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Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 3

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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 3 

Post#1001 » by Indeed » Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:13 pm

Reignman wrote:
dagger wrote:
Salted Meat wrote:I'm not denying that there are flaws in Barnes' game... he's a freshman, and it's to be expected... but the kid has been playing well. He struggled early, but he's really started to turn it on. He'll definitely have to expand his game, and I think his draft position will largely be based on whether those evaluating such things think he can do that, but I think even just based on how much he's grown since the start of the season, you can see the potential is there.

The thing for me is, I don't need Barnes to be great... not right away. I need him to be coachable, play solid defense, and play within our style of game. I don't expect him to be a huge contributor next season except to stay in front of his man, rebound, and hit the open J. I'm looking at next season as another rebuild, and hope we can get our franchise-changer in the 2012 draft.


That sounds like a great concept for a pick outside the top 8 but for a higher pick, I would expect better. There is a difference between a flaw and hole in one's game. A flaw is a weak handle that a player displays, but which can be worked on. Or a weak jump shot. But a hole is an potential indicator of an unwillingness to do something. Like Bargnani with rebounding. That's a hole in his game, and I find it odd that people who have spent five years criticizing him for a hole like that are ready to draft a player with big holes in his game. Flaws I can live with. Flaws are correctable. Holes can last forever.


I don't think you can claim someone has a "hole" in their game so early in this stage. Barnes has flaws right now. If those same flaws exist in 5 years then they can be considered holes.

And here's the thing, it's not like he hasn't done it before, he played inside out in HS and dominated his competition. In college he hasn't shown it off but it's coming along slowly. There's no doubt he'll need time but there's nothing in his game that looks like a fatal flaw right now.

Put it this way, I can find major flaws in every player in this draft so it's not like he's being hyped up without reason.


Yet, people said the same thing to Bargnani. Bargnani is a bad defender? Synergy Sport ranks him average in man defense. And yet, Barnes might be a good defender, but he has yet to go against NBA player, nor show excellent help defense.

Both Barnes and Perry Jones are Bargnani 2.0. I don't mind Bargnani, but can some of those people accept their problems? Perry Jones being soft on the perimeter and not good at rebounding (6' 11", freaking 7 footer). And Barnes staying on the perimeter and take jump shots (not gonna drive?).

I am happy with either one if we are picking between 5th - 10th. Walker would address our needs, but he is too high at 6th. Kanter and T. Jones are more likely, but will have much less effect on our team.
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 3 

Post#1002 » by Kevin Willis » Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:15 pm

People forget Derozan had a good second half of his freshman season and was steadily improving. He was realizing his potential in college so it wasn't as big a reach as suggested. He fell because he didn't dominate but he was definitely getting better. Perry didn't have that kind of freshman year and will no longer play too.
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 3 

Post#1003 » by dagger » Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:16 pm

The thing with the comparison with Schrempf is that Vesely loves to dunk. I mean he'd rather dunk than make a layup. In his Euroleague stats, three quarters of his shots are dunks and only one quarter are layups. He's got the same kind of edge that Detlef had. Vesely has added range on his shot all the way out to the three point line, but he's always been a power dunker down low.
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 3 

Post#1004 » by Silk Wilkes » Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:16 pm

If we take Perry I think its mandatory Bargs is moved and Ed Davis becomes the man at Power Forward. We would also need a Kendrick Perkins type of Centre to plug the holes.
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 3 

Post#1005 » by dagger » Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:17 pm

Kevin Willis wrote:People forget Derozan had a good second half of his sophmore season and was steadily improving. He was realizing his potential in college so it wasn't as big a reach as suggested. He fell because he didn't dominate but he was definitely getting better. Perry didn't have that kind of freshman year and will no longer play too.


I agree, that's your risk. DeRozan showed a varied game in the conference playoffs and that told a lot of draft watchers that he could give a complete game. Jones is a tease, and with the right draft slot you can consider it, but I think we can do better with a 1-5 pick.
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 3 

Post#1006 » by Dr Positivity » Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:19 pm

Indeed wrote:Yet, people said the same thing to Bargnani. Bargnani is a bad defender? Synergy Sport ranks him average in man defense. And yet, Barnes might be a good defender, but he has yet to go against NBA player, nor show excellent help defense.

Both Barnes and Perry Jones are Bargnani 2.0. I don't mind Bargnani, but can some of those people accept their problems? Perry Jones being soft on the perimeter and not good at rebounding (6' 11", freaking 7 footer). And Barnes staying on the perimeter and take jump shots (not gonna drive?).


Disagree. Perry's problem is being soft and a confidence enigma. Barnes' problem is not being as talented as people thought. His game is shooting 3s and running the floor, and he's not even that good a shooter. Barnes isn't driving cause his handle sucks.

I agree with the Perry Bargnani comparison. But Perry is more talented than Bargnani. Bargs' rebounding and defensive IQ sucks, but he also has lift issues. Perry's athleticism and length under most circumstances would give him great d and rebounding potential. Will he realize it, I dunno, but he's more talented than Bargnani. Who mind you is a 22ppg player
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 3 

Post#1007 » by Kevin Willis » Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:22 pm

dagger wrote:The thing with the comparison with Schrempf is that Vesely loves to dunk. I mean he'd rather dunk than make a layup. In his Euroleague stats, three quarters of his shots are dunks and only one quarter are layups. He's got the same kind of edge that Detlef had. Vesely has added range on his shot all the way out to the three point line, but he's always been a power dunker down low.


Agreed. And Vesely is improving this year. I mean he has that Griffin freak athleticism wow to him. If he can shoot the three I would take his body of work over Perry's in a heartbeat. Don't be shocked if we draft him. I wouldn't be. A taller AK47 with an edge is much-less a risk.

Oh yeah - Honeycutt is doody.
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 3 

Post#1008 » by Reignman » Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:23 pm

Indeed wrote:
Reignman wrote:
dagger wrote:That sounds like a great concept for a pick outside the top 8 but for a higher pick, I would expect better. There is a difference between a flaw and hole in one's game. A flaw is a weak handle that a player displays, but which can be worked on. Or a weak jump shot. But a hole is an potential indicator of an unwillingness to do something. Like Bargnani with rebounding. That's a hole in his game, and I find it odd that people who have spent five years criticizing him for a hole like that are ready to draft a player with big holes in his game. Flaws I can live with. Flaws are correctable. Holes can last forever.


I don't think you can claim someone has a "hole" in their game so early in this stage. Barnes has flaws right now. If those same flaws exist in 5 years then they can be considered holes.

And here's the thing, it's not like he hasn't done it before, he played inside out in HS and dominated his competition. In college he hasn't shown it off but it's coming along slowly. There's no doubt he'll need time but there's nothing in his game that looks like a fatal flaw right now.

Put it this way, I can find major flaws in every player in this draft so it's not like he's being hyped up without reason.


Yet, people said the same thing to Bargnani. Bargnani is a bad defender? Synergy Sport ranks him average in man defense. And yet, Barnes might be a good defender, but he has yet to go against NBA player, nor show excellent help defense.

Both Barnes and Perry Jones are Bargnani 2.0. I don't mind Bargnani, but can some of those people accept their problems? Perry Jones being soft on the perimeter and not good at rebounding (6' 11", freaking 7 footer). And Barnes staying on the perimeter and take jump shots (not gonna drive?).

I am happy with either one if we are picking between 5th - 10th. Walker would address our needs, but he is too high at 6th. Kanter and T. Jones are more likely, but will have much less effect on our team.


I don't see the comparison between Bargs and Barnes because Barnes can defend his own position and he is an above average rebounder. At worst, Barnes becomes a rebounder/defender that can step out and hit a 3.

Now P jones and Bargs can be compared because we're not sure if Perry can defend NBA SFs. If he can't, then he'll have to play PF. If he can't defend that either then just like Bargs he won't have a true position. The only good thing is that at SF we can try and cover for him if he's an offensive dynamo and makes it worth our while.
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 3 

Post#1009 » by fredericklove » Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:25 pm

Holy fack I missed the UNC game!! It was a great game too jesus!
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 3 

Post#1010 » by Indeed » Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:28 pm

Dr Mufasa wrote:
Indeed wrote:Yet, people said the same thing to Bargnani. Bargnani is a bad defender? Synergy Sport ranks him average in man defense. And yet, Barnes might be a good defender, but he has yet to go against NBA player, nor show excellent help defense.

Both Barnes and Perry Jones are Bargnani 2.0. I don't mind Bargnani, but can some of those people accept their problems? Perry Jones being soft on the perimeter and not good at rebounding (6' 11", freaking 7 footer). And Barnes staying on the perimeter and take jump shots (not gonna drive?).


Disagree. Perry's problem is being soft and a confidence enigma. Barnes' problem is not being as talented as people thought. His game is shooting 3s and running the floor, and he's not even that good a shooter. Barnes isn't driving cause his handle sucks.

I agree with the Perry Bargnani comparison. But Perry is more talented than Bargnani. Bargs' rebounding and defensive IQ sucks, but he also has lift issues. Perry's athleticism and length under most circumstances would give him great d and rebounding potential. Will he realize it, I dunno, but he's more talented than Bargnani. Who mind you is a 22ppg player


Bargnani's IQ is alright, he just doesn't do it (confidence and sense of urgent, I suppose).

And it depends on how you rate talent. If you rate quickness ahead of size (which is the current NBA settings), sure, Bargnani is gonna lose out, since Perry can guard SF. However, you can't dismiss Bargnani can draw opponent PF/C out, and compliment others better than Perry.

Anyway, the key thing is, do you have the trust on drafting Bargnani 2.0? Or someone worst?
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 3 

Post#1011 » by 5DOM » Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:30 pm

Bargnani's defensive IQ is definitely not alright. He's just bad.
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 3 

Post#1012 » by fredericklove » Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:31 pm

Reignman wrote:
Rhettmatic wrote:
Reignman wrote:His shooting is getting better as the season progresses and looking at his form it's not inconceivable that he can actually be a very good shooter in the L. 4/10 today from 3, 40% is pretty good.


Are you interested in Barnes strictly as a guy who can hit the 3 ball and defend? Or are you projecting him as a guy who does way more than that?

I guess I'm asking -- what's an NBA comparison that you think will apply for Barnes?



Edit: As a projection if things go the way I hope they do, I'm hoping he can develop into a Melo-like player. He might never have Melo's offense but he'll be a better defender/rebounder.


I say his game can develop into Paul Pierce type (the 19 pts plus type, not the 25 pts type): all around game, shooting ability, pump fake, jab step, triple threat position, underrated defense and etc.
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 3 

Post#1013 » by Kaizen » Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:31 pm

Kentucky is playing on Peachtree TV right now.
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 3 

Post#1014 » by Reignman » Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:33 pm

fredericklove wrote:
Reignman wrote:
Rhettmatic wrote:Are you interested in Barnes strictly as a guy who can hit the 3 ball and defend? Or are you projecting him as a guy who does way more than that?

I guess I'm asking -- what's an NBA comparison that you think will apply for Barnes?



Edit: As a projection if things go the way I hope they do, I'm hoping he can develop into a Melo-like player. He might never have Melo's offense but he'll be a better defender/rebounder.


I say his game can develop into Paul Pierce type (the 19 pts plus type, not the 25 pts type): all around game, shooting ability, pump fake, jab step, triple threat position, underrated defense and etc.


yeah, that's probably a better comparison, I just used Melo because Barnes also has a pretty refined post game.
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 3 

Post#1015 » by 5DOM » Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:34 pm

Barnes' is going to be a better rebounder than Carmelo at worst?
Do you realize how many rebounds Carmelo grabs? His RPG in college was at least twice Barnes' IIRC

And I see more of Paul Pierce in Derrick Williams than Barnes

edit: just lower than twice Barnes' actually
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 3 

Post#1016 » by Dr Positivity » Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:36 pm

Kevin Willis wrote:People forget Derozan had a good second half of his freshman season and was steadily improving. He was realizing his potential in college so it wasn't as big a reach as suggested. He fell because he didn't dominate but he was definitely getting better. Perry didn't have that kind of freshman year and will no longer play too.


It's a different situation cause Derozan was the man at USC and Perry was arguably underutilized in Baylor. And Perry hasn't been awful. He had a 14/7 on 55% shooting year. There's been worse freshman seasons. Not everyone puts up Durant and Beasley numbers, especially bigs. Aldridge put up 10 and 6, Bosh put up 15 and 9, Griffin put up 15 and 8. Perry has softness issues, but there's no denying his talent and upside compared to a Kemba or Barnes. This team NEEDS upside.
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 3 

Post#1017 » by raptor jesus » Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:36 pm

Thank goodness for Peachtree.
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 3 

Post#1018 » by Reignman » Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:37 pm

5DOM wrote:Barnes' is going to be a better rebounder than Carmelo at worst?Do you realize how many rebounds Carmelo grabs? His RPG in college was at least twice Barnes' IIRC


Who said that? I just said I hope he can be a Melo-like player with less offense and more defense/rebounding. Basically, he probably won't have Melo's offensive arsenal but he'll be more focused on the other end of the floor.
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 3 

Post#1019 » by 5DOM » Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:42 pm

Reignman wrote:
5DOM wrote:Barnes' is going to be a better rebounder than Carmelo at worst?Do you realize how many rebounds Carmelo grabs? His RPG in college was at least twice Barnes' IIRC


Who said that? I just said I hope he can be a Melo-like player with less offense and more defense/rebounding. Basically, he probably won't have Melo's offensive arsenal but he'll be more focused on the other end of the floor.


Oops. I read the part where you said he's going to be a defender/rebounder at worst and the part where you compared his game to Melo right after, and went crazy.

But really, I don't think comparisons to (or targets of) Melo are very good at all for Barnes. His strengths really don't resemble Melo's. Melo was already a gifted offensive player in his freshman year. Him developing Melo-like offensive game is more like a wish than a hope IMO. It's almost like hoping Valanciunas would be a Dwight Howard level defender.

And I'm not sure if he has a refined post game either. He certainly hasn't shown it in college
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 3 

Post#1020 » by FluLikeSymptoms » Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:44 pm

Barnes is looking like a weak-side player, I don't think he'll go in the top half of the lotto. No reason to take him over the bigs right now.

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