareem doesn't get a ring in 1980.)
Magic Johnson
- Improved by: Any number of games in the 1984 Finals, which went to 7 games with OT wins by the Celtics in Games 2 and 4. Assume one of his teammates gets an extra bucket in regulation in either of those games. This gives Magic 6 rings, Bird never beats him, and despite the fact that he would have "choked" anyway (in a winning effort), Magic doesn't become known as "Tragic Johnson". Hard to put Bird as equal to Magic on the all-time list in this case (or even on the same tier), and Magic versus Jordan becomes a coin flip (rather than in Jordan's favor).
- Weakened by: So many possibilties.
1) Lose Game 4 of the 1987 Finals (which the Lakers won 107-106). Celtics get a chance to beat Lakers at the Forum in Game 7, and if they do, Bird and Magic both have 4 rings, with Bird having a 2-1 edge (and having played in the much tougher Eastern Conference, plus having had the better prime). There's no way you can put Magic above Bird in that case.
2) Isiah Thomas doesn't get injured in Game 6--or still does but gets an extra bucket out of it, but manages to win anyway (Lakers won 103-102). Or win Game 7 (Lakers won 108-105). As ridiculous as it sounds, would you be able to mention Isiah in the same breath as Magic? In this case, Magic has 4 rings to Isiah's 3 (and was a better player anyway), but Isiah plays in a much tougher conference, never loses to Magic (2-0), and can claim the greatest "gut it out" performance of all time in a winning effort. He also can claim winning records against Bird and Jordan as well as Magic (otherwise the three best players of the generation).
Isiah Thomas
- Improved by: see above. Someone gets the extra basket, but Isiah going off for 25 points in one quarter on a terrible ankle in a championship-clinching effort is the GOAT performance of all time in my book. That would be like Jordan's flu game (even better performance, better opponent, worse debilitating status, championship clincher) or Willis Reed's Game 7 (approximately ten billion times the production) on steroids.
Or if DJ blows the (very difficult) layup, Thomas' choke job on Bird's steal doesn't look as bad, and the Pistons make the Finals in 1987 (and probably lose to the Lakers). Or Bernard King doesn't match him going off in the 1984 Finals.
- Weakened by: Not sure. The Pistons came so close to making the Finals in 1987 (but probably wouldn't have won against the stacked Lakers) and winning it all in 1988 before blowing out their opponents in 1989 and 1990. Probably the case for "improving Jordan" would be the best for "hampering Isiah" (see above).
Larry Bird
- Improved by: See Magic's case 1 (note that Bird hit a trey to put the Celtics up 2 before Kareem split his FTs and Magic hit the babyhook). Or win Game 2 (7 point loss) against the Lakers in 1985, and the Celtics are up 2-0. They still have to take a 4th game, but the Lakers likely never recover from an 0-2 deficit, especially after reeling from the Memorial Day Massacre.
- Weakened by: Lose Games 5, 6, or 7 (wins of 2, 2, and 1) against Philly in 1981 ECF, and Bird never gets his first ring. Erving likely gets his first (without Moses), and there's no way you can put Bird above Erving.
Julius Erving
- Improved by: so many close calls in his NBA career. See Bird's "negative case". Erving probably beats Moses Malone's 40-42 Rockets team in the Finals and wins his first NBA championship to go along with 2 ABA ones. He has a ring as the best player in the NBA (and probably gets credit as being the best player on his team in 1983, even though Moses is better).
Also noteworthy--win Game 5 (6 point loss) or 6 (2 point loss) against "Blazermania", and the Sixers play for all the marbles on their homecourt in Game 7. Steal Game 1 (7 point loss), 5 (5 point loss, with Kareem going down), or 6 (16 point blowout, only because Magic had the GOAT playoff performance), and the Sixers have an excellent shot at winning it all in Game 7 (with Kareem still unlikely to play). Those Sixers teams were talented but flawed, and since only Kareem and Walton (for one season) were on Erving's level, a championship ring against them would go along way to solidifying his case.
- Weakened by: Lose for another straight year in Game 7 of the ECF against the Celtics in 1982. It doesn't change his ring total, but it weakens his resume.
Jerry West
- Improved by: Jerry West probably lost close matches in the Finals 1962 (4-3), 1963 (4-2), 1966 (4-3), 1968 (4-2), 1969 (4-3), and 1970 (4-3), plus was involved in a few other Finals that were not competitive (1965). But in those 6 that were listed, so many were decided by just one or two points, with bad bounces (Selvy, Don Nelson, missed steal) or weird crap happening (Wilt injury, Van Breda Kolff) preventing him from getting a ring until 1972 (where he had his worst performance). This was despite the fact that he played like a stud his entire postseason career, usually without a center. Do you think any of these might have affected how we perceive his career? ****, if the three-point line was invented in time for his 60-foot buzzer beater in Game 3 of the 1970 Finals, he'd already have a ring by then even with all the bad luck and the greatest game-winning shot of all time too!
- Weakened by: Nothing bounced right for Jerry West until 1972, where the Lakers were so dominant anyway. I can't think of anything that would significantly detract from his career.
Elgin Baylor
- Improved by: See Jerry West, except not as good or as clutch late in his career. But imagine if Selvy makes that shot in 1962 (which someone already mentioned). Elgin Baylor is still the best player at this point, and he would have led the Lakers to their first title in L.A. with a whopping 61 point Game 5 (still an NBA record). Or if he just doesn't get injured in 1972 and plays a minimal role, he still has a championship.
- Worsened by: See Jerry West, except he didn't even have the good fortune to get injured after 1972.
penbeast0 wrote:Yes, he did. And as a mod, I can't even put him on ignore . . . sigh.
I think about that game all the time. Kobe couldve potientially won the Finals with Kwame, Smush, Walton and Odom as his starters. GOAT status.
