Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 5

[sunny]

3/4 guys on around the horn just said that Dwill's gotta be the number 1 pick.

Saw that. Now I get why a lot of NBA scouts go to Europe during the NCAA Tournament. A few great tourney games can really cloud your opinion. Williams had a great season and could easily be the #1 pick but we still need to look at the big picture and not make our decision based on a few games in March. Perry Jones screwed up by going to Baylor...at least he got paid.

Why? What matters is not the first contract, but the second contract (Lute Olson quote).
Perry Jones will have ample opportunity to prove himself in the nba. There are many factors for choosing where you matriculate other than where you will be drafted.

The tournament means a lot because it is the biggest stage. It's not like the scouts are seeing these guys for the first time, its seeing how they handle pressure games and elite competition.

[Vorticity]

I think Kemba is quick enough and athletic enough to be credible against NBA PGs. UConn tends to rest him on D because they want him playing 40 Minutes a game.

I'm high on Kemba, and won't be upset if we end up with him around the 5-7 range (if we slip a bit).

My sentiments exactly.

Quite frankly I think Kemba's being unfairly underrated on this board.

[CunningLinguist]

3/4 guys on around the horn just said that Dwill's gotta be the number 1 pick.

I'd be interested to get your take in regard to the points I made on Williams in my previous post.

[CunningLinguist]

This is O/T but considering we're talking about college ball, TSN is airing a documentary on the Fab 5 tonight at 8 if anyone's interested.

[TheRealDeal]

3/4 guys on around the horn just said that Dwill's gotta be the number 1 pick.

Saw that. Now I get why a lot of NBA scouts go to Europe during the NCAA Tournament. A few great tourney games can really cloud your opinion. Williams had a great season and could easily be the #1 pick but we still need to look at the big picture and not make our decision based on a few games in March. Perry Jones screwed up by going to Baylor...at least he got paid.

The tournament means a lot because it is the biggest stage. It's not like the scouts are seeing these guys for the first time, its seeing how they handle pressure games and elite competition.

Very true. I was on this board a few months ago predicting that 1-2 players would go on a tournament run and enter the #1 pick consideration. Barnes and Williams were two of the guys I mentioned. I understand the phenomenon well and saw it coming. These scouts shouldn't ignore what's happened in the past two weeks but shouldn't allow it to totally change their mind. SI wrote an article about it a few day ago.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/ian_thomsen/03/25/sixth.man/

[sunny]

3/4 guys on around the horn just said that Dwill's gotta be the number 1 pick.

I'd be interested to get your take in regard to the points I made on Williams in my previous post.

"I'm just not seeing Williams as a #1 pick in the draft. Personally I don't see him as a top 3 pick. His skillset screams PF, outside of hitting open 3's. He's going to have challenges defending PFs because he's a bit undersized and his ability to defend SFs is unproven, even at the college level. Just because he has vertical explosiveness doesn't mean he has the required lateral quicks. He struggles scoring over bigger players too.

Can he shoot off the dribble? Does he pass well enough to make other players better? Not that I've seen. If not, that is not top-pick worthy in my opinion. I don't question his ability to put up some nice fantasy stats but I question how much of an impact he will have on wins at the next level.

I stand by my comparison to a more athletic Antawn Jamison. I find it interesting that Williams himself is now comparing himself to Jamison and Beasley, so apparently he agrees."

Your points are pretty erratic, but i'll try and post what comes to mind. If you want to ask specific questions, or address specific concerns, I can try and give a more appropriate response.
in college derrick guarded the biggest player on the other teams. He never guarded the opposing teams small forwards (this is just because he was AZ's biggest and best post D player). He is fine defensively, and there is nothing to suggest he will have problems playing D in the nba for either position.
To say he struggles over bigger players I think is a bit of a misnomer. There are no teams that he didn't dominate this year. Go back and watch his game against Kansas against two of the best "bigs" in college. When he is playing a team with two guys who are 6'10 double teaming him and a pg who doesnt like to pass him the ball, its not as easy for him to score but he still does it pretty efficientely.

He hasn't really shown a huge midrange game at this stage. He is a great passer though. I don't see why this makes him not worthy of being a top pick though. A Beasley who plays D and has an actual work ethic isn't that bad of a comparison either.

[CunningLinguist]

The tournament means a lot because it is the biggest stage. It's not like the scouts are seeing these guys for the first time, its seeing how they handle pressure games and elite competition.

Very true. I was on this board a few months ago predicting that 1-2 players would go on a tournament run and enter the #1 pick consideration. Barnes and Williams were two of the guys I mentioned. I understand the phenomenon well and saw it coming. These scouts shouldn't ignore what's happened in the past two weeks but shouldn't allow it to totally change their mind. SI wrote an article about it a few day ago.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/ian_thomsen/03/25/sixth.man/[/quote][/quote]

I think fans put more emphasis on play in the tournament than scouts/GMs, partly because many only start watching college ball at that point in the season.

Mocks from people like Chad Ford also like to show all these changes over the course of the year because that draws interest to the site. I don't think it necessarily reflects what GMs are thinking. I mean, back on January 4th, Ford suggested that the only consensus that he could find on a player was that Brandon Knight was not a lock for the 1st round, which I found preposterous.

[AkelaLoneWolf]

Chisholm sees Kemba Walker as a Raptor if we don't ger Irving. If posted just ignore.
http://www.tsn.ca/blogs/tim_chisholm/?id=359655

A valiant try from Chisholm, but not enough to convince me.
He's talking about penetrating and passing and yet we don't know how good of a passer he is. The assist numbers could just be a function of his high usage rate. His ceiling looks to be yet another 1 dimensional player.
Also, the comparisions he lists aren't exactly impact players either. If he's the best player we can get around 5, then this is a very depressing draft.
At any rate, the only valid point the article makes IMO is that there are a lot of unknowns. We don't know too much about Kanter and the other Euros. We don't know whether Perry Jones can play teh 3. I would say that if he has the lateral quicks for defending his position (or his height and wingspan can disrupt the shot) I don't mind taking a flyer on him.

[TheRealDeal]

This is O/T but considering we're talking about college ball, TSN is airing a documentary on the Fab 5 tonight at 8 if anyone's interested.

It was on ESPN a few weeks ago. It was very well done and got a ton of hype. Jalen Rose makes the film, I strongly recommend watching it.

Speaking of ESPN, they are airing a documentary called "Elite 24" right now about the Boost Mobile Elite 24 event, the nation’s premier elite high school boys’ basketball event for underclassmen. The game is played at Rucker Park in Harlem, NY. Right now they're talking about the history of the event and showing some Jennings to DeRozan highlights. Kevin Love & Jennings were interviewed for the doc. They are featuring Austin Rivers and Myck Kabongo next so tune in if you get ESPN 2. Could be our future PG.

edit: I guess they moved it to Venice Beach, CA this year. & it's on ESPNU not ESPN2.

[sunny]

This is O/T but considering we're talking about college ball, TSN is airing a documentary on the Fab 5 tonight at 8 if anyone's interested.

It was on ESPN a few weeks ago. It was very well done and got a ton of hype. Jalen Rose makes the film, I strongly recommend watching it.

Speaking of ESPN, they are airing a documentary called "Elite 24" right now about the Boost Mobile Elite 24 event, the nation’s premier elite high school boys’ basketball event for underclassmen. The game is played at Rucker Park in Harlem, NY. They moved it to Venice Beach, CA this year. Right now they're talking about the history of the event and showing some Jennings to DeRozan highlights. Kevin Love & Jennings were interviewed for the doc. They are featuring Austin Rivers and Myck Kabongo next so tune in if you get ESPN 2. Could be our future PG.

Nick Johnson is the ****!

[sunny]

Arizona played Kansas, BYU, Washington in the regular season but didn't play THAT many games against elite teams.
In the tournament they played Uconn, Duke, Memphis and Texas. Its not just the fact that "its the tournament". Games between good teams mean a lot more to scouts than playing Arizona State.

[CunningLinguist]

3/4 guys on around the horn just said that Dwill's gotta be the number 1 pick.

I'd be interested to get your take in regard to the points I made on Williams in my previous post.

"I'm just not seeing Williams as a #1 pick in the draft. Personally I don't see him as a top 3 pick. His skillset screams PF, outside of hitting open 3's. He's going to have challenges defending PFs because he's a bit undersized and his ability to defend SFs is unproven, even at the college level. Just because he has vertical explosiveness doesn't mean he has the required lateral quicks. He struggles scoring over bigger players too.

Can he shoot off the dribble? Does he pass well enough to make other players better? Not that I've seen. If not, that is not top-pick worthy in my opinion. I don't question his ability to put up some nice fantasy stats but I question how much of an impact he will have on wins at the next level.

I stand by my comparison to a more athletic Antawn Jamison. I find it interesting that Williams himself is now comparing himself to Jamison and Beasley, so apparently he agrees."

Your points are pretty erratic, but i'll try and post what comes to mind. If you want to ask specific questions, or address specific concerns, I can try and give a more appropriate response.
in college derrick guarded the biggest player on the other teams. He never guarded the opposing teams small forwards (this is just because he was AZ's biggest and best post D player). He is fine defensively, and there is nothing to suggest he will have problems playing D in the nba for either position.
To say he struggles over bigger players I think is a bit of a misnomer. There are no teams that he didn't dominate this year. Go back and watch his game against Kansas against two of the best "bigs" in college. When he is playing a team with two guys who are 6'10 double teaming him and a pg who doesnt like to pass him the ball, its not as easy for him to score but he still does it pretty efficientely.

He hasn't really shown a huge midrange game at this stage. He is a great passer though. I don't see why this makes him not worthy of being a top pick though. A Beasley who plays D and has an actual work ethic isn't that bad of a comparison either.

He may have guarded the opposing team's biggest player, but he's going to be going up against even bigger guys at the next level if he plays PF. I haven't been all that impressed with his D outside of weakside shotblocking.

What about shooting off the dribble? I haven't seen that from him at all. I haven't seen the great passing either to be honest.

From a skillset point of view, I think Perry Jones is superior. Better ballhandler and passer with better length. I understand the concerns over his work ethic, but in terms of his production, that was certainly held back by Baylor's horrible guard play. And let's not forget one is a freshman and the other a sophomore.

[sunny]

I don't know average measurements, but I'd say that college centres are usually pretty similar in size to a lot of nba power forwards. Against guys who are 7 feet, ofcourse he will have some problems; I don't think this is a big issue though.
I've seen people say that he is a poor post defender, but I disagree with that assessment. He is a product of a relatively weak ARizona defense, but given the situation, he does a lot.
He is also a great rebounder, something that is very important if he were to end up playing the 3.

Shooting off the drible - pretty non existant to be honest. He will break down guys and shoot a 3 over them if he wants to (he can), but he will usually drive. He isn't going to make a move so he can take a 12 footer.
Passing - he is great at passing out of double teams and distributing the ball around the perimeter. gRanted, he is by no means a point forward or anything, but is definitely suitable for the next level.

Because the Arizona roster is not really properly made up and in college basketball, each opponent is widely different, every game is going to show something else. I don't know what games you saw him play, but some of them might be outliers.

Derrick Williams may be a 3 he may be a 4. The main thing is, his scoring looks as if it will translate extremely well in the next level. Possibly even better than it does in college. There is no reason to believe that he wont be able to play defense at either position though. It is no guarantee, but he hasn't shown he is incapable at all.

- As for PErry Jones, he has the most potential and best skillset/body out of any bigman since Blake Griffen. You could make that same argument over tons of prospects, but that doesnt mean Perry Jones is anymore likely to develop.

[SkywalkerAC]

i keep imagining lineup combinations with Walker and i think small, defensively challenged, or completely unusable.

Walker-DD...Walker-Barbosa...Walker-Bayless

with Knight I see quite the opposite. suddenly we're very long and have defensive potential. Knight-Barbosa is a very long, rangy backcourt. Bayless might not figure into our long term plans but i think you could play them together and not suffer defensively.

who would take Knight in front of us? Sacto maybe? or Utah or Detroit if they jumped in front of us.

[CunningLinguist]

I don't know average measurements, but I'd say that college centres are usually pretty similar in size to a lot of nba power forwards. Against guys who are 7 feet, ofcourse he will have some problems; I don't think this is a big issue though.
I've seen people say that he is a poor post defender, but I disagree with that assessment. He is a product of a relatively weak ARizona defense, but given the situation, he does a lot.
He is also a great rebounder, something that is very important if he were to end up playing the 3.

Shooting off the drible - pretty non existant to be honest. He will break down guys and shoot a 3 over them if he wants to (he can), but he will usually drive. He isn't going to make a move so he can take a 12 footer.
Passing - he is great at passing out of double teams and distributing the ball around the perimeter. gRanted, he is by no means a point forward or anything, but is definitely suitable for the next level.

Because the Arizona roster is not really properly made up and in college basketball, each opponent is widely different, every game is going to show something else. I don't know what games you saw him play, but some of them might be outliers.

Derrick Williams may be a 3 he may be a 4. The main thing is, his scoring looks as if it will translate extremely well in the next level. Possibly even better than it does in college. There is no reason to believe that he wont be able to play defense at either position though. It is no guarantee, but he hasn't shown he is incapable at all.

- As for PErry Jones, he has the most potential and best skillset/body out of any bigman since Blake Griffen. You could make that same argument over tons of prospects, but that doesnt mean Perry Jones is anymore likely to develop.

Thanks for your response.

If he's a SF, being able to shoot off the dribble will be important. If one considers him as a SF prospect, I would argue that Barnes and TJones have a better skillset for the position.

Barnes can shoot off the dribble and with the step back, though he needs to improve his handle to get to the rim. I think he's proven that he has the tools to be a really good defender at the position too.

In regard to TJones, he has superior ballhandling and passing skills and can shoot off the dribble a bit, though his form needs serious work.

Again I don't question Williams' his ability to score as a bit undersized 4 at the next level along the lines of Jamison, it's just that the ability to create off the dribble and pass is something I value highly because I think it's what can make a player special in the isolation-centric NBA game.

[sunny]

The Iso game is what makes Dwill such a great prospect though.
the lane in the nba is much less crowded than it is in college and he can literally drive by anyone.
In an iso, there are very very few who will be able to stop him. The amount of times he will get to the freethrow line will be similar to a guy like corey Magette.
Keep in mind, this is the same guy who shot the 6th highest pct from 3 in ncaa history and best since 1992.

He will play within a teams offense and play off or on the ball.
With his athleticism, there is no reason to think that he won't be able to play defense.

[TheRealDeal]

This Elite 24 doc is pretty sick so far. They followed Austin Rivers home to his mansion in L.A. It's amazing how great his work ethic still is when you see where he comes from. Kabongo's home was a different story, Blake Street doesn't look like the nicest part of Toronto. The Findlay Prep coach raved about Myck, calling him the fastest player he's ever coached. I love Myck as a prospect because he has my three favorite attributes in a lead guard; lateral quicks on D, court vision and speed w/ the ball. Nick Johnson (Arizona recruit) also oozes with potential. His coached called him the most athletic player he's ever coached and I love that he plays defense. I watched the most recent Findlay Prep team and I'm convinced they could compete in the NCAA.

They had some great footage of Myck, Austin, Johnson and a few of the other H.S. players going up against DeRozan, John Wall and Tyreke Evans. Right now they are following the guys around throughout the week leading up to the game. They showed highlights from the dunk comp & skills challenge. Looks like 2012 will be stacked with blue chippers. I'd love to draft a guy with home town ties like Myck or Tristan but they will have plenty of competition. The game highlights are coming up featuring DeMar in his coaching debut. These next few weeks will be a good time to form an early opinion on the 2012 guys. We could be watching them a lot next year if there's a lockout.

[TheRealDeal]

Quin Cook looks great as well. If we miss out on Kyrie this year then I'd rather wait for one of these 2012 guys. Jose is a tank champion on D, we pay him a ton and he knows how to get our young guys going on offense. Plus he's always happy.

[CunningLinguist]

The Iso game is what makes Dwill such a great prospect though.
the lane in the nba is much less crowded than it is in college and he can literally drive by anyone.
In an iso, there are very very few who will be able to stop him. The amount of times he will get to the freethrow line will be similar to a guy like corey Magette.
Keep in mind, this is the same guy who shot the 6th highest pct from 3 in ncaa history and best since 1992.

He will play within a teams offense and play off or on the ball.
With his athleticism, there is no reason to think that he won't be able to play defense.

Need I bring up Joey Graham?

[sunny]

joey graham had amazing defense and questionable offense in college.
Although his D in the nba was by no means amazing, thats definitely not the reason he sucked.