If we woulda let Joe walk!!!

[Geaux_Hawks]

On a team that doesn't share the ball with him very often, Horford has a PER of 21.73 (18th best in the NBA among ALL players).
On a team that doesn't share the ball with him very often, Horford is the most accurate midrange shooter in the NBA (57%).
On a team that doesn't share the ball with him very often, Horford averages 15.7 pts/gm.

If I keep on, I'll start getting into opinions, but those facts are unavoidable. Horford is the best PF on our team and our best player.

I love Smoove's drive and ambition but he kills me with his lack of intensity. He only brings it when he wants to. And this is NOT the "first year Josh has taken so many jump shots." Sorry to disagree but he and Woodson butted heads for years. Notice you agree he "chooses to do whatever he feels" but you blame it on the coach.

Notice, also, that you don't disagree with my claim that he DOES NOT create his own shots. And that really bothers me about him: he could be Domminique-like if he would _drive_to_the_basket (grrr).

PER should never be taken into account even though he does have a 21.73 PER(Josh 19.00), but for a guy who supposedly doesn't get the ball enough from his teammates, he some how gets about 12.1 attempts a game(Josh 13.5), which would allow him to score about 15.7 PPG if he hits about 6.8 of them (Josh 16.4 PPG making 6.4 of his attempts), oh and he passes up alot of attempts as well.

Yes, I agreed he does what he wants, and like I say when Woodson was here, regardless if they butted heads, Josh didn't live at the 3 point line, so yeah I think anyone can see with Drew's laidback style of coaching, he doesn't have any control over his players(I.E Josh shoots more frequent 3's/deep 2's).

If Horford created on his own, I would at least say they are on the same level with the nod going more to Horford(Defense hinders Horford even more).Would you like to go to the defensive side of the ball or would you like more offense to talk about??

[azuresou1]

I'd be glad to talk about defense.

Al always tries on defense, Josh doesn't.
Al can defend legitimate Cs, Josh can't.
Al actually gets back on transition defense, Josh won't even be on that half of the court.

[Geaux_Hawks]

I'd be glad to talk about defense.

Al always tries on defense, Josh doesn't.
Al can defend legitimate Cs, Josh can't.
Al actually gets back on transition defense, Josh won't even be on that half of the court.

LMAO neither can guard legitimate Centers, but Josh is more reluctant to get a block instead of Al.
Yeah, Al will hustle on pretty much every play, but Josh do hustle back on transition most of the time as well.Josh defensive numbers have started to go down because of his KNEE injury and he now doesn't get credited with trying on defense. wow. I don't see Al gambling on steals or hopping off the vert to block shots on help D.He might get the obvious blocks that don't require hops though. If Josh ever gets traded instead of Horford, I would be so happy just to see how amazing Horford will be.No, I'm ranting on the fact that most think Horford is the better player either. I love Horford as a player

[azuresou1]

Horford IS the better player because he has significantly higher BBIQ and doesn't attempt things outside his skillset, like trying to run the point like Magic Johnson or trying crossover pullup midrange jumpers.

Sorry, basketball IQ makes for better players, which is why guys like Tyrus Thomas, Gerald Green, and Stromile Swift are scrubs/out of the league, while guys like Kurt Thomas, Shane Battier, and Theo Ratliff have stayed in the league forever.

[parson]

LMAO neither can guard legitimate Centers,

By "legitimate" Centers, I assume you mean Dwight Howard and Andrew Bynum, because Horford defends the rest well. League average against him is average if you exclude those 2 (who can go right over him).

... but Josh do hustle back on transition most of the time as well.Josh defensive numbers have started to go down because of his KNEE injury and he now doesn't get credited with trying on defense. wow.

We all have selective memories - we remember the things that agree with us and we forget what disproves us. I remember Kevin Willis hitting Smoove on the head when he was a rookie to get him back into the game, mentally. That was years before his knee problems. Then, I was waiting for Smoove to grow up and care enough. Now, I just want him to care all the time.

[Geaux_Hawks]

I'd be glad to talk about defense.

Al always tries on defense, Josh doesn't.
Al can defend legitimate Cs, Josh can't.
Al actually gets back on transition defense, Josh won't even be on that half of the court.

I never used the term "legitimate center", and since you break it down to specific players, how about add Brook Lopez, Roy Hibbert, Okafor and Nene bullied him, even one trick pony Bargnani has big games against him. Horford is a great team defender, but individually is above average.

LMAO neither can guard legitimate Centers,

By "legitimate" Centers, I assume you mean Dwight Howard and Andrew Bynum, because Horford defends the rest well. League average against him is average if you exclude those 2 (who can go right over him).

... but Josh do hustle back on transition most of the time as well.Josh defensive numbers have started to go down because of his KNEE injury and he now doesn't get credited with trying on defense. wow.

We all have selective memories - we remember the things that agree with us and we forget what disproves us. I remember Kevin Willis hitting Smoove on the head when he was a rookie to get him back into the game, mentally. That was years before his knee problems. Then, I was waiting for Smoove to grow up and care enough. Now, I just want him to care all the time.

Who since Kevin Willis have been on Josh like that?? Josh came into the league straight out of high school and had no veteran leadership or responsibilities to lead a team like college players. He is still young at 25, but now he has a veteran presence in the locker(Hinrich).Give him an off-season with Hinrich in practice, and a veteran HC.

[parson]

1) Thanks for conceding that Smoove has always had an attention problem.

2) He's 25 years old and a 6-year veteran. Is your argument - really - that he needs a nursemaid? When you get your brain around that, you'll begin to understand why I prefer Horford.

I like Smoove. I'd like to KEEP Smoove. But if we're going to get a Center, it needs to be him going out. Listen, as much as I'm a fan of Marvelous, if we could trade HIM for a real Center and move Smoove to SF, I'd be all over it like white on rice. But seriously, who do we have to trade in order to get a big and how can we justify trading Horford while keeping Smoove?

You win championships with Horfords.
You beat your head against the wall with Smooves.

[Geaux_Hawks]

1) Thanks for conceding that Smoove has always had an attention problem.

2) He's 25 years old and a 6-year veteran. Is your argument - really - that he needs a nursemaid? When you get your brain around that, you'll begin to understand why I prefer Horford.

I like Smoove. I'd like to KEEP Smoove. But if we're going to get a Center, it needs to be him going out. Listen, as much as I'm a fan of Marvelous, if we could trade HIM for a real Center and move Smoove to SF, I'd be all over it like white on rice. But seriously, who do we have to trade in order to get a big and how can we justify trading Horford while keeping Smoove?

You win championships with Horfords.
You beat your head against the wall with Smooves.

How do you assume we win championships with a guy who is supposedly 20/10 guy but hasn't came close to that average once in his 4 year career? Do you think Horford is better than Aldridge??

[Macho Man]

We as Hawks fans are in Purgatory!!!!

Couldn't be a more accurate statement. We're stuck here until Joe's contract is up and everyone is gone.

[Macho Man]

I don't know why you people want to get rid of Joe and Smith while keeping Horford. Horford can't create for his self nor does he command a double team. His defense isn't top notch either. he is just consistent. Now I don't won't to get rid of Horford, I like his game. But he is not untouchable. Ideally I would love to keep both and have one come off the bench like Lamar Odom does in LA. But I don't think either one of their ego would let them do it.

Neither guy should go. Both should stay and with a legit starting center. Josh can play SF or come off the bench like LO does in LA, like you said. Al would be a hell of a PF but they don't play him there and it's **** cause we're wasting time watching Joe be overrated and dominate the ball.

[HMFFL]

I don't know why you people want to get rid of Joe and Smith while keeping Horford. Horford can't create for his self nor does he command a double team. His defense isn't top notch either. he is just consistent. Now I don't won't to get rid of Horford, I like his game. But he is not untouchable. Ideally I would love to keep both and have one come off the bench like Lamar Odom does in LA. But I don't think either one of their ego would let them do it.

Neither guy should go. Both should stay and with a legit starting center. Josh can play SF or come off the bench like LO does in LA, like you said. Al would be a hell of a PF but they don't play him there and it's **** cause we're wasting time watching Joe be overrated and dominate the ball.

You actually think Josh Smith is mature enough to accept that type of role?

[Geaux_Hawks]

I don't think maturity is a factor if you get a veteran coach who knows what they are doing and will give Josh minutes similar to Odom, which would be about 2 less minutes than what he gets starting ,but doing it as an off the bench guy.

[azuresou1]

Josh can't even reign in his jumpshots and consistently give enough of a **** in games, and you expect him to handle a 'demotion' to the bench with poise?

[Macho Man]

I don't know why you people want to get rid of Joe and Smith while keeping Horford. Horford can't create for his self nor does he command a double team. His defense isn't top notch either. he is just consistent. Now I don't won't to get rid of Horford, I like his game. But he is not untouchable. Ideally I would love to keep both and have one come off the bench like Lamar Odom does in LA. But I don't think either one of their ego would let them do it.

Neither guy should go. Both should stay and with a legit starting center. Josh can play SF or come off the bench like LO does in LA, like you said. Al would be a hell of a PF but they don't play him there and it's **** cause we're wasting time watching Joe be overrated and dominate the ball.

You actually think Josh Smith is mature enough to accept that type of role?

I think he'll be mature enough by next season - if you don't make it sound like a demotion that is. LO doesn't play like hes been demoted, he plays like he's there to win. Same with JET (terry). He will get a good chunk of minutes, but he's better suited in spurts where the defense is tired. I hope josh can accept it, and be a team player, otherwise, Fugg 'em.

[HMFFL]

Josh can't even reign in his jumpshots and consistently give enough of a **** in games, and you expect him to handle a 'demotion' to the bench with poise?

Exactly.

I realize Josh is popular among Atlanta fans, but some fans are in denial.

[Ruhiel]

Josh can't even reign in his jumpshots and consistently give enough of a **** in games, and you expect him to handle a 'demotion' to the bench with poise?

Exactly.

I realize Josh is popular among Atlanta fans, but some fans are in denial.

it's obvious who management wants to build around when you look at Joe's contract Atlanta should trade him,

[Geaux_Hawks]

Josh can't even reign in his jumpshots and consistently give enough of a **** in games, and you expect him to handle a 'demotion' to the bench with poise?

Exactly.

I realize Josh is popular among Atlanta fans, but some fans are in denial.

I don't think I'm in denial, but why trade Josh for a 37 year old Nash or an unhealthy Bynum just to gamble that they will take us to the Finals or ECF at that. Players we would love to have like Nene or Bogut at Center would have to come at the cost of Horford since Denver and Milwaukee already have an athletic PF(Sanders aka future Josh Smith type player) or some one cheaper and cause an excess at PF(Gallo). So even if you feel as though Horford is so untouchable outside of a pipe dream in Dwight Howard, then we should trade Josh to some team that could still land us scorer at least like Steph Curry, Monta Ellis(who can play point as we don't need a traditional PG in Drew's System), or Kevin Martin(redundant though).

Someone on the Trades& Transaction board suggested Monta to ATL, Smith to IND, Granger to GS. Makes sense to me if we could get Wright in the deal and do some more off-season moves to trade Marvin to the Clips while MEM gets a first and some exp and gives us Mayo(who also fits that non traditional PG potential).See if we can pick up Oden to off set Smiths Defense and I would more than accept something like that if we traded Smith.