Last 10 seconds - Lebron vs Kobe

[ElGee]

Here's an interesting point: LeBron generally dominates the "clutch stats" at 82games.com despite his abysmal last shot stats, meaning that LeBron must be extra super dominant during the clutch time leading up to the last shot.

Not really - we're talking about a few minutes total of basketball in the last few years using the 10 second criterion. He's taken 20 shots according to OP.

In his best 3-year stretch using the 82games criteria he took 363 shots in 477 minutes. He could be 0-20 or 20-20 in the final 10 seconds and it wouldn't change his 82games numbers much at all. This is super-small sample size stuff.

[KhanAir23]

Kobe's numbers are completely inflated by that once-in-a-lifetime season he had last year on last-seconds shots. I'm willing to bet anything he's a sub-25% shooter for his career in that situation otherwise.

he is actually over 30%

[joelafan]

Kobe's numbers are completely inflated by that once-in-a-lifetime season he had last year on last-seconds shots. I'm willing to bet anything he's a sub-25% shooter for his career in that situation otherwise.

he is actually over 30%

hes actually 45%

[KhanAir23]

Durant cant create his own shot. Without someone to set a pick for him he's nothing.

All he does is brick shots in the clutch

^^^
Candidate for Joke Of The Year Post at RealGM



So you're saying, the top scorer in the league, and the MVP of the FIBA 2010 World Championship, cannot create his own shot? You mean a guy averaging 28 ppg per game, is unable to create his own shots, and does all the scoring from picks?

Have you even watched a Thunder game?


Thanks for making me laugh tho.

Ummm.. he's right.

NO HES NOT! He can pretty much make any shot on the floor if he gets hot, guarded or not.
Hes knock down shooter and the fact there are 2 ppl in this world who think durant cant create his own shots is laughable.

[shawngoat23]

Kobe's clutch ability gets overblown, but I'd still take him over LeBron in the last ten seconds, despite whatever stats say LeBron plays well in the last 5 minutes. I don't think there is anyone today I'd take over Kobe in the last 10 seconds, although there are quite a few I'd consider on par.

For the other 59:50 of the game, I'll take LeBron.

[bl2k]

Kobe
Dirk
Melo

nobody else really matters

[SideshowBob]

http://82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm

This is basically a list of game winners from 03-08, the sample immediately prior to the OP's, at this point Lebron was the leader and at a fairly decent relative percentage. From that point on, he's really struggled on last shot attempts. Kobe, on the other hand, has really moved up, if we add in the 10-20, he's now 24-60 since 03 on said shot attempts. Kobe's clutch reputation was overblown prior to this run he's had in the past three years, but he's really been THE MAN you want for that last shot. Is it because he has some sort of ridiculous godliness in tight situations? Maybe, but its more likely that he's the league's most versatile scorer, and a fantastic jump shooter that can confidently get any shot he wants in virtually any situation.

[Imadogg]

Nice work.

Can you add FTA, ast and 3 pt shots?
Also, can you post the list of games these are from?

I can sort out 3pts/2pt jumpers/layups and yes I have the list of games.. ast/FTA would take me even longer though and I'd die.

I can also get the list of games, I'll post when I get time

the only shot i can think of that made kobe in the last 10 seconds this year is when the Suns let him get the bucket because they had a 5 point lead or so and they didnt want to foul. So that wasnt clutch at all.

That wouldn't qualify in these stats.

Blazers game like someone posted.

His other 2 attempts came in the same game, in a loss to Indy

Kobe's numbers are completely inflated by that once-in-a-lifetime season he had last year on last-seconds shots. I'm willing to bet anything he's a sub-25% shooter for his career in that situation otherwise.

We'll find out as I go further back into their careers, could be true

So many qualifications . That's Kobe fans in a nutshell for you. Shall we remove all of LeBron's attempts with his team down 3 too?

Going through play-by-plays on NBA.COM a couple of days ago, Kobe's been nothing short of HORRIFIC this season in the last minute of 2-possession games. Little surprise he's barely shooting 40% in crunch time this season.

I don't think a Kobe fan made those qualifications.. http://www.82games.com/random12.htm old post but you can see there, that's the definition. I don't like it, why not down 3?

For the other 59:50 of the game, I'll take LeBron.

Lebron > Kobe for most of an NFL game, got it.

http://82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm

This is basically a list of game winners from 03-08, the sample immediately prior to the OP's, at this point Lebron was the leader and at a fairly decent relative percentage. From that point on, he's really struggled on last shot attempts. Kobe, on the other hand, has really moved up, if we add in the 10-20, he's now 24-60 since 03 on said shot attempts. Kobe's clutch reputation was overblown prior to this run he's had in the past three years, but he's really been THE MAN you want for that last shot. Is it because he has some sort of ridiculous godliness in tight situations? Maybe, but its more likely that he's the league's most versatile scorer, and a fantastic jump shooter that can confidently get any shot he wants in virtually any situation.

For some reason.. they don't track when your team is down 3. Kobe has made more game-tying 3s than Lebron...

[initiald]

Here is why and stat can't account for it.

When Kobe has the ball in his hand in close second, the opposing player thought process is already thinking "Is Kobe going to pull up at any moment"? "Will he pumps fake, and do I go for block?" "Will he drive inside to get contact or diss the ball outside?", "Should I play him tight or loose up to prevent drive in?" etc.. All these thoughts are giving Kobe an advantage in split second, enough to give a high probability for the Lakers to win by either Kobe taking the shot. And when he takes the shot, opposing teams collapsed to focus, which help his teammates crashing the board for 2nd chance (ala Artest, Gasol, etc..). Anyway you get the points.

But the reason is WHY are those players afraid of it? It's all come from reputation and experience! Because of Kobe's past reputation as a big time player and his ability to make shot at any angle, any location on the court, it makes it harder to gang up on him. All these factors accumulated over time, therefore despite Kobe's clutch performance is questionable, GMs, players, and coaches still prefer Kobe to take the last shot. In general, no matter how horrible Kobe's performance in the clutch, the ball is still in Kobe's hand. And like I said, these factors added up over time due to his experience and skill at making shot. Lebron, Wade, Carmelo, Ginobili etc.. doesn't have these factors despite probably having better percentage in clutch.

[SideshowBob]

Here is why and stat can't account for it.

When Kobe has the ball in his hand in close second, the opposing player thought process is already thinking "Is Kobe going to pull up at any moment"? "Will he pumps fake, and do I go for block?" "Will he drive inside to get contact or diss the ball outside?", "Should I play him tight or loose up to prevent drive in?" etc.. All these thoughts are giving Kobe an advantage in split second, enough to give a high probability for the Lakers to win by either Kobe taking the shot. And when he takes the shot, opposing teams collapsed to focus, which help his teammates crashing the board for 2nd chance (ala Artest, Gasol, etc..). Anyway you get the points.

But the reason is WHY are those players afraid of it? It's all come from reputation and experience! Because of Kobe's past reputation as a big time player and his ability to make shot at any angle, any location on the court, it makes it harder to gang up on him. All these factors accumulated over time, therefore despite Kobe's clutch performance is questionable, GMs, players, and coaches still prefer Kobe to take the last shot. In general, no matter how horrible Kobe's performance in the clutch, the ball is still in Kobe's hand. And like I said, these factors added up over time due to his experience and skill at making shot. Lebron, Wade, Carmelo, Ginobili etc.. doesn't have these factors despite probably having better percentage in clutch.

+1 The intimidation factor is underrated

[colts18]

Here is why and stat can't account for it.

When Kobe has the ball in his hand in close second, the opposing player thought process is already thinking "Is Kobe going to pull up at any moment"? "Will he pumps fake, and do I go for block?" "Will he drive inside to get contact or diss the ball outside?", "Should I play him tight or loose up to prevent drive in?" etc.. All these thoughts are giving Kobe an advantage in split second, enough to give a high probability for the Lakers to win by either Kobe taking the shot. And when he takes the shot, opposing teams collapsed to focus, which help his teammates crashing the board for 2nd chance (ala Artest, Gasol, etc..). Anyway you get the points.

But the reason is WHY are those players afraid of it? It's all come from reputation and experience! Because of Kobe's past reputation as a big time player and his ability to make shot at any angle, any location on the court, it makes it harder to gang up on him. All these factors accumulated over time, therefore despite Kobe's clutch performance is questionable, GMs, players, and coaches still prefer Kobe to take the last shot. In general, no matter how horrible Kobe's performance in the clutch, the ball is still in Kobe's hand. And like I said, these factors added up over time due to his experience and skill at making shot. Lebron, Wade, Carmelo, Ginobili etc.. doesn't have these factors despite probably having better percentage in clutch.

By the same token the other 4 defenders on the court will think: "Is Kobe going to pass the ball in the clutch? LOL No why would he think about that" At least those defenders have to respect LeBron's ability to pass to the open man. That is why MJ was so great because Kerr and Paxson made GW shots.

[NYK 455]

kobe could have had 2/20 i would still take him over lbj for a clutch shot.

i dont cringe when kobe has the ball in the crunch.

This is really stupid reasoning.

[driver]

Lol at page 2 with the guy downing Kobe for his "once-in-a-lifetime" season. The guy won a goddamn ring that year too, that's something that's been many-in-a-lifetime for him and none-in-a-lifetime for others. He had a different fire in him that year and he showed it by helping LA get back to repeat. Trying to discredit a player, gotta be kidding me.

Last season, even Kobe's BAD shots lead to gamewinners. The various teams in the league freeze on Kobe and ball watch him. It's true, he's gonna hog the last shot and won't pass. However, his ugly airball in PHX led to Artest getting the game 5 buzzer beating GW and one in OKC with Pau getting a normal GW. Even if he is a bad clutch player, which I don't believe he is, his rep for it is so ridiculous that teams fear it.

[initiald]

Here is why and stat can't account for it.

When Kobe has the ball in his hand in close second, the opposing player thought process is already thinking "Is Kobe going to pull up at any moment"? "Will he pumps fake, and do I go for block?" "Will he drive inside to get contact or diss the ball outside?", "Should I play him tight or loose up to prevent drive in?" etc.. All these thoughts are giving Kobe an advantage in split second, enough to give a high probability for the Lakers to win by either Kobe taking the shot. And when he takes the shot, opposing teams collapsed to focus, which help his teammates crashing the board for 2nd chance (ala Artest, Gasol, etc..). Anyway you get the points.

But the reason is WHY are those players afraid of it? It's all come from reputation and experience! Because of Kobe's past reputation as a big time player and his ability to make shot at any angle, any location on the court, it makes it harder to gang up on him. All these factors accumulated over time, therefore despite Kobe's clutch performance is questionable, GMs, players, and coaches still prefer Kobe to take the last shot. In general, no matter how horrible Kobe's performance in the clutch, the ball is still in Kobe's hand. And like I said, these factors added up over time due to his experience and skill at making shot. Lebron, Wade, Carmelo, Ginobili etc.. doesn't have these factors despite probably having better percentage in clutch.

By the same token the other 4 defenders on the court will think: "Is Kobe going to pass the ball in the clutch? LOL No why would he think about that" At least those defenders have to respect LeBron's ability to pass to the open man. That is why MJ was so great because Kerr and Paxson made GW shots.

Kid, you're obviously never watch the Lakers before. They won a lot of close games because it's hard to second-guess what Kobe will do. The myth that Kobe won't pass is stupid. Kobe passed plenty of shot. Horry, Fisher, Fox, etc.. are known as big time players because they indeed get open look from Kobe penetrating and passing ability.

[Rapcity_11]

^
Kobe had 1 assist in that true hoop article a little while back.

The guy doesn't pass in the last 10 seconds.

[Shaq Daddy]

^
Kobe had 1 assist in that true hoop article a little while back.

The guy doesn't pass in the last 10 seconds.

He does but his teammates dont make the shot, which is something that you need to get an assist...

[initiald]

^
Kobe had 1 assist in that true hoop article a little while back.

The guy doesn't pass in the last 10 seconds.

Another kid who look only at stat and has no idea of the game. Why is Fish known to be clutch if Kobe never pass him the ball to shoot it? Use your brain!!

[Jay24]

The idea that Kobe doesn't pass in the clutch is just ridiculous. Do these clowns even watch the games?

He's made plenty of passes that lead to open shots by Fisher, Horry, Shaw, Odom,Pau etc.

Where do you think Fisher's rep comes from? He's certainly not creating his own looks.

[picc]

Kobe passes at the end of games more than you'd think. The assist #'s are so low because since he's taken over the team, Odom, Walton, Farmar, and Trevor Ariza have been the recipients of the passes and they all have laid hard bricks. The only other Laker who has proven to be remotely clutch is Derek Fisher.

[Gongxi]

Whoever, ya know, verifiable evidence and statistics point to. Not to what some dudes randomly think based upon their selection bias and anecdotal memory.

Crazy concept, I know: let the facts guide you to your conclusion.