Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 5

[Rapsfan07]

I'd rather take a 6'7" or 6'8" player that we know can play SF.

Barnes? Sure. But after Irving and Barnes, the only pure-position players in the top-half of the lotto IMO, I'd take Perry to trade. Somebody will always think they can get something out of Perry Jones.

You don't think you we can get anything out of Perry Jones?

[bboyskinnylegs]

I'd rather take a 6'7" or 6'8" player that we know can play SF.

Barnes? Sure. But after Irving and Barnes, the only pure-position players in the top-half of the lotto IMO, I'd take Perry to trade. Somebody will always think they can get something out of Perry Jones.

You don't think you we can get anything out of Perry Jones?

I think he might mean in the sense that even if he doesn't work out here, he'll still have a lot of residual value simply because of his size/athleticism/skillset. If he isn't a star here, someone will always think oh I can maximize his talent, he just wasn't being used properly over there...as opposed to drafting someone like Walker, where if he fails, no one will really give up anything to get him.

[dballislife]

this is my draft wish list

1. draft irving
2. hope wiz get 1st trade up for irving
3. barnes
4. hope minny get 1st and trade for rubio
5. perry high risk gamble
6. go bpa in draft or make trade and hope for rivers next year

[Rapsfan07]

Barnes? Sure. But after Irving and Barnes, the only pure-position players in the top-half of the lotto IMO, I'd take Perry to trade. Somebody will always think they can get something out of Perry Jones.

You don't think you we can get anything out of Perry Jones?

I think he might mean in the sense that even if he doesn't work out here, he'll still have a lot of residual value simply because of his size/athleticism/skillset. If he isn't a star here, someone will always think oh I can maximize his talent, he just wasn't being used properly over there...as opposed to drafting someone like Walker, where if he fails, no one will really give up anything to get him.

Oh. Thanks for the explanation.

[yayotube]

New to the forum but I have been reading quite a bit on the potential draft picks. The one dude that scares me is Perry Jones as he seems too much like a power forward which we have no need for. I know not to always believe what you read, but draft express has this guy labelled as strictly a power forward and seems to have no three point shot whatsoever and potentially insufficient defense. I understand we need as much high ceiling talent as possible but is this guy truly worth risking a top pick on?

Perry Jones is certainly a risk, but imo he's not a big man at all--he's a very tall wing. I think he has definitely been played out of position at the 5 at Baylor this year (plus he had some terrible ball-dominant guards to work with at Baylor). He's comfortable handling the ball, finding the open guy from the perimeter, and blowing by his man with his first step to get to the basket/dish it off to a teammate.

He doesn't have much of a post game (his offense in the post mostly consisted of simple dunks/hooks over smaller defenders) and isn't a great rebounder (7.2rpg) for a big, but he is comfortable taking pull-up/spot-up jumpers. I think his mindset is definitely that of a 3, and with his speed/athleticism I think he can actually play there (unlike Bargs). Imo, he looked much more like a taller wing in the TMac/Rudy Gay/Paul George/Danny Granger mold than a versatile, face-up big man like Bosh/KG. At the 3, his rebounding, help D, and shotblocking would be strengths, rather than being mediocre for a big.

I think his court vision and ballhandling are better than the other wing prospects projected to go high in the lottery, and while his consistency on his jumper hasn't been good this year, his form looks good, and I think that that's probably the easiest part of his game to improve on (his first step/court vision/ballhandling/length/quickness/fluidity are difficult, if not impossible to teach). If he checks out as being the elite athlete that he appears to be in the workouts, and looks like he'll be able to defend on the perimeter, then I'd definitely be on board with drafting him. You'll have to be patient with him, and let him play through his mistakes, but if he pans out he's got legit star potential--and with him, DeMar, and Ed, you could have a very athletic, talented young core to move forward with.

here's some highlights of him this season at Baylor until early December. While obviously this is a highlight mix (so you don't see the missed shots and bad plays), it can give you some insight into how he can play as a wing player. If this is him playing as a 4/5 for Baylor, I'd like to see him playing the 3 full-time:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WcbIPgU38Q[/youtube]

here's some from high school, at the McDonald's All-American and Centrestage Tournament:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OadA5Wm6ISU&feature=player_embedded#at=28[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quxsxSe1YTo&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]

I truly believe he's a 3 and watching high school clips and then seeing college clips you can tell he's a 3 trapped in a system utilizing him as a 4/5. A lot of the criticisms about him in college were position related and it's pretty obvious why.. he's not a 5 or a 4 for that matter.

A lot of people don't think he has the quicks to guard the 3 but I guess only work outs will determine that, especially if he goes up head to head with Derrick Williams and Barnes... but if it's assumed he can, I don't see how we can pass up the youth... that's a home run pick potentially.

[Salted Meat]

I feel like a broken record, but I can't stress enough how important it is for us to get a second lottery pick in this draft.

[Rapsfan07]

I feel like a broken record, but I can't stress enough how important it is for us to get a second lottery pick in this draft.

I've said this numerous times myself and I'm actually quite shocked as to why BC hasn't done it yet. Ever since I started watching these players, I got the feeling that we're going to need another lottery pick in this draft. If not this one then definitely the next one. We could take on additional salary for a pick or trade Bargs for one or both! Bottom line though is, I think it's going to be very important to have another lotto pick. BC should be actively looking into trade scenarios with Milwaukee, Sacramento, Golden State and Detroit.

[TheRealDeal]

Is Enes Kanter possibly making Josh Harrellson better? They just raised the question on ESPN. What if Enes was still playing? Would he be in consideration for the #1 pick? IMO he's still the biggest wildcard in this draft. If he shows size, skills and good enough health when we're evaluating him then I could see BC taking the risk. He loves to buy low by acquiring unproven talent with high ceilings. Amare (out of H.S.), DeMar (struggled @ USC), Ed Davis (coming off injury, didn't work him out), Bargs (1st Euro #1 pick), and a few more European players back in Phoenix all fit the profile.

[Rapture]

Why are everyone saying that our SF should be a great ball handler and creator? Derrick Williams won't be a player like this but on the offensive end he will be a beast. Maybe he won't take people off the dribble consistantly from the three point line but is it necessary? We can post him up in low post or even high post. This way he'll power his way to the rim and get to line multiple times every game. Plus he has a great outside shot.

I really wish we can get one of Irving or D-will and if it's possible to trade up I'd consider it. A core of Irving/D-Will, Derozan and Davis is already looking promising, just need one more piece who we can get from the next draft.

I can't see Knight and Barnes having the same kind of ability to impact games as these two guys. I like Val but he might be a bust and is a projet. P. Jones is just too risky.

D-Will and Irving are the prize of the draft and IMO we need explore any way to get them.

Because Derozan can't handle the ball or create either and you just can't have two wing players like that. There's also the fact that his ability to defend SFs is unproven, even at the college level.

Why can't Knight have as much or more impact. He can create, get to the rim, defend and rebound. He has great size for his position with really good athleticism and he's an 18 year old freshman. I think that kind of guard has a much bigger impact on the NBA game than a post up 3 (assuming that's what Williams is).

Nice reply. I agree that we need a closer, a guy who is able to create that last shot for himself and nail it. And yea D-will doesn't have that ability necessary now. However I see him becoming a beast offensively. He's just so strong and athletic that it'll be really difficult for other SF's to stop him without fouling. I'm not exactly sure who I'd compare him to but I think he'll average close to 25ppg with great efficiency in his prime years. And I don't see him having troubles guarding other small forwards, with his athletic ability and smarts. I guess we just have to wait and see.

Regarding Knight, I agree with your points but i have also some concerns. In the games that I've seen he's been able break his man down but he settles usually for mid range jumpers or floaters. I haven't seen him finishing strong at the rim and adsorbing contact usually. I think he'll have some troubles in the NBA, close to the basket and also getting to the free throw line. Also his passing game is under developed. Don't get me wrong I like him, but I just don't see him being on the same level as Irving and D-will as a prospect.

[CunningLinguist]

Two reasons I don't want Perry Jones:

1. I don't want a tweener. I want somebody who has played a particular position for years, knows the position & knows that he's working hard to get better at that position. I'm sick of experiments. Can he play NBA SF? Can he play NBA PF? Nobody knows. He seems to want to play SF. Does he want to play SF because he is soft/ weak & doesn't want to bang down low? All these big tall guys wanting to play a finess game these days.........the chances of him becoming another Durant are very slim.

2. Doesn't sound like a competitor & sounds kinda soft.

I'd rather take a 6'7" or 6'8" player that we know can play SF. We already have a 6'10"+ player that wants to play like a SF instead of a big.

What happened to people wanting to build a more traditional team?

I think the term tweener gets misused/overused. I see Perry as a face up 4 similar to Chris Bosh, only with better ballhandling and passing skills. Obviously he'll need to bulk up some to work in the post. There's plenty of time for that as he's only 19. When he gets to league and realizes he can't guard SFs hopefully he'll understand that he's more suited for the 4.

Derrick Williams is another guy described as a tweener who I see as a slightly undersized 4. The only SF aspect of his game is the ability to hit open 3s. His ability to guard that position is also unproven.

The one guy that gets labelled a tweener that I think is most suitable for the SF position is Terrence Jones. He has the ballhandling and passing skills and he's shown that he can guard smaller players.

[CunningLinguist]

I'm willing to bet anyone here that BKnight turns out to be all hype.


Lou Williams 2.0

1) what would the criteria be for evaluating that?
2) over what time period is that evaluation?
3) how much would you like to bet?

[CunningLinguist]

I really don't know why any of the underclassmen not floating on hype would come out this year.

Not only are they staring at a season off in a major developmental year, but all of the organizations near the top of draft are abominable- not typically good franchises, riding out the low part of the cycle after a window closed, but typically bad franchises, in undesirable(TBD?) locations with serious question marks regarding ownership/management/market/direction.

Two reasons:

1) $$$$
2) The longer you stay in college, the more you open up your game to scrutiny. Unless you improve siginficantly, your stock tends to drop in the eyes of scouts as new players with minimal exposure come on the scene

[CunningLinguist]

I feel like a broken record, but I can't stress enough how important it is for us to get a second lottery pick in this draft.

I've said this numerous times myself and I'm actually quite shocked as to why BC hasn't done it yet. Ever since I started watching these players, I got the feeling that we're going to need another lottery pick in this draft. If not this one then definitely the next one. We could take on additional salary for a pick or trade Bargs for one or both! Bottom line though is, I think it's going to be very important to have another lotto pick. BC should be actively looking into trade scenarios with Milwaukee, Sacramento, Golden State and Detroit.

Perhaps because we don't even know who's declaring for the draft yet? It's hard trade for a pick that you don't know the value of.

[Salted Meat]

I feel like a broken record, but I can't stress enough how important it is for us to get a second lottery pick in this draft.

I've said this numerous times myself and I'm actually quite shocked as to why BC hasn't done it yet. Ever since I started watching these players, I got the feeling that we're going to need another lottery pick in this draft. If not this one then definitely the next one. We could take on additional salary for a pick or trade Bargs for one or both! Bottom line though is, I think it's going to be very important to have another lotto pick. BC should be actively looking into trade scenarios with Milwaukee, Sacramento, Golden State and Detroit.

Perhaps because we don't even know who's declaring for the draft yet? It's hard trade for a pick that you don't know the value of.

I know what you're saying. Teams don't know if the lottery will improve their draft position, but i think we all have some idea as to the majority of players who will likely opt to go pro. Look at Cleveland. They were already able to get another top-10 pick from the Clippers just for taking on B-Diddy's contract... we need to consider doing the same, especially in such a perceived "weak" draft class, where we might be able to acquire picks at a discount.

Deals with Detroit for Rip, Milwaukee for Maggette/Salmons, Charlotte for Diop/Carroll, and Sacramento for Udrih/Garcia should all be considered if they result in us getting another pick. Salary will be heavily pro-rated next season, so we'd be taking a much smaller hit financially, and those players would then be much closer to becoming expiring deals. Keep in mind also that BC, for all his faults, is a master at trading away seemingly untradeable contracts.

Imagine us walking out of the draft with a PG/C combo like Irving/Kanter? or a SF/PG combo like Barnes or Williams and Walker/Knight? Both types of moves would be huge in addressing positions of need and put us in a really great position heading into next season (if there is one)

[delaney8]

Was trying to think of a comp for Derrick Williams and Abdur Rahim came to mind. I kinda see him having the type of career where he's a very productive player, play anywhere from 3-5 but not your primary guy (least not on a championship team).

[phailing101]

Every year the draft is the single biggest hype fest for everyone on this board (me included).

Every year you fall in love with a handful of players and desperately want BC to get a 2nd lottery pick.

Frankly, it makes no sense. This team isn't going to win any games with so much youth. You need a combination of veterans and young talent.

Stick with what is currently the #4 pick overall (GO SAC!) and lets keep building properly.

[Comeatme_Bro]

personally I want to draft 5 rookies and put them in the starting lineup so they can be the next Fab 5 and revolutionize the game!

[Reignman]

Two reasons I don't want Perry Jones:

1. I don't want a tweener. I want somebody who has played a particular position for years, knows the position & knows that he's working hard to get better at that position. I'm sick of experiments. Can he play NBA SF? Can he play NBA PF? Nobody knows. He seems to want to play SF. Does he want to play SF because he is soft/ weak & doesn't want to bang down low? All these big tall guys wanting to play a finess game these days.........the chances of him becoming another Durant are very slim.

2. Doesn't sound like a competitor & sounds kinda soft.

I'd rather take a 6'7" or 6'8" player that we know can play SF. We already have a 6'10"+ player that wants to play like a SF instead of a big.

What happened to people wanting to build a more traditional team?

I think the term tweener gets misused/overused. I see Perry as a face up 4 similar to Chris Bosh, only with better ballhandling and passing skills. Obviously he'll need to bulk up some to work in the post. There's plenty of time for that as he's only 19. When he gets to league and realizes he can't guard SFs hopefully he'll understand that he's more suited for the 4.

Derrick Williams is another guy described as a tweener who I see as a slightly undersized 4. The only SF aspect of his game is the ability to hit open 3s. His ability to guard that position is also unproven.

The one guy that gets labelled a tweener that I think is most suitable for the SF position is Terrence Jones. He has the ballhandling and passing skills and he's shown that he can guard smaller players.

Do not agree. It's actually a term that should be used more often. There's a ton of players that get drafted high because of teams getting enamoured with "size to skill" and not looking at their tweener status and then those players fail to reach their perceived ceilings.

For every Durant there's a Bargnani, Beasley and Tyrus Thomas.

I'm extremely weary of players that haven't shown they can defend the position they will likely play in the league and right now in this draft there's at least 3 or 4 guys that fall into that category: P Jones, D Will, T Jones and even Sullinger.

This is why I'm so high on Barnes, there's nothing tweener-ish about him, he's a prototypical SF that is a very good defender/rebounder at his position and has above average height/length for the position. Outside of Irving, Barnes, Val and possibly Kanter every other projected top 7-8 picks have serious questions about the position they will play because of size issues or skill issues, mainly on the defensive end.

I hope "two way" potential is high on BC's list when he's scouting these players. From the last two drafts I'd say it is.

[Kevin Willis]

Perry Jones reminds me of Kirilenko. Long, quick - with defensive capabilities. Not a polished scorer but can get you some points. Kirilenko for his career is averaging 12 ppg / 6 reb / 2 blocks and 1.5 steals.

Or maybe Randolph like nbadraft.net states. More for his attitude than anything. Randolph was suppose to be the next Bosh but his mental is just not there. Because of his lackadaisical play I would rather take Leonard because we know he would like a beast and hit his ceiling, which is lower than Perry's. However Perry has never come close to reaching his ceiling and nothing to show he never will and that alone can make him a worse pick.

Don't get sucked in the with the make-up because you'll be in for a shock when it gets washed off.

[SDM]

Crazy idea.

If Washington ends up with #1 and we end up with #4, would anyone entertain either of the following:

#1/Blatche/filler for #4/Bargnani
#1/Blatche/Lewis for #4/Kleiza/Bargnani/Barbosa/Bayless

I obviously prefer the first deal, but while we pay a boatload for Lewis in the short term, he has two years less than Kleiza and Bargnani and expires at the same time as Calderon. Under contract for 2012-2013, we'd have Davis, DD, Amir, and our first this year and next year... Plus about $40M to play with on the market.

For WAS, Bargs is a good fit next to McGee and Blatche needs a change of scenery. They chop up Lewis' large deal for three smaller ones.