Believe it or not, we have to build around Joe.

parson · Post #1 » by **parson** » Wed Mar 23, 2011 5:02 pm

I know, Joe's been disappointing. However, we have no choice but to use Joe as our franchise player.. We have to build around Joe ... and Horford, of course ... and everyone else who cannot fit the new offense we'll have to run has to go.

Right now, we run a motion offense (same with Woodson), which allows the defense to dictate the shooter, unless we go iso. Our management has chosen to use our assets in this way for 7 years. In essense, I'm accusing management of mismanaging our players. We built our team around a jump shooter but chose a motion offense that doesn't get him open.

Instead, we need to run screens for Joe, we have to run plays for him.

Just one example: think about how good it would look if we had Horford setting picks for Joe: either the defense gives Joe the open shot or they switch to Joe and give Horford the open mid-range shot.

Post #2 » by **Jamaaliver** » Wed Mar 23, 2011 10:46 pm

I agree with pretty much everything you just said.

JJ and Horford our are building blocks.

Running a motion offense that creates balance in scoring pretty much negates the need to have a single primary scorer. (Which makes signing Joe to a max contract even more asinine.)

A pick and roll offense with JJ and Horford (and even Jamal and Smoove) seems like a pretty potent combination.

JJ is our all-star and our highest paid player and really our only consistent offensive player (Jamal is incredibly streaky). We should be running plays for him on a more consistent basis. Even if he's not hitting, JJ is a scorer and can get hot at any time.

Geaux_Hawks · Post #3 » by **Geaux_Hawks** » Thu Mar 24, 2011 2:40 am

It's not the players that need to go, but it's the coach himself who needs to go. Yes. JJ needs to be the actual "focus" as the guy who touches the ball the most and plays be ran for him to execute in a "Motion" style offense. Iso can still be effective, but the offense needs to be more pick&roll/pick&pop plays.Al for the pop, Smith for the roll.Joe should mostly run these plays since he is our most consistent offense, but Hinrich is capable as well. Bring Crawford in the game to only do what RIP Hamilton&Ray Allen do(Run around the court off screens until you get an open shot).I like using him as a last 30 seconds clutch play-maker as well. Teague should come in and relieve Hinrich instead of Crawford, and be the change of pace/transition PG with Marvin and Josh.

If Drew had any sense, he would realize he has exhausted Joe with all the minutes and ISO(almost like a RB who gets 400 carries a year) and not playing Teague wares on Hinrich as well through out games, and at least use your bench guys like Armstrong and Wilkins more. Find a solid rotation which I think should be: Joe,Hinrich,Teague,Josh,Al,Crawford,Damien, Armstrong,Zaza,Marvin.

parson · Post #4 » by **parson** » Thu Mar 24, 2011 2:55 am

Geaux_Hawks wrote:...Run around the court off screens until you get an open shot)...

Over and over and over again. Yes.

You don't employ a Joe Johnson (or Ray Allen or Rip Hamilton or Kevin Martin ...) in a motion offense. You set picks and get them open.

D21 · Post #5 » by **D21** » Thu Mar 24, 2011 10:46 am

Which surprised me that I thought we would run motion offense this year, but only has main offense, and see when it would be work at its best and plays screens when needed.
We were all ISO, and now all Motion. That's just stupid.

I also agree that if we are sure to not be able to trade Joe, better build on him because we have him for lots of years.
I just don't want to build on him only, but also on Horford because he's now our only players being a winner. I don't know if there's a possibility to make Joe a real winner, but maybe if there's a chance, it's by making plays for him and make him feel he has to score but that the team works for this.

And if we can't hire a coach who can't stop Josh to make stupid things, then just trade him, but it's so a stupid move to give lots of money to players like that and just be cheap like that on coach, it just doesn't allow your players to play at their best, so why even paying them like that.

Harry10 · Post #6 » by **Harry10** » Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:19 am

the only way to build around Joe is to get Steve Nash, but that window is only going to be open for 1 or 2 years.

parson · Post #7 » by **parson** » Thu Mar 24, 2011 2:45 pm

D21 wrote:And if we can't hire a coach who can't stop Josh to make stupid things, then just trade him, but it's so a stupid move to give lots of money to players like that and just be cheap like that on coach, it just doesn't allow your players to play at their best, so why even paying them like that.

One thing I fear is that this will always be Mike Woodson's team, and I don't mean that nicely. I'm afraid that Woodson's teachings will never leave them and that what's happening with Smoove is representative of ALL our players. For example, from time to time, I still see them reverting to switching at every opportunity or to moving to the other side of the court, out of Joe or Jamal's way so they can go iso.

We need to change and play a better way but 6 years of Woodson and an additional year of a close copy may be too much for our guys to ever overcome.

Geaux_Hawks · Post #8 » by **Geaux_Hawks** » Thu Mar 24, 2011 4:01 pm

I think the players are more sending the message that they want a better coach and aren't buying into making a rookie coach the guy who will lead them to a championship

Ruhiel · Post #9 » by **Ruhiel** » Thu Mar 24, 2011 8:42 pm

Geaux_Hawks wrote:I think the players are more sending the message that they want a better coach and aren't buying into making a rookie coach the guy who will lead them to a championship

They had Woodson for 6 years. A good coach can only do so much. There are only so many defensive schemes for a small ball team, Horf and Smith will get pounded on the boards tiring them out for offense.
Fool the fans once shame on you.('09 playoffs) Fool the fans twice shame on me.('10 playoffs) Fool the fans three times then the fans are obviously suckers.

JoshB914 · Post #10 » by **JoshB914** » Thu Mar 24, 2011 10:39 pm

If Joe Johnson is our best player, it doesn't matter what we put around him. Every elite team has a guy they can force feed the ball in isolation situations and get production out of. Obviously, Joe doesn't have the ability or desire to be that player. Parson you are 100% right that he would be better used coming off screens but that is not what a no. 1 option is supposed to do. Find me a team that won anything with their best player used principally as a catch-and-shoot guy (04 Pistons are the exception that makes the rule) in the NBA in the last 20 years.

I watched this team grow under Woodson from the 13-win season on. And the entire time it was clear to me that we weren't going to become a great team with Joe leading the way (I made that very clear on here and was the subject of much vigor from others who disagreed). The team and organization tried everything to make him to take on the role we wanted and refused; Woody tried to force him to act like a franchise player by slapping the captain's tag on him, he asked him (publicly and privately) to be more assertive and communicate with his teammates, and we paid him TWO max contracts in the process hoping he would figure it out. Our "franchise" player has always accepted the paychecks (can't blame him for that), but he NEVER did the job asked of him in return for those max contracts.

I grew sick of the team this year and haven't been watching them as closely. It's so obvious what they are and I think, for the first time, the players know what they are, too. The Sixers game reminded me of the 26- and 30-win teams that were so fragile mentally and lost focus. Now we are veteran team losing focus, and that is always going to be a effort problem.

And lol at Woody "instilling" these ideals within the players. At least he had the guys playing hard every night (except for Joe of course who dances to his own tune). If anything, the team has taken on the ideals of Joe (not stepping up in big situations, not responsible or accountable, lacking emotion and desire etc.). At least that's how I see it...

Geaux_Hawks · Post #11 » by **Geaux_Hawks** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 4:03 am

Ruhiel wrote:
Geaux_Hawks wrote:I think the players are more sending the message that they want a better coach and aren't buying into making a rookie coach the guy who will lead them to a championship

They had Woodson for 6 years. A good coach can only do so much. There are only so many defensive schemes for a small ball team, Horf and Smith will get pounded on the boards tiring them out for offense.
Fool the fans once shame on you.('09 playoffs) Fool the fans twice shame on me.('10 playoffs) Fool the fans three times then the fans are obviously suckers.

Yeah we had Woody, but he didn't always make the right coaching decision. Then we get rid of Woody for a "Rookie HC" is like regressing from the HC position.