Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 3

[FluLikeSymptoms]

Ohio State just won in OT over Northwestern.

Sullinger put up 22 and 17. Shot atrociously from the floor (3 of 15) but was very good from the line (16-18).

Luka Mirkovic and his mask/nervous tic would make me shoot 3-15, too. I put a rape whistle in my mouth whenever I flipped to that game.

[Rhettmatic]

Ohio State just won in OT over Northwestern.

Sullinger put up 22 and 17. Shot atrociously from the floor (3 of 15) but was very good from the line (16-18).

Luka Mirkovic and his mask/nervous tic would make me shoot 3-15, too. I put a rape whistle in my mouth whenever I flipped to that game.

I'm not usually an emoticon guy but...

[Reignman]

Sounds like it's time for Barnes to hit his 5th game winner of the season.

Guess not. He wasn't very clutch down the stretch either. Ten of 13 shots behind the arc. No free throws. One trick pony.

Sure, if you don't consider playing solid defense a trick.

Ah, don't be so hard on him, he watches games through his Bargnani goggles so defense / rebounding aren't exactly critical.

BTW, I'm kidding Dag, I know what you mean about Barnes and he definitely has some holes in his game but not anymore than any other prospect outside of Irving.

[DreamTeam09]

Taking Perry Jones is enticing to me but I just know the Raps are gonna try and make him a Power Forward or Centre. If we draft him, we need a MUCH smarter coach.

We are loaded at pf and hes definately not playing C anywhere in the NBA. Noteven in small ball rotations. If we are drafting him its because we feel he can play SF for us and create mismatches at the SF position with his length. BC likes his hybrid type players so we are more likely to put him out of position compared to the position he was playing at Baylor. Whats great are the reports that are now coming out that makes it possible to put him at SF.

[dagger]

Sounds like it's time for Barnes to hit his 5th game winner of the season.

Guess not. He wasn't very clutch down the stretch either. Ten of 13 shots behind the arc. No free throws. One trick pony.

Sure, if you don't consider playing solid defense a trick.

If you want solid defence combined with decent offence, I suggest to you there are other options. If you draft a spotup shooter, he had better be an amazing shooter. He had better be the next Ray Allen (although even the young and mid-career Ray Allen could score in many more ways and also got to the line alot).

[Reignman]

Guess not. He wasn't very clutch down the stretch either. Ten of 13 shots behind the arc. No free throws. One trick pony.

Sure, if you don't consider playing solid defense a trick.

If you want solid defence combined with decent offence, I suggest to you there are other options. If you draft a spotup shooter, he had better be an amazing shooter. He had better be the next Ray Allen (although even the young and mid-career Ray Allen could score in many more ways and also got to the line alot).

His shooting is getting better as the season progresses and looking at his form it's not inconceivable that he can actually be a very good shooter in the L. 4/10 today from 3, 40% is pretty good.

[dagger]

New draftexpress mock. A little movement in the lottery, more movement elsewhere in the first round

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-mock-draft/2011/

Nikolai Mirotec of Real Madrid up to #15. This kid could crakc the top 10 which would add some depth to the lottery. He's been on a tear for Real.

[Rhettmatic]

His shooting is getting better as the season progresses and looking at his form it's not inconceivable that he can actually be a very good shooter in the L. 4/10 today from 3, 40% is pretty good.

Are you interested in Barnes strictly as a guy who can hit the 3 ball and defend? Or are you projecting him as a guy who does way more than that?

I guess I'm asking -- what's an NBA comparison that you think will apply for Barnes?

[dagger]

His shooting is getting better as the season progresses and looking at his form it's not inconceivable that he can actually be a very good shooter in the L. 4/10 today from 3, 40% is pretty good.

The problem there is that he has to do more to be successful at the next level. Not only do you want more from a top 5 pick, but if all you do is spot up for the three, teams will play you tight. You have to put the ball on the floor, show a decent first step and good handle, show you're not averse to contract and getting to the line. Think about the best three point shooters over the years. All either could do a lot more, or benefitted from the presence of a huge superstar like Shaq to draw double or triple teams (think Jason Kapono with Miami). Rashard Lewis became a reasonably feared three point shooter with the Magic, playing with Dwight Howard, but he could still post up, dribble drive, etc. yes, 40% is pretty good, but if there's nothing else in Barnes' game, he won't hit 40% as a pro.

[Reignman]

His shooting is getting better as the season progresses and looking at his form it's not inconceivable that he can actually be a very good shooter in the L. 4/10 today from 3, 40% is pretty good.

Are you interested in Barnes strictly as a guy who can hit the 3 ball and defend? Or are you projecting him as a guy who does way more than that?

I guess I'm asking -- what's an NBA comparison that you think will apply for Barnes?

I'm definitely hoping he can do more than what he has shown especially considering I have him at #2 after Irving. He has a very good post game that we rarely see at UNC because that's where Henson usually parks himself so that's an aspect I see him looking much better at in the NBA. Also, I think once he tightens up his dribble game we'll see a much more dynamic offensive player who can play anywhere at the court.

He is a bit of a project like Demar but at the very least he should look like a Deng/Battier hybrid fairly quickly.

Edit: As a projection if things go the way I hope they do, I'm hoping he can develop into a Melo-like player. He might never have Melo's offense but he'll be a better defender/rebounder.

[Salted Meat]

If you want solid defence combined with decent offence, I suggest to you there are other options. If you draft a spotup shooter, he had better be an amazing shooter. He had better be the next Ray Allen (although even the young and mid-career Ray Allen could score in many more ways and also got to the line alot).

I'm not denying that there are flaws in Barnes' game... he's a freshman, and it's to be expected... but the kid has been playing well. He struggled early, but he's really started to turn it on. He'll definitely have to expand his game, and I think his draft position will largely be based on whether those evaluating such things think he can do that, but I think even just based on how much he's grown since the start of the season, you can see the potential is there.

The thing for me is, I don't need Barnes to be great... not right away. I need him to be coachable, play solid defense, and play within our style of game. I don't expect him to be a huge contributor next season except to stay in front of his man, rebound, and hit the open J. I'm looking at next season as another rebuild, and hope we can get our franchise-changer in the 2012 draft.

[baulderdash77]

I've changed my mind about Kemba in the last few weeks. I thought he was going to just be a volume scorer, but he's been so clutch and his ability to break guys down looks like it will translate.

The last guy that I remember beating teams 1 on 1 like this was Wade in his big tourney.

With a good tourney Kemba could rise into the top 10/top 5.

[dagger]

If you want solid defence combined with decent offence, I suggest to you there are other options. If you draft a spotup shooter, he had better be an amazing shooter. He had better be the next Ray Allen (although even the young and mid-career Ray Allen could score in many more ways and also got to the line alot).

I'm not denying that there are flaws in Barnes' game... he's a freshman, and it's to be expected... but the kid has been playing well. He struggled early, but he's really started to turn it on. He'll definitely have to expand his game, and I think his draft position will largely be based on whether those evaluating such things think he can do that, but I think even just based on how much he's grown since the start of the season, you can see the potential is there.

The thing for me is, I don't need Barnes to be great... not right away. I need him to be coachable, play solid defense, and play within our style of game. I don't expect him to be a huge contributor next season except to stay in front of his man, rebound, and hit the open J. I'm looking at next season as another rebuild, and hope we can get our franchise-changer in the 2012 draft.

That sounds like a great concept for a pick outside the top 8 but for a higher pick, I would expect better. There is a difference between a flaw and hole in one's game. A flaw is a weak handle that a player displays, but which can be worked on. Or a weak jump shot. But a hole is an potential indicator of an unwillingness to do something. Like Bargnani with rebounding. That's a hole in his game, and I find it odd that people who have spent five years criticizing him for a hole like that are ready to draft a player with big holes in his game. Flaws I can live with. Flaws are correctable. Holes can last forever.

[Reignman]

His shooting is getting better as the season progresses and looking at his form it's not inconceivable that he can actually be a very good shooter in the L. 4/10 today from 3, 40% is pretty good.

The problem there is that he has to do more to be successful at the next level. Not only do you want more from a top 5 pick, but if all you do is spot up for the three, teams will play you tight. You have to put the ball on the floor, show a decent first step and good handle, show you're not averse to contract and getting to the line. Think about the best three point shooters over the years. All either could do a lot more, or benefitted from the presence of a huge superstar like Shaq to draw double or triple teams (think Jason Kapono with Miami). Rashard Lewis became a reasonably feared three point shooter with the Magic, playing with Dwight Howard, but he could still post up, dribble drive, etc. yes, 40% is pretty good, but if there's nothing else in Barnes' game, he won't hit 40% as a pro.

I agree but I definitely think he has the potential to add those other aspects. Like I said in my response to Rhett, I hope he can develop a Melo-like game overall, a guy that can post up and still take his man out to the perimeter for the 3.

At worst, I see him as a Deng-like player.

And my main reasoning for us drafting him is by comparing him to his draft class and all I see are tweeners or undersized guys or guys just as raw as him. Really, outside of Irving, every prospect in this draft has obvious flaws that they need to work on, Barnes is no different.

[Reignman]

If you want solid defence combined with decent offence, I suggest to you there are other options. If you draft a spotup shooter, he had better be an amazing shooter. He had better be the next Ray Allen (although even the young and mid-career Ray Allen could score in many more ways and also got to the line alot).

I'm not denying that there are flaws in Barnes' game... he's a freshman, and it's to be expected... but the kid has been playing well. He struggled early, but he's really started to turn it on. He'll definitely have to expand his game, and I think his draft position will largely be based on whether those evaluating such things think he can do that, but I think even just based on how much he's grown since the start of the season, you can see the potential is there.

The thing for me is, I don't need Barnes to be great... not right away. I need him to be coachable, play solid defense, and play within our style of game. I don't expect him to be a huge contributor next season except to stay in front of his man, rebound, and hit the open J. I'm looking at next season as another rebuild, and hope we can get our franchise-changer in the 2012 draft.

That sounds like a great concept for a pick outside the top 8 but for a higher pick, I would expect better. There is a difference between a flaw and hole in one's game. A flaw is a weak handle that a player displays, but which can be worked on. Or a weak jump shot. But a hole is an potential indicator of an unwillingness to do something. Like Bargnani with rebounding. That's a hole in his game, and I find it odd that people who have spent five years criticizing him for a hole like that are ready to draft a player with big holes in his game. Flaws I can live with. Flaws are correctable. Holes can last forever.

I don't think you can claim someone has a "hole" in their game so early in this stage. Barnes has flaws right now. If those same flaws exist in 5 years then they can be considered holes.

And here's the thing, it's not like he hasn't done it before, he played inside out in HS and dominated his competition. In college he hasn't shown it off but it's coming along slowly. There's no doubt he'll need time but there's nothing in his game that looks like a fatal flaw right now.

Put it this way, I can find major flaws in every player in this draft so it's not like he's being hyped up without reason.

[5DOM]

I think hoping for a Melo-like game overall from a very average offensive college player seems too much, but I've always liked the Deng comparison. I don't think his inability to attack the rim is just because of his poor ball handling. His first step is not very good and it's amazing how a lot of average college defenders have no problem staying in front of him.

[dagger]

Here are some "rising and falling" notes from NBAdraft.net posted late yesterday. Note the Vesely comment which is right on in my opinion, and the comments about those guys who are slipping.

http://www.nbadraft.net/mock-draft-tracker-2

[TheDunc]

The more i think about it, the raptors should trade down if we cant grab the first pick and get irving. We should trade down and get a pick in the 12-16 range. Because honestly, if Barnes doesnt end up dominating in this tourney. Id much rather just take Jordan Hamilton or Burks or Leonard. Even a guy like Tristan Thompson could be a good solid player. We should package our pick with Ed davis and see what else is out there. Unless the raptors are blown away by someone in particular.

[Dr Positivity]

I agree Vesely should be in the mix for top 5. He's like Jones III but with less guard skills but more energy to make up for it. If he develops a body and strengths his post game, he could be a nightmare to guard at the 4. Even at the 3 he has AK, Thad Young type potential as a long and athletic guy

Getting Perry at 5 or 6 would be huge for us though. I don't care if he's a puss. If the most talented player in the draft falls to 5 or 6 you take him no question. Would be a rich man's version of the Demar and Ed Davis picks. Great prospects who don't have the best college years and go lower than they should. You want to take those players. Davis and Demar were top 6 talents who dropped to 9 and 13. Jones III is a #1 talent who could drop to 5 or 6. No question we have to take him if he's there. That could be the kind of break that changes franchises. If Jones III had Wall/Rose/Griffin confidence instead of Mike Miller confidence he'd be the lock #1

[Double Helix]

I also think Vesely will end up being in the mix. I was thinking Schrempf for a moment until I started looking up Schrempf again. Now, I can see why their player comparison is so bizzare. Vesely's an odd player.