Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 4

[toka]

First of all, who the hell is Brandon Wright. I think you're talking about Brandon Knight.

Second, he's not a game changer. He's got excellent size for the PG spot but he's not a great shooter and he doesn't have the elite athleticism of a Derrick Rose or John Wall. Nor is he a great passer with excellent vision like a Kendall Marshall out of Carolina.

Brandon Knight reminds me of OJ Mayo who was hyped like crazy early in his prep career but ultimately got overtaken by better prospects who bloomed later. When Mayo was a 6'4 freshman point guard everybody was talking about him possibly being better than LeBron in a slightly smaller, more athletic guard body (the next Magic Johnson). But then he stopped growing and never developed his supposed great passing instincts and became more of a scorer. By senior year guards like Rose & Gordon had overtaken him in the eyes of most evaluators.

Brandon Knight was consensus #1 in his class for the longest time because he had such a mature PG body and he could handle the ball, score, pass at such a young age. But his development stalled and by the time senior year came around guys like Irving and Selby surpassed him in the rankings. In reality though none of Knight's skills are elite at the NBA level.

That's not to say Brandon won't develop into a good NBA player. However at this point his biggest asset is his size for position. Otherwise he's above average (not elite) in a lot of categories. Just don't expect Derrick Rose type of athleticism.

For that matter I'm not all that sold on Harrison Barnes. He seems like a slower, stronger Luol Deng to me, without the excellent mid-range shot. Above average athleticism (if that_, might even be a bit slow for the SF spot. The thing he has going for him are his intangibles (coachability, attitude, work ethic, etc). I think he could turn out like Shane Battier, or maybe a Deng type but with more of a defensive presence.

If we're going for excitement & a PG. I hope we look at Kemba Walker. Obviously I hope we pick higher. If we end up in the 7-10 range though, Kemba is everything you want except for size. If he was 6'4 with long arms we'd be talking comparisons to Dwayne Wade. Unfortunately he's only 6'0 (if that) but hey, if it works for Chris Paul why not for Kemba Walker. The guy is lightning quick and very strong for his size. He has great body control and over the summer developed a reliable shot which he can stop on a dime for. He knows how to penetrate and is a leader on the floor. On top of all that, he always competes and has improved throughout his career. Kemba was a back up to the likes of Edgar Sosa (Louisville) and Tu Holloway (Xavier) in his prep career and didn't start on his HS or AAU teams until he was in his Jr. year. He was a top 40 prospects in his Jr. year and a top 15 player by the time he finished HS. He wasn't even UConn first choice for PG that year. Brandon Jennings was supposed to be a lock for UConn and when he decided not to commit to UConn that's when UConn offered Kemba. Now he's probably the best player in his class and continues to improve.

[ImOnFire15]

I want Irving or Barnes. Derrick Williams has looked good though.

[toka]

rofl i DVR'd the game and rewatched that 5 second call it was CLEARLY 4 seconds....

if you are going to call a timeout after 4 seconds, you have to tell the refs in advance. Otherwise, you have to inbound the ball.

The play has been broken down 100 times already by every tv crew and they've all said the exact same thing.

It's been broken down 100 times already by people who don't know the rule and yet so confidently regurgitate one person's mistake.

Seth Davis' Twitter:

"# My earlier tweet was incorrect. A player can call a time out up until the ref counts to five. Rule changed several years ago. Apologies. about 6 hours ago via Twitter for iPhone

# I didn't realize before tonight you cannot call a time out on an inbounds play after the ref gets to four. So ref was correct on 5 sec call. about 6 hours ago via TweetDeck "

All this nonsense was started by Seth Davis.

[ImOnFire15]

Did you guys see that Rodriguez guy from VCU? Do was dropping dimes all over that place.

[Steely Reserve]

First of all, who the hell is Brandon Wright. I think you're talking about Brandon Knight.

Second, he's not a game changer. He's got excellent size for the PG spot but he's not a great shooter and he doesn't have the elite athleticism of a Derrick Rose or John Wall. Nor is he a great passer with excellent vision like a Kendall Marshall out of Carolina.

Brandon Knight reminds me of OJ Mayo who was hyped like crazy early in his prep career but ultimately got overtaken by better prospects who bloomed later. When Mayo was a 6'4 freshman point guard everybody was talking about him possibly being better than LeBron in a slightly smaller, more athletic guard body (the next Magic Johnson). But then he stopped growing and never developed his supposed great passing instincts and became more of a scorer. By senior year guards like Rose & Gordon had overtaken him in the eyes of most evaluators.

Brandon Knight was consensus #1 in his class for the longest time because he had such a mature PG body and he could handle the ball, score, pass at such a young age. But his development stalled and by the time senior year came around guys like Irving and Selby surpassed him in the rankings. In reality though none of Knight's skills are elite at the NBA level.

That's not to say Brandon won't develop into a good NBA player. However at this point his biggest asset is his size for position. Otherwise he's above average (not elite) in a lot of categories. Just don't expect Derrick Rose type of athleticism.

For that matter I'm not all that sold on Harrison Barnes. He seems like a slower, stronger Luol Deng to me, without the excellent mid-range shot. Above average athleticism (if that_, might even be a bit slow for the SF spot. The thing he has going for him are his intangibles (coachability, attitude, work ethic, etc). I think he could turn out like Shane Battier, or maybe a Deng type but with more of a defensive presence.

If we're going for excitement & a PG. I hope we look at Kemba Walker. Obviously I hope we pick higher. If we end up in the 7-10 range though, Kemba is everything you want except for size. If he was 6'4 with long arms we'd be talking comparisons to Dwayne Wade. Unfortunately he's only 6'0 (if that) but hey, if it works for Chris Paul why not for Kemba Walker. The guy is lightning quick and very strong for his size. He has great body control and over the summer developed a reliable shot which he can stop on a dime for. He knows how to penetrate and is a leader on the floor. On top of all that, he always competes and has improved throughout his career. Kemba was a back up to the likes of Edgar Sosa (Louisville) and Tu Holloway (Xavier) in his prep career and didn't start on his HS or AAU teams until he was in his Jr. year. He was a top 40 prospects in his Jr. year and a top 15 player by the time he finished HS. He wasn't even UConn first choice for PG that year. Brandon Jennings was supposed to be a lock for UConn and when he decided not to commit to UConn that's when UConn offered Kemba. Now he's probably the best player in his class and continues to improve.

You are absolutely wrong on Brandon Knight. Anyone looking for analysis on him do not read the post above.

And I give props to those of you who are starting to wade through the needless hyping of Kyrie Irving while beginning to see there are other worthy prospects at the point guard position. By draft day, Knight will be a lock for the top 10 and possibly top 5 depending how his combine numbers rate out.

But as of today, we know he has height + explosiveness + length advantage over Irving. Leadership ability should also be in his favor, but due to the massive hype campaign being paraded by multiple team fanbases, you're better off not bringing that up. Those people don't care Brandon has risen to the position of unquestioned leader of a team with a 6-man rotation that includes no senior and one junior.

When it comes to the Irving hype train, facts just get in the way.

[CunningLinguist]

Memo: if you didn't realize, Irving is a scoring point guard first. His playmaking skills are vastly overrated.

I continue to be dumbfounded at the undieing hype this guy receives. His team is very good and I just don't see the natural skills being #1 pick worthy.

LOL the league is all about scoring PG's dude!! hahaha!

Rose
Paul
Westbrook
Williams
Wall
Curry
Parker

All look to score.

If you watch how the NBA is played now its all about hand checking rules which makes quick guards all the more dangerous. The game is catered to quick guards now which is why you're seeing PG's scoring more.

This is something I've said throughout this thread. I'm surprised more people don't get this. We already have a pass first point guard in Jose if that's what people want anyway. There hasn't been a pass first point guard who led his team to a championship in over 20 years and you could argue that Isiah Thomas was a scorer first and playmaker second.

[CunningLinguist]

I'm telling y'all, Morris is damn good.

Agreed he reminds me of a tougher Danny Granger...He even looks sorta like Danny

Danny Granger? Morris is a point guard.

[Ong_dynasty]

Memo: if you didn't realize, Irving is a scoring point guard first. His playmaking skills are vastly overrated.

I continue to be dumbfounded at the undieing hype this guy receives. His team is very good and I just don't see the natural skills being #1 pick worthy.

LOL the league is all about scoring PG's dude!! hahaha!

Rose
Paul
Westbrook
Williams
Wall
Curry
Parker

All look to score.

If you watch how the NBA is played now its all about hand checking rules which makes quick guards all the more dangerous. The game is catered to quick guards now which is why you're seeing PG's scoring more.

This is something I've said throughout this thread. I'm surprised more people don't get this. We already have a pass first point guard in Jose if that's what people want anyway. There hasn't been a pass first point guard who lead his team team to a championship in over 20 years and you could argue that Isiah Thomas was a scorer first and playmaker second.

and how many score first point guards has led a team to a championship?
bottom line is, as important a point guard rarely have they led teams to the championships.

Are people having a hard time differentiating from a scoring pg and a pg that can score?
because this is the first time I heard Deron Williams and Chris paul being scoring pg's.

[crosswalkryan]

and how many score first point guards has led a team to a championship?
bottom line is, as important a point guard rarely have they led teams to the championships.

Are people having a hard time differentiating from a scoring pg and a pg that can score?
because this is the first time I heard Deron Williams and Chris paul being scoring pg's.

Just quoting this for, y'know, TRUTH.

Last 20 NBA champions = Chicago x 6, Lakers x 5, Spurs x 4, Houston x 2, Celtics x 1, Detroit x 1, Miami x 1

None of those have a PG as their main player. Comes down to a dominant scorer, or combo of dominant scorer + dominant big man. Oh, and all of those teams had great defense.

[Kevin Willis]

Memo: if you didn't realize, Irving is a scoring point guard first. His playmaking skills are vastly overrated.

I continue to be dumbfounded at the undieing hype this guy receives. His team is very good and I just don't see the natural skills being #1 pick worthy.

LOL the league is all about scoring PG's dude!! hahaha!

Rose
Paul
Westbrook
Williams
Wall
Curry
Parker

All look to score.

If you watch how the NBA is played now its all about hand checking rules which makes quick guards all the more dangerous. The game is catered to quick guards now which is why you're seeing PG's scoring more.

This is something I've said throughout this thread. I'm surprised more people don't get this. We already have a pass first point guard in Jose if that's what people want anyway. There hasn't been a pass first point guard who lead his team team to a championship in over 20 years and you could argue that Isiah Thomas was a scorer first and playmaker second.

Fisher - Rondo - Kenny Smith.

[McFurious1]

Derrick Williams needs to be on the Raptors.

[Kaizen]

I guess that 4-14 shooting display was very impressive to you.

[crosswalkryan]

Fisher - Rondo - Kenny Smith.

Is that a joke?
More like Kobe, Garnett, Hakeem

[Local_NG_Idiot]

and how many score first point guards has led a team to a championship?
bottom line is, as important a point guard rarely have they led teams to the championships.

Are people having a hard time differentiating from a scoring pg and a pg that can score?
because this is the first time I heard Deron Williams and Chris paul being scoring pg's.

There are more types of PGs than just "Score First" and "Pass First".

There are those that are considered what is called a "True Facilitator" which means that they can score at will, but use it as a weapon to draw defenses and get easy buckets for teammates. These are the PGs who can break down defenses, get into the paint, draw double and sometimes triple teams once they get into the lane and then instead of taking that contested shot, they find their teammates for wide open looks.

Rose, Dwill, CP3, Nash all look to score but that doesn't make them score first. They look to score in order to generate those easy buckets for their teammates.

Guys like Mo Williams are score first PGs.

So what you have to assess about Irving, Walker, Knight etc... is whether or not their game will translate to the NBA level as a pure facilitator or whether they will end up being a straight scorer who lacks court vision.

[dagger]

Is Derek Fisher a pass first or scoring point guard? Or maybe he's a pylon who hits the occasional 3 and defends. In any case, he's won more rings than all the great scoring point guards in this league combined.

Is Rajon Rondo a pass first or scoring point guard? I'd say his facilitator skills are better than his scoring, and his scoring is only possible because so much attention is drawn by his teammates. But he has won a ring.

Tony Parker is a scoring point guard, but he tends to be more complementary in that role to Duncan and Manu. He has rings.

Rose may become the most offensive oriented PG to get a ring if/when CHI goes all the way, but he would be the exception, and he's a real MVP candidate, not just an all-star.

So I think the question can't be answered. It depends on who you have on your team. If you have Kobe and that Laker frontcourt, LA could probably win with Steve Blake running the point.

[Kevin Willis]

Look - everyone will agree this draft has no clear No. 1. It barely has a clear Top 5.

We also know BC is collecting draft picks the unconventional way, getting former high/first round picks that are currently not getting playing time on their current team. If you look a it that way we have a recent high pick at PG - SG - SF - PF (C if you count Ajinca). Now that BP is not clear then you're looking at best fit. Where is our young prospects the weakest?

PG - Bayless
SG - Derozan/Weems
SF - James Johnson
PF - Amir/Ed Davis

That suggest C -> SF -> PG because Bayless is most-likely a better prospect than Johnson. Plus we will most likely finish between 5 -7 not No. 1 (though anything can happen, anyone can win.) That leaves Kanter/Donatas/Jonas -> Barnes/Vesely/(T & P Jones) -> Irving/Knight/Burks (if you think he can be a big PG like Billups)/Walker. We will draft someone from this group. No Sullinger. No D. Williams. Would be a bad fit for us and they're not so dominant that a player of equal skill at a needed position is not present.

To me it comes down to long term direction of the Raptors and the comfort level. Each position has a range of very risky to more safe targets. I don't see that huge a difference between the SFs for example. They all have weaknesses. Also note, it's unlikely Barnes will be around when we draft. Now it's Vesely and the two Jones. Who would fit in best with our core? That's management's decision. Same for PGs - Irving will most likely be gone. Now of the rest who do you choose? Another AI type in Walker? A leader - penetrator like Knight? A tall combo that shoot like Barbosa without his speed. Not really that clear. C same deal - a banger or varying degrees of projects?

In the end it will come down to workouts, risk and body of work. That's why players with questionable bodies of work slide (ie. Ed Davis due to his injury, and Derozan). Looking at that and our history of draft picking I'm sure people can narrow it down to a smaller list. But I'm not going to do that work.

[Kevin Willis]

Fisher - Rondo - Kenny Smith.

Is that a joke?
More like Kobe, Garnett, Hakeem

You're proving my point. They were past first PGs who didn't really score. They differed to Kobe/Garnett/Hakeem.

[CunningLinguist]

Is Derek Fisher a pass first or scoring point guard? Or maybe he's a pylon who hits the occasional 3 and defends. In any case, he's won more rings than all the great scoring point guards in this league combined.

Is Rajon Rondo a pass first or scoring point guard? I'd say his facilitator skills are better than his scoring, and his scoring is only possible because so much attention is drawn by his teammates. But he has won a ring.

Tony Parker is a scoring point guard, but he tends to be more complementary in that role to Duncan and Manu. He has rings.

Rose may become the most offensive oriented PG to get a ring if/when CHI goes all the way, but he would be the exception, and he's a real MVP candidate, not just an all-star.

So I think the question can't be answered. It depends on who you have on your team. If you have Kobe and that Laker frontcourt, LA could probably win with Steve Blake running the point.

The point I was trying to make is that you need a perimiter player (whether it be PG/SG/SF) who can break down the defense and pass off of that penetration. If you have a SG that can do that, then you don't necessarily need it from your PG (Examples: Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, Dwayne Wade).

The way the NBA game is called today, I would rather have a great penetrating PG who has reasonably good passing skills over a great passer who has difficulty penetrating. The reason is that you can't defend them with the current rules and they attract help defenders which gives your teammates better scoring opportunities.

[McFurious1]

I guess that 4-14 shooting display was very impressive to you.

Are you going to try to sit there and tell me Derrick Williams isn't good?

[team edward]

Fisher - Rondo - Kenny Smith.

Is that a joke?
More like Kobe, Garnett, Hakeem

You're proving my point. They were past first PGs who didn't really score. They differed to Kobe/Garnett/Hakeem.

Are Kobe, Garnett and Hakeem available in this draft? No? Shoot, now what?