Today's Derrick Rose vs. MVP Season of Iverson?

[slick_watts]

I'm far from a Rose homer, and I don't even think he's top 5 in the MVP race, but the Bulls have missed Noah and Boozer for a lot of the season, and that has hurt their offense more than their defense. The Bulls Ortg is 106.6, compared to the 76ers that year, which was 103.6. And Iverson has always been a extremely inefficient player.

Just FYI, you can't compare ORTG like that across eras, you should compare them relative to league average at the time to account for differences in league rules among other things.

League average ORTG this season is 107.1, in 2001 it was 103.0. So AI's team had an above average offense, while the Bulls are below average this year.

[NYK 455]

I'm far from a Rose homer, and I don't even think he's top 5 in the MVP race, but the Bulls have missed Noah and Boozer for a lot of the season, and that has hurt their offense more than their defense. The Bulls Ortg is 106.6, compared to the 76ers that year, which was 103.6. And Iverson has always been a extremely inefficient player.

Just FYI, you can't compare ORTG like that across eras, you should compare them relative to league average at the time to account for differences in league rules among other things.

League average ORTG this season is 107.1, in 2001 it was 103.0. So AI's team had an above average offense, while the Bulls are below average this year.

Fair enough, good point.

[The_Answer]

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[AgEnT50]

you know the ANSWER to the question...

[tclg]

I think its really close

[Dark Radiance]

This is easily Iverson. Teams feared him a hell of a lot more than they do Derrick Rose. I believe he had 3 50 point games in the playoffs alone plus that 47 point game against the Lakers. Derrick Rose hasn't shown anything close to IVerson's ability to take over in big games, not to mention defences were a lot tougher back then and the pace was slower. Iverson to me had a better mid-range game in terms of being able to make tough contested jumpers, and his offensive repertoire was better. He was more skilled, which you'd expect since he's been around longer.

[X-Factor]

This is easily Iverson. Teams feared him a hell of a lot more than they do Derrick Rose. I believe he had 3 50 point games in the playoffs alone plus that 47 point game against the Lakers. Derrick Rose hasn't shown anything close to IVerson's ability to take over in big games, not to mention defences were a lot tougher back then and the pace was slower. Iverson to me had a better mid-range game in terms of being able to make tough contested jumpers, and his offensive repertoire was better. He was more skilled, which you'd expect since he's been around longer.

Seems as if someone joined RealGm just to answer this question.

[Dark Radiance]

This is easily Iverson. Teams feared him a hell of a lot more than they do Derrick Rose. I believe he had 3 50 point games in the playoffs alone plus that 47 point game against the Lakers. Derrick Rose hasn't shown anything close to IVerson's ability to take over in big games, not to mention defences were a lot tougher back then and the pace was slower. Iverson to me had a better mid-range game in terms of being able to make tough contested jumpers, and his offensive repertoire was better. He was more skilled, which you'd expect since he's been around longer.

Seems as if someone joined RealGm just to answer this question.

II've always been a member here. I just like Prosportsdaily better.

[mysticbb]

This is easily Iverson. Teams feared him a hell of a lot more than they do Derrick Rose. I believe he had 3 50 point games in the playoffs alone plus that 47 point game against the Lakers.

It were two 50+ points performances, both against the Raptors.

But well, let us check some of Iverson's games in those playoffs. How about his 10-31 performance for 33 points and the 76ers win due to their better defensive frontcourt against the Pacers? Or a 8-27 performance for 21 points, sure as hell the reason for the win against the Raptors. Or 5-27 for 15 points against the Bucks and the 76ers win? Sure as hell some examples of the bad 76ers while Iverson had to carry them, right?

Derrick Rose hasn't shown anything close to IVerson's ability to take over in big games,

Seems like someone missed Rose playoff debut against the Celtics in 2009, when he tied Abdul-Jabbar's record with 36 points. Yeah, not a big game. And this season so far? Controlling big games like the one against the Spurs? Or more recently against the Heat last night?

And it is funny how everyone seems to forget how bad the Eastern Conference was at this time. The 76ers played the -0.77 SRS Pacers in the 1st round, the 1.69 SRS Raptors in the 2nd round and the 3.13 Bucks in the ECF. Heck, Rose leading the Bulls in 2009 to 7 games vs. the 7.44 SRS Celtics is much more impressive than the 76ers needing 7 games against two teams which were way worse than the 2009 Celtics (or 2010 Cavaliers). Big games? The 76ers in 2001 had 5 big games in the playoffs, in the 1st one the Lakers underestimated Iverson, because they didn't take him seriously, in the next 4 it showed what it means to play a big game for Iverson.

The only reason for Iverson winning the MVP award in 2001 was the weak Eastern Conference, if the 76ers would have played in the West, nobody would have thought about him being the MVP. And today people are using that MVP award to justify picking Iverson in a comparison were he is the slightly worse offensive player and worse defender.

the pace was slower.

76ers in those 71 games with Iverson played on a 91.4 pace, the Bulls with Rose are playing on a 91.0 pace. Yeah, for sure the pace was slower in 2001 for Iverson. :roll:

[eyeatoma]

For people who think that Rose is better than Iverson. Watch this...

Iverson in his absolute prime. Nobody quicker, more creative on the offensive end, or worked harder to win within the game. Rose is good, but Iverson was on another stratosphere. People say they wish McGrady practiced. If Iverson practiced he probably would have won a couple of championships...

Thats the most amazing thing about him. Iverson never practiced. How many people can have a 27 ppg career average, and take their team to the finals, win an MVP, and be a 11 time allstar. There is no one in the league who had more in such a small package, like he did. Rose isn't even close to Iverson as a scorer. As a passer he is better, but Iverson is severely underrated in this department as well

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APa_9aXc4rg&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_U-WK7ey3U&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]

[actrived]

For people who think that Rose is better than Iverson. Watch this...

Iverson in his absolute prime. Nobody quicker, more creative on the offensive end, or worked harder to win within the game. Rose is good, but Iverson was on another stratosphere. People say they wish McGrady practiced. If Iverson practiced he probably would have won a couple of championships...

Thats the most amazing thing about him. Iverson never practiced. How many people can have a 27 ppg career average, and take their team to the finals, win an MVP, and be a 11 time allstar. There is no one in the league who had more in such a small package, like he did. Rose isn't even close to Iverson as a scorer. As a passer he is better, but Iverson is severely underrated in this department as well

I don't think this should be included as a positive. In fact, I think it counts against him.
"How's me practicin' goin make my teammates better?"

Derrick said yesterday, in a serious/uncocky way: "Jo sticks me sometimes in practice, so if anything LeBron is just bigger, way bigger."

He CLEARLY makes his teammates better by practicing. Numbers-wise AI has him beat, but Derrick generally shows tremendous poise in crucial moments and has the humility to create powerful team chemistry.

I love The Answer and would likely take him over Rose right now, but if Derrick improves at the same rate as he has, it'll be D-Rose in a year or two.

[Bucksfans1and2]

If Rose got the calls that Iverson did there wouldn't be any discussion for MVP. The same could be said for Howard though who would probably shoot FTs on every possession.

[Shill]

I always respected Iverson's heart and toughness, but I think he's wildly overrated. I just wasn't really a fan of his style of play. He was the definition of a chucker. He didn't play with the most talented offensive lot so he had to force the issue, but jeez, that dude had no conscience about jacking 'em up.

I have no doubts Rose could score 30 a game, too, if he took 28 friggin' shots, and recklessly threw his body into defenders in the paint (but as I said, I respected that fearlessness about Iverson).

Iverson was great, but I think his style of play coupled with the streetball ascendancy at the time (every 5'8" dude at your local pick-up game spot wanted to be AI) has turned him into some mythical player.

He's a HOFer for sure, but some of the stuff I'm reading in this thread is pretty funny.

[eyeatoma]

For people who think that Rose is better than Iverson. Watch this...

Iverson in his absolute prime. Nobody quicker, more creative on the offensive end, or worked harder to win within the game. Rose is good, but Iverson was on another stratosphere. People say they wish McGrady practiced. If Iverson practiced he probably would have won a couple of championships...

Thats the most amazing thing about him. Iverson never practiced. How many people can have a 27 ppg career average, and take their team to the finals, win an MVP, and be a 11 time allstar. There is no one in the league who had more in such a small package, like he did. Rose isn't even close to Iverson as a scorer. As a passer he is better, but Iverson is severely underrated in this department as well

I don't think this should be included as a positive. In fact, I think it counts against him.
"How's me practicin' goin make my teammates better?"

Derrick said yesterday, in a serious/uncocky way: "Jo sticks me sometimes in practice, so if anything LeBron is just bigger, way bigger."

He CLEARLY makes his teammates better by practicing. Numbers-wise AI has him beat, but Derrick generally shows tremendous poise in crucial moments and has the humility to create powerful team chemistry.

I love The Answer and would likely take him over Rose right now, but if Derrick improves at the same rate as he has, it'll be D-Rose in a year or two.

It just goes to show that talent wise Iverson was a better player. Rose took 2 years to produce how he did. Iverson broke records during his rookie year. 8 40 point games in a row, 20+ scoring average etc...He did more with much less. If he had an organization that surrounded him with actual stars, he wouldn't have been the same player he turned out to be, you know that as much as I do. I was just saying, that Iverson in his MVP year, could have beaten any team, if he had a better squad. If the sixers front line was Noah and Boozer, they would have won in the finals against the Lakers that year...

[Sunk Cost]

It just goes to show that talent wise Iverson was a better player. Rose took 2 years to produce how he did. Iverson broke records during his rookie year. Iverson broke records during his rookie year. 8 40 point games in a row, 20+ scoring average etc...He did more with much less. If he had an organization that surrounded him with actual stars, he wouldn't have been the same player he turned out to be, you know that as much as I do.

Rose came out a year earlier, and in his second year he averaged 2.7 PPG less than Iverson while shooting 8% better. You're only talking about points, so Iverson did slightly more with more, since he was able to take more shots on his team. Iverson's second year he had 22/6 with three turnovers, which clearly isn't as good as Rose this year. You could say that's because Rose has better teammates, but saying Iverson was more talented at this point is crazy.

[Bucksfans1and2]

Seriously...

Allen Iverson PPG LLLLLLUUUULLLLLLLLLLLZZZZZZZZZ!!!!!!!!!!111!!!111!!!!!!!!!!

[nonemus]

Rose, fairly easily imo. Slightly better offensively while being much better defensively.

[Vinsanity420]

Stop pretending like rule changes don't have a lot to do with scoring efficiency, we saw old AI under these joke of perimeter defense rules, and he was more efficient and had higher volume,

This pretty much. His TS% was around 54-56 right after the hand-check rules were enforced... and his individual O Ratings were around Rose's as well... there is absolutely no reason he wouldn't be at least replicating those numbers from his MVP season. He would be scoring at a higher volume and just as efficient as Rose is today.

[Slap]

Per 36 minutes values:

Rose: 23.4/4.2/7.8 with 53.3 ts% and 10.3 To-R
Iverson: 26.7/3.3/3.9 with 51.8 ts% and 8.8 To-R

Rose is the better defender and it seems like also the better offensive player (3.3 points less, but 3.9 assists more), Rose also rebounds better than Iverson.

Rose is the better player today than Iverson in 2001.

Why would you automatically assume Rose is the better defender? From what I have seen he is very poor on defense. At least Iverson led the league in steals that year.

Rose is a great defender btw.

I take Rose, he's not a ballhog and plays within a team.

[actrived]

Per 36 minutes values:

Rose: 23.4/4.2/7.8 with 53.3 ts% and 10.3 To-R
Iverson: 26.7/3.3/3.9 with 51.8 ts% and 8.8 To-R

Rose is the better defender and it seems like also the better offensive player (3.3 points less, but 3.9 assists more), Rose also rebounds better than Iverson.

Rose is the better player today than Iverson in 2001.

Why would you automatically assume Rose is the better defender? From what I have seen he is very poor on defense. At least Iverson led the league in steals that year.

Rose is a great defender btw.

I take Rose, he's not a ballhog and plays within a team.

As much as I want to agree, I can't. I'm a pretty huge D-Rose homer, to be perfectly honest, but Derricks defense is good but definitely not great. Synergy has him as a fantastic man defender. That much is true. However, he still struggles to fight through screens and has difficulty defending the pick and roll.

He is not great, but is no longer a defensive liability by any means. He is rapidly improving though and will continue to get better. He even voluntarily D'ed up Wade in the recent Heat/Bulls game, doing a solid job in the process.