Name one game that would radically alter the perception of

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Re: Name one game that would radically alter the perception of 

Post#61 » by ronnymac2 » Wed Mar 2, 2011 7:18 am

Gongxi wrote:
ronnymac2 wrote:This is a sad thread......not because it's a bad idea or because it hurts to know how many players "almost" became immortal. It's sad because it's true that we would probably all think about certain players differently based on what OTHER players did.

Great, great thread idea.


It's not too late to make a stand against that type of irrational and arbitrary way of judging players. I mean, sabermetrics changed the way people looked at baseball players and that didn't take off until the game had been played for almost a century.


I know. It's much more difficult though. The shift from using regular stats to using advanced stats in baseball is easier imo because the shift isn't a shift in the way of thinking as much as it is in the tools being used to evaluate. With basketball, people would need to fundamentally think differently.

I'm a person who really does evaluate players based on what they did on the court. Championships are tie-breakers or simple indicators for me. And yet, even I'm not confident that I'd be consistent with my perception of certain players if their resumes were affected by the play of their teammates.

I definitely agree with you though. I try to propagate the "look at the player, not his teammates" logic myself.
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Re: Name one game that would radically alter the perception of 

Post#62 » by ronnymac2 » Wed Mar 2, 2011 7:20 am

ThaRegul8r wrote:
ronnymac2 wrote:This is a sad thread......not because it's a bad idea or because it hurts to know how many players "almost" became immortal. It's sad because it's true that we would probably all think about certain players differently based on what OTHER players did.

Great, great thread idea.


I couldn't care less what other players do. I want to know WHAT THE PLAYER IN QUESTION did in order to bring the team wins. I want to know HIS contribution. That's why in scenarios in which a player who didn't win a ring wins one and we're asked how we would now rank them, I ALWAYS ask, "What did they do in this hypothetical that resulted in their team winning that they didn't do in actuality?" I've always said I hate "handwave" scenarios in which players are magically handwaved rings with no other information provided as to how they got these rings. If they didn't actually do anything different than what they already did, I fail to see why that should affect how I perceive that player. Only people who fail to take a deeper look at things would be swayed in such a way.


Yup.
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Re: Name one game that would radically alter the perception of 

Post#63 » by therealbig3 » Wed Mar 2, 2011 7:28 am

In a way though, everything a player does is because of his teammates. You really can't look exclusively at just what a player does imo. Look at KG, for example. In 08, his scoring and rebounding dropped off big time. But was he really that much worse than his 07 version? No, but he had a much better team around him, so his statistics dipped. The best player on a bad team will post better stats than he normally would, because he has the ball in his hands more. A guy like KG will see his stats suffer when he joins a better team. Efficiency usually increases when a player is on a better team. So even the statistics that people assume to be just what the player produces is a product of who that player has around him. Even the advanced stats are susceptible to this.

Sports like basketball and football are so team-oriented, that you really can't separate a player's performance from the team itself, at least not completely, imo. With baseball, you can easily do that, because when someone goes up to bat, it's just the hitter vs the pitcher. Nobody else. Basketball, it's all about the team.
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Re: Name one game that would radically alter the perception of 

Post#64 » by ronnymac2 » Wed Mar 2, 2011 7:33 am

Well, that's why stats are merely indicators. Use them in the right context, and they can be extremely helpful. Rely on them, and you won't understand what the player is doing on the court.

I do agree with your overall premise though. Your teammates do affect how you play.
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Re: Name one game that would radically alter the perception of 

Post#65 » by Shot Clock » Wed Mar 2, 2011 2:20 pm

Ball Boy wrote:1. Really? Its BOXING OUT! Its a fundamental part of basketball and is one of the first things your taught. Anyone can box out. Kobe missing the game winner (when he had already hit plenty clutch shots in that series) isnt really a big deal. Not boxing out is a HUGE mistake. Missing a game winning jumper isnt a mistake, it happens to everyone.
.


And why was Thomas wide open? The LA defense broke down? Who during that play stood in the same spot not rotating to cover anyone? Hmmm
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Re: Name one game that would radically alter the perception of 

Post#66 » by INKtastic » Wed Mar 2, 2011 3:07 pm

LeBron wasn't on the list, but
a change that improves his perception: 2009, game 4 vs Magic. Cavs up 1 with 6 seconds left, the ball goes out of bounds off of Olrando, but the refs give Orlando the ball back. The play is now reviewable because of that. Then Howard sets an uncalled moving screen - he blocks one defender, then completely move to an entirely different spot to block another defender as a single screen to free Rashard Lewis, who makes a 3. Rashard tests positve for being on steroids at the time and is later suspended for it, his career never recovers.

Change any of that and the cavs bounce back from being first down 0-1 and 2-1 to being up 3-2 and get a game 7 back at home and very likely advance to the NBA finals. LeBron had 44/12/7 that game (some of it in the overtime that wouldn't have happened had that one play changed) and had one of the best statistical playoffs in history, but ends up the guy who let his team get upset.

a change that diminishes his perception:
2007 players, game 5 against Pistons. The game LeBron scored the cavs final 25 points to rally the team and beat the pistons in double overtime. Billups missed a shot as the clock expired in regulation. Make that shot and rather than a 48 point game where he scored the final 25 to beat the Pistons, it's a 30 point game where he scores the final 7 and they lose by 3. People are asking why he waited so long to start scoring and say he blew the game with the 3 missed foul shots in the last 3:01.
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Re: Name one game that would radically alter the perception of 

Post#67 » by Dat Pass » Wed Mar 2, 2011 3:14 pm

Jordan23Forever wrote:
Ball Boy wrote:Really? Odom boxes out Marion and the Lakers close out that series agaisnt a 2 seed in 5 games. Their next series would have been agaisnt the Clippers IN LA for all 7 games. The WCF was agaisnt the Mavs, a team they beat 2-1 in the regular season and a team that Kobe torched for 62 in 3 quarters. And its not like the team that came out of the Eastern Conference was a juggernaut or anything that year.

Obviously there was no guarantee that they were making the Finals that year, but its not "total homerism" to think that it wasnt possible.


Yes, it is. I'll leave you to figure out why thinking that a 45 win team that consisted of Kobe/Odom/Smush/Kwame/Cook/Mihm isn't winning an NBA title.


Yea, cause Im sure you figured they had a chance to beat the #2 seed Suns too. :roll:

Upsets happen. A Kobe lead team beating the Clippers isnt a stretch at all, in fact they likely would've been favored that series. And the Mavs? Who knows if they win or not, but your kidding yourself if you think they didnt have a chance to beat them.
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Re: Name one game that would radically alter the perception of 

Post#68 » by Dat Pass » Wed Mar 2, 2011 3:16 pm

Shot Clock wrote:
Ball Boy wrote:1. Really? Its BOXING OUT! Its a fundamental part of basketball and is one of the first things your taught. Anyone can box out. Kobe missing the game winner (when he had already hit plenty clutch shots in that series) isnt really a big deal. Not boxing out is a HUGE mistake. Missing a game winning jumper isnt a mistake, it happens to everyone.
.


And why was Thomas wide open? The LA defense broke down? Who during that play stood in the same spot not rotating to cover anyone? Hmmm


Im not sure what your implying, but it wasnt Kobe's man. It was a broken play where they gave up back to back offensive rebounds. Kwame got to Thomas in time but he stupidly flew past him on the shot fake.
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Re: Name one game that would radically alter the perception of 

Post#69 » by Shot Clock » Wed Mar 2, 2011 3:56 pm

Kwame was on Nash in the corner everyone moved on that play to take a man but Kobe. He never moved his feet at all and stood there playing zone on no one while his team tried to recover. Kwame ran over to cover the shot which could have just as easily meant Thomas gives it up to Nash. Kobe plays half heart effort D all the time and gets caught in no mans land. Same thing here. The loss certainly wasn't just due to a box out.
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Re: Name one game that would radically alter the perception of 

Post#70 » by Dat Pass » Wed Mar 2, 2011 4:22 pm

Shot Clock wrote:Kwame was on Nash in the corner everyone moved on that play to take a man but Kobe. He never moved his feet at all and stood there playing zone on no one while his team tried to recover. Kwame ran over to cover the shot which could have just as easily meant Thomas gives it up to Nash. Kobe plays half heart effort D all the time and gets caught in no mans land. Same thing here. The loss certainly wasn't just due to a box out.


You need to watch that replay again. Kobe was under the basket covering Diaw.

Regardless, thats not even the point thats being made.
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Re: Name one game that would radically alter the perception of 

Post#71 » by RoyceDa59 » Wed Mar 2, 2011 4:33 pm

In 2006, Ginobili doesn't foul on the last play and the Spurs beat the Mavericks. The Spurs then go onto beat the Heat in the finals and history is changed forever:

Duncan get's his 5th ring and a shot at a 3peat.
Wade no ring
Shaq doesn't get a ring without Kobe
Mourning retires with no ring.
Payton retires with no ring.
Walker retires with no ring.
Dirk never reaches the finals.
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Re: Name one game that would radically alter the perception of 

Post#72 » by MSGBallerz » Wed Mar 2, 2011 10:46 pm

Mike Bibby if Kings won in 2002. They would have also beaten the Nets obviously.

Bibby would be the hero who snapped Laker's chances at a three-peat virtually single handedly. His teammates all choked and left him on an island and he still beats two all time greats in their primes.

Instead he's just some no-name PG who even the most hardcore of NBA enthusiasts don't know much about.
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Re: Name one game that would radically alter the perception of 

Post#73 » by shawngoat23 » Sat May 7, 2011 7:03 am

Jordan23Forever wrote:
Ball Boy wrote:Really? Odom boxes out Marion and the Lakers close out that series agaisnt a 2 seed in 5 games. Their next series would have been agaisnt the Clippers IN LA for all 7 games. The WCF was agaisnt the Mavs, a team they beat 2-1 in the regular season and a team that Kobe torched for 62 in 3 quarters. And its not like the team that came out of the Eastern Conference was a juggernaut or anything that year.

Obviously there was no guarantee that they were making the Finals that year, but its not "total homerism" to think that it wasnt possible.


Yes, it is. I'll leave you to figure out why thinking that a 45 win team that consisted of Kobe/Odom/Smush/Kwame/Cook/Mihm isn't winning an NBA title.


I also have my doubts the Lakers would beat the Mavericks in 2006.
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Re: Name one game that would radically alter the perception of 

Post#74 » by JordansBulls » Sat May 7, 2011 1:23 pm

shawngoat23 wrote:
Jordan23Forever wrote:
Ball Boy wrote:Really? Odom boxes out Marion and the Lakers close out that series agaisnt a 2 seed in 5 games. Their next series would have been agaisnt the Clippers IN LA for all 7 games. The WCF was agaisnt the Mavs, a team they beat 2-1 in the regular season and a team that Kobe torched for 62 in 3 quarters. And its not like the team that came out of the Eastern Conference was a juggernaut or anything that year.

Obviously there was no guarantee that they were making the Finals that year, but its not "total homerism" to think that it wasnt possible.


Yes, it is. I'll leave you to figure out why thinking that a 45 win team that consisted of Kobe/Odom/Smush/Kwame/Cook/Mihm isn't winning an NBA title.


I also have my doubts the Lakers would beat the Mavericks in 2006.


Or the Clippers that year.
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