Trade Discussion Thread 2: DRAGIC/PICK FOR BROOKS Page 21

[YFZblu]

Yep--I'm very happy with Brooks' production thus far.

People need to quit whining about the acquisition, as if he'll be the Suns PG for the next 10 years. The Suns are trying to make the playoffs right NOW, and the Gortat/Pietrus/Carter/Brooks acquisitions were the first signs that the organization was actually doing what it said--Trying to win this year.

Up until that point, the Suns continued to play Dragic/Warrick together which to me indicated that the Suns didn't want to win now, but wanted to develop young players and find out what they had even at the expense of losing.

I'd still like to see Dudley getting significantly more minutes, and it still doesn't make sense for us to have three ball handlers in the starting lineup, but the lineup is significantly more stable than it was before the trades--I'll take it.

[lespaul89]

Typical Suns fans...forgetting that there are two sides to the basketball court. And always forgetting the more important side .

Brooks is a horrific defender. He reminds me of Barbosa defensively. Goran had the size and the speed to stay in front of his man. 2 weeks from now everyone will be loving Brooks when he puts up the points and the assists. Blinded by flash.

[YFZblu]

Typical Suns fans...forgetting that there are two sides to the basketball court. And always forgetting the more important side .

Brooks is a horrific defender. He reminds me of Barbosa defensively. Goran had the size and the speed to stay in front of his man. 2 weeks from now everyone will be loving Brooks when he puts up the points and the assists. Blinded by flash.

If you really think the Suns backup point guard's defense is going to determine the season, you have no understanding of the game--Or the way the PG position has evolved.

I'd also like to point how the "more important side" of basketball fared for the Suns in 2001, when the Suns won but a single playoff game despite having the 2nd most efficient defense in the NBA. 3-1 series loss to the Sacramento Kings:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHO/2001.html

The key to basketball is balance, which is what the Sacramento Kings had that season, and right now the Suns have it as well.

[mybloodisorange]

They saw a chance to get a much more dynamic and consistent scorer in Brooks... and Puff... the magic Dragon was gone.

Frankstradamus is my new hero for working puff the magic dragon into a sentance about basketball that actually made sense.

[BurningHeart]

Bottom line is....if you're going to play a fast paced straight up run n' gun style, you need a rebounder. I trust my guys to make more of their shots than I trust yours to. I just need someone to rebound your
misses, and I'll be fine.

THAT concept wasn't understood, not the "defense" that all the unintelligent outsiders looking at our team loves to harp about, because they get their talking points from other idiots and members in the media.

[Cutter]

Bottom line is....if you're going to play a fast paced straight up run n' gun style, you need a rebounder. I trust my guys to make more of their shots than I trust yours to. I just need someone to rebound your
misses, and I'll be fine.

THAT concept wasn't understood, not the "defense" that all the unintelligent outsiders looking at our team loves to harp about, because they get their talking points from other idiots and members in the media.

Very good description of the Suns style of play.

[lespaul89]

Typical Suns fans...forgetting that there are two sides to the basketball court. And always forgetting the more important side .

Brooks is a horrific defender. He reminds me of Barbosa defensively. Goran had the size and the speed to stay in front of his man. 2 weeks from now everyone will be loving Brooks when he puts up the points and the assists. Blinded by flash.

If you really think the Suns backup point guard's defense is going to determine the season, you have no understanding of the game--Or the way the PG position has evolved.

I'd also like to point how the "more important side" of basketball fared for the Suns in 2001, when the Suns won but a single playoff game despite having the 2nd most efficient defense in the NBA. 3-1 series loss to the Sacramento Kings:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHO/2001.html

The key to basketball is balance, which is what the Sacramento Kings had that season, and right now the Suns have it as well.

You make a point about evolution but then reference a series in 2001. Ironic. And yes, that is only 10 years ago, but if you ever watch a game from back then it will only take you a couple of minutes to see how different the game was.

And defense is important in every position. Goran was one of the biggest reasons we beat the Spurs last year. And not because he put up 26 against them. It's because Parker couldn't pentatrate when Goran was guarding him. It was completely different than any other series against the Spurs. Ever watch the replays of when the Spurs beat us? It was literally a layup line. Goran could stay in front of Parker and Manu. I guarantee you Brooks can't.

Defense Wins.
Suns lose.

[YFZblu]

You make a point about evolution but then reference a series in 2001. Ironic.

The reason I brought up 2001 is because people have been claiming 'defense wins championships' forever. It's the perfect example of an incomplete thought.

And defense is important in every position.

Sure, but don't treat positions equally. PG's can act as disruptors, but only to a degree. Big men secure defenses.

Goran was one of the biggest reasons we beat the Spurs last year.

Another example of a fan still in the Goran Dragic 2010 honeymoon phase. Dragic was one of the worst players in the NBA this season, and the data supports it.

Defense Wins.

Defense is important, but a healthy balance of defense and the ability to execute offensively is what truly wins basketball games. There are plenty of really good defensive teams that never win a playoff series because they can't score.

[TheJohnWallShow]

To whoever said Jeff Green was a poor mans Boris Diaw, not exact words, but same sense, you are an idiot lol, sorry but try and catch a couple NBA games other than the Suns. That was one of the worst comparisons ive ever seen.

As for Dragic and Brooks,

Shooting- Brooks>Dragic
Passing- Something niether one seem to like to do at all, but overall pretty equal.
Running plays- Again, pretty equal, niether one like to do it.
Defense- Slight edge to Dragic due to his size.
Toughness- Both pretty soft overall, if you disagree watch footage. Dragic appears to have more heart but he got punked around just as much, if not more than Brooks.


I seriously dont understand why people think this was a bad trade. Brooks is better than most the PGs available in the draft this year other than Irving, and possibly Knight. But none of those players would have seen the light of day behind Nash and Dragic, unless your one of those guys who thinks were trading Nash for sure, which is a coin toss at this point. When Brooks actually gets legit minutes he will be much better than Dragic. At times the past couple days I couldnt believe they took him out so early because he was playing so efficient.

Basically, if you think Dragic is a better player than Brooks, I need the number to your drug dealer ASAP.

[BurningHeart]

No need to be such a condescending ass.

[TheJohnWallShow]

Just calling it like it is, if you are referring to me.

[DRK]

Brooks has only played two games for us. That is not enough time to make an accurate judgement of his level of play. As Susn fan's, I doubt you have really seen enough of Brooks in Rockets uniform to even make an accurate judgement either. (Unless your'e Rocketman44)

Lets just wait for a 10-20 more games, and then start the debate's on who is better. Because right now, I bet my left nut that half the stuff people are saying about Brook's strength's and weaknesses are not from actually seeing him play, but from using him in 2K11 or reading other people's posts.

[Fo-Real]

True about it being too early to judge Brooks, but it is definitly a fact that he is meshing faster than anyone thought he would. It is also a fact that this year, Dragic was bad for the flow of the ofense. When he came in this year, the ball movement was bad, only being around the perimeter, and the bigs stopped getting fed. So far, it seems that Brooks is better at running the ofense, and hell, Dowdell was better at. Witch is why the rumors are that Dragic was going to lose his job.

[Sun Scorched]

As for Dragic and Brooks,

Shooting- Brooks>Dragic

Brooks' TS% 46.5%, ORtg - 99
Dragic's TS% 49.2%, ORtg - 93

Dragic's offensive rating is horrible, to your point about him not playing well this year, but he is in fact a better "shooter" for whatever that's worth. Neither has a great TS%, but for as much as Brooks gets labeled a "shooter", you would hope that his TS% would be much higher. BTW, Brooks took 17.2 shots per 36 to Dragic's 13.3 per 36. So yes, he shoots a lot more, but he's less efficient.

Passing- Something niether one seem to like to do at all, but overall pretty equal.

Brooks' AST% 25.3%, Per 36 5.7 apg
Dragic's AST% 27% Per 36 5.6 apg

Again, to your point: Neither does it at a great clip, but you only needed to watch games in order to see that Dragic was a truly special passer, leagues ahead of Brooks.

Running plays- Again, pretty equal, niether one like to do it.

Kind of falls into the above, but I will give you this one. The second unit just didn't seem built to compliment Dragic's Eruo-guard style of play. Funny how important Amundson was to the OFFENSE of our second unit, huh?

Defense- Slight edge to Dragic due to his size.

Brook's DRtg - 114
Dragic's DRtg - 111

Pretty blah here, though Dragic's size was what was important in my mind. He could play the 2 in some sets and I was looking forward to him playing more off-guard, 2-slot. But alas....

Toughness- Both pretty soft overall, if you disagree watch footage. Dragic appears to have more heart but he got punked around just as much, if not more than Brooks.

I can't imagine you're actually basing this off of anything, so I don't know how to address.

Basically, if you think Dragic is a better player than Brooks, I need the number to your drug dealer ASAP.

Basically, if you think Brooks is a better player....

To take it one step further, is he worth giving up a young PG on a 2nd round rookie scale contract PLUS a 1st round pick for a guy who will be an RFA this offseason?

That's really the only point here.

[JohnVancouver]

Just calling it like it is, if you are referring to me.

No, calling it as you see it - when I got to "neither likes to pass" I tuned out

[JohnVancouver]

As for Dragic and Brooks,

Shooting- Brooks>Dragic

Brooks' TS% 46.5%, ORtg - 99
Dragic's TS% 49.2%, ORtg - 93

Dragic's offensive rating is horrible, to your point about him not playing well this year, but he is in fact a better "shooter" for whatever that's worth. Neither has a great TS%, but for as much as Brooks gets labeled a "shooter", you would hope that his TS% would be much higher. BTW, Brooks took 17.2 shots per 36 to Dragic's 13.3 per 36. So yes, he shoots a lot more, but he's less efficient.

Passing- Something niether one seem to like to do at all, but overall pretty equal.

Brooks' AST% 25.3%, Per 36 5.7 apg
Dragic's AST% 27% Per 36 5.6 apg

Again, to your point: Neither does it at a great clip, but you only needed to watch games in order to see that Dragic was a truly special passer, leagues ahead of Brooks.

Running plays- Again, pretty equal, niether one like to do it.

Kind of falls into the above, but I will give you this one. The second unit just didn't seem built to compliment Dragic's Eruo-guard style of play. Funny how important Amundson was to the OFFENSE of our second unit, huh?

Defense- Slight edge to Dragic due to his size.

Brook's DRtg - 114
Dragic's DRtg - 111

Pretty blah here, though Dragic's size was what was important in my mind. He could play the 2 in some sets and I was looking forward to him playing more off-guard, 2-slot. But alas....

Toughness- Both pretty soft overall, if you disagree watch footage. Dragic appears to have more heart but he got punked around just as much, if not more than Brooks.

I can't imagine you're actually basing this off of anything, so I don't know how to address.

Basically, if you think Dragic is a better player than Brooks, I need the number to your drug dealer ASAP.

Basically, if you think Brooks is a better player....

To take it one step further, is he worth giving up a young PG on a 2nd round rookie scale contract PLUS a 1st round pick for a guy who will be an RFA this offseason?

That's really the only point here.

Nicely done -

[Frank Lee]

Brooks' FAASB% > Dragic's, however Dragic's ATSS% dwarfs Brooks'
Its a wash on their BUTNL% But I think Brooks gets the edge in LLSF%

of course there will be those who can always counter with Dragic's DAH #s

[SSOL]

Let's not forget that Dragic will be a free agent after next season barring an extension. If the front office truly did not feel Dragic was the next pg of this team and did not have an intention of extending him, I don't hate the move.

[jcsunsfan]

Typical Suns fans...forgetting that there are two sides to the basketball court. And always forgetting the more important side .

Brooks is a horrific defender. He reminds me of Barbosa defensively. Goran had the size and the speed to stay in front of his man. 2 weeks from now everyone will be loving Brooks when he puts up the points and the assists. Blinded by flash.

That is absolute baloney. A pg that cannot run an offense is nearly worthless. A pg that does not play defense at a high level can still be quite effective. That's why defensive specialists are almost always wing players. You can really contribute one the wing playing D without much offense. But you cannot do that a pg.

[Frank Lee]

I have come to the conclusion the Phnx front office believes Brooks is a capable starter. I think they felt Dragic was still a few yrs away. By acquiring Brooks they can go forward with the flexibility of dealing Nash if need be, w/o having to scramble to find a qualified starting PG.

I think they intend to sign him. They have his 'bird rights' to be able to match any offers. It would not make sense for us to 'rent' him at the expense of a capable PG and draft pick.

I do not know if signing him effects us using the MLE or what ever methods we decide on to add additional an FA.