Other fans using the "Kobe" argument

[italianleather]

Funny observation.

I believe many of the Lakers fans got involved in a debate regarding Kobe and will would typically use statements like
- "Kobe constantly draws double/triple teams and puts the defense under lots of pressure"
- "Who cares about efficiency? All it matters is to win."

Normally, other fanbase would shot down the argument by drawing out lots of statistics to counter the pro-Kobe argument.

However, recently I saw that other fans are using the same argument as well.

Stop pretending like rule changes don't have a lot to do with scoring efficiency, we saw old AI under these joke of perimeter defense rules, and he was more efficient and had higher volume,

Rose is not an efficient scorer, and he's low volume comparatively.

He's not some offensive dynamo, he's cut from the same aggressive mold, but he's not as talented as a pure scorer and doesn't put nearly as much pressure on a defense.

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1098011&start=30

Efficiency can kiss my ass. Rose is the Bulls' offense. Deng going 2-12 and Korver missing every single of his shots in the 2nd half didn't help any.

Hornets just packed the paint and Rose had to in the trees of three and get the bucket, he got blocked a couple of times but there were couple of times where he was mugged without a call.

Like I said Efficiency can kiss my ass, I will take whatever Rose is doing and helping the Bulls win no matter how ugly the games become.
Rose with 24 points 4 rebounds 9 assists 1 steal 2 blocks (leading all PGs in blocks).

Gutted it out, the whole team looked out of Gas but Rose refuse to lose is good enough for me.

If Rose is not the front runner for MVP right now, people need to pay more attention I guess.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1097518&start=375

Both are long term posters and I've seen some good insights from them.

Not saying its right or wrong. Just thought that its interesting to see other fan base using the same argument to push their agenda.

[Optms]

What NO-KG-AI forgot to mention there is that Rose is a better team player than Iverson ever was.

If he took the time to watch Bulls games, or games in general, he too would understand that instead of relying on his stats sheets which feeds him distorted information. Or maybe he has an agenda, too, I don't know.

Iverson was the greater talent but he was entirely all about himself, so its stupid to go back and cherry pick stats from that type of player to use them for leverage over someone like Rose, who is one of the most humble guys we have in this league. That cut from the same mold remark made me laugh.

[Gek]

I'd say at this point in his career, Iverson is a better player than Rose. Iverson led an absolutely atrocious team to the NBA finals as a scoring point guard - that is not easy.

[Optms]

Sure, but I wouldn't want him on my team unless I had a slew of low quality guys the way AI did in '01. His game isn't complimentary to your prototypical winning system.

[Gek]

Well yeah, obviously. If he can take the 76ers and have them be the only team that beat the Lakers in the playoffs that year, but can't get to the NBA finals when paired with Carmelo and a decent front court - he's not a team player.


If Iverson was placed on a team with the good to great defenders, rebounders and three point shooters (no other scorers, just three point shooters). He would have won a few rings.

[jigga_man]

Well yeah, obviously. If he can take the 76ers and have them be the only team that beat the Lakers in the playoffs that year, but can't get to the NBA finals when paired with Carmelo and a decent front court - he's not a team player.


If Iverson was placed on a team with the good to great defenders, rebounders and three point shooters (no other scorers, just three point shooters). He would have won a few rings.

the 01 sixers had great rebounders and defenders, it was the perfect team for him. Are you saying If he had just a few three point shooters, the 76ers would be a dynasty?

Iverson was an inefficient chucker who needed defensive role players to have any success. Any time you put a reasonable 2nd option beside him, he falters. Iverson could easily be in the NBA right now, if it wasn't for his style of play and pig headed-ness.(ball hog)

[Gek]

Playoff team roster (By Minutes Played)...

Iverson
McKie
Mutombo
Snow
Tyrone Hill
Jumain Jones
George Lynch
Todd MacCulloch
Matt Geiger
Raja Bell (Rookie)
Kevin Ollie
Rodney Buford


Outside of Ratliff and Mutombo, that is an atrocious roster of players that, with the exception of Raja Bell and barring MacCulloch's shortened career, have accomplished almost literally nothing productive in the remainder of their NBA careers. Not saying that they were all terrible players, Hill and Lynch and Geiger were all good hustle players throughout their career, but they were very aged and worn down at that point. That is just a bad team. He had two solids bigs (I'll even say above average because of the shot blocking monster that is Theo and Mutombo) to help him, nothing else.

[jigga_man]

Playoff team roster (By Minutes Played)...

Iverson
McKie
Mutombo
Snow
Tyrone Hill
Jumain Jones
George Lynch
Todd MacCulloch
Matt Geiger
Raja Bell (Rookie)
Kevin Ollie
Rodney Buford


Outside of Ratliff and Mutombo, that is an atrocious roster of players that, with the exception of Raja Bell and barring MacCulloch's shortened career, have accomplished almost literally nothing productive in the remainder of their NBA careers. Not saying that they were all terrible players, Hill and Lynch and Geiger were all good hustle players throughout their career, but they were very aged and worn down at that point. That is just a bad team. He had two solids bigs (I'll even say above average because of the shot blocking monster that is Theo and Mutombo) to help him, nothing else.

Why is that roster atrocious? Because they suck at scoring? Defense is 50% of the game. The 01 sixers are one of the best defensive teams in the last decade. Hell, Mutombo was one of the best defensive anchor's any team could have. There whole starting 5 can defend. I don't think you can say that about any team in the NBA right now.

Like I said earlier, that was the perfect team for him. All he did was take a ton of shots, made them at a below average efficent rate, and barley made anyone better around him. I believe if you replace AI with any other elite scorer in the league at that time(Kobe, TMac, Vince) They would have accomplished the same thing.

[Gek]

That is up there with the worst roster to ever reach the NBA finals. Sure, great inside defense, but old and piss poor offensively outside of Iverson. He created everyones points.

If you put Vince in there, they would not have been successful - imo, even in his prime, Vince couldn't single handedly lead a team offensively to an NBA title. He's a great scorer, but I don't think he is that type of scorer/leader/player. T mac doesn't have the gonads to get a team out of the first round. Kobe would be successful. Although Kobe hasn't ever led a team out of the first round by himself... it was a miracle the Lakers were even competitive those few years looking at the rosters.

In terms of players of the last decade, Wade and LeBron have the best shot and they would both have arguments for the worst teams to reach the final in recent memory.

[Edrees]

Lebron definitely but Wade? are you crazy? He had the best center in the league on his team. even if shaq was past his prime, he was still an elite center at the time, there is no way belongs in that discussion of worst supporting casts to reach the nba finals. I'd say iverson and lebron both contest for it though.

[jigga_man]

That is up there with the worst roster to ever reach the NBA finals. Sure, great inside defense, but old and piss poor offensively outside of Iverson. He created everyones points.

If you put Vince in there, they would not have been successful - imo, even in his prime, Vince couldn't single handedly lead a team offensively to an NBA title. He's a great scorer, but I don't think he is that type of scorer/leader/player. T mac doesn't have the gonads to get a team out of the first round. Kobe would be successful. Although Kobe hasn't ever led a team out of the first round by himself... it was a miracle the Lakers were even competitive those few years looking at the rosters.

In terms of players of the last decade, Wade and LeBron have the best shot and they would both have arguments for the worst teams to reach the final in recent memory.

Neither can AI. And you are severely underrating Vince in his prime. Vince was unreal that year, carrying a worse a Raptors and almost beating the sixers by himself. He was one buzzer beater fadeaway from eliminating the sixers in game 7 that season. If that shot went in, AI would have never advanced past the second round, and his reputation would be barely better than Tmac.

Speaking of T-mac he was on some awful defensive teams in Orlando, and his back was never quite the same in Houston. T-mac 02-03 season is one of the best statistical seasons a SG has ever had. He had a PER over 30(one of 7 players ever to achieve that). He was significantly better than AI in his prime. No doubt in my mind he could have carried the 01 Sixers team that year to the finals.( the east was awful that year.)

Statistic wise, yeah his supporting cast sucks, if you just look on paper. )But individually, especially Motumbo.) That was one of the best defensive teams I've seen. Only Boston in 07-08 and Detroit 03-04 this past decade can compare. there is a reason why he never achieved even close to that kind of success after that. It was a combination of luck and the right pieces to fit. I don't even think he made it past the first round after that season, if I'm not mistaken.