Josh smith is the Black Hole

[general]

I swear we are just a much better team without him.He just shoots whenever he feels at Bad times and is really bad on defense.He's a good hlp side defender which is why he blocks shots But Big difference plus he plays like the coach son lazy like he doesnt care Trade him while he still has Value.

[Hood President]

No we are not a better team. He had a HORRIBLE night. Thats it.

[Geaux_Hawks]

No we are not a better team. He had a HORRIBLE night. Thats it.

+10

[Skyhawk1]

Trade him to the Warriors for S. Curry and Biedrins. If not, trade him anywhere, but just trade him.

[MaceCase]

The guy has made the transition to a volume scorer this season but I wouldn't go so far as to call him a black hole. I always chuckle when I glance at a boxscore and notice him putting up more shot attempts than Joe and Jamal. I mean seriously, how is that even possible? Got a roster with 3 chuckers now, lord help us.

[parson]

He's opinionated, stubborn and - often - hotheaded ... and many superstars are. He has the mindset to be a star AND the skillset.

Let's focus on getting what we need, rather than getting rid of players we're mad at. Seriously, I'd trade Smoove for a good Center or a really good PG, but it's foolish to just throw him away.

Those of you demanding we just dump him are arguing that the present team would be better by subtacting him. Really?

[evildallas]

Josh and Jason Collins carried the load on Wednesday. Zaza, Al, and Jamal carried the load on Friday. During the season Josh has had many outings to wear out your last nerve, but these one game overreactions are getting tedious. Just because we won a game that Josh played poorly in doesn't mean we'd be better without him.

[geeman]

I just knew the " LET TRADE JOSH BECAUSE WE'RE BETTER WITHOUT HIM" tread was coming, when we won this game with him on the bench. As far as the game, you could just tell we were going to come back, because as bad as we played we were still in it. Plus, there gettng old fassst! Did anyone else notice it?

[myrak433]

I would trade Horford before I even think of trading Josh Smith. And I don't won't to trade Horford anywhere unless we get a top notch Center.

[Harry10]

^ i don't know what the point is..... Horford had a bad Orlando game and Josh had a great Orlando game (Horford was going up against Dwight), Josh had a bad Boston game and Horford had a great Boston game (Josh was going up against KG)...... again, what is the point? those fake fans should just get over it, it is great that when Horford has a bad game, Josh steps up is their to put up number, and vice vers

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1103630

[Geaux_Hawks]

Man lets just face it, our building blocks should be Horford and Josh. Everything else should be on the block this summer unless we win it all, which we would still listen for good offers and not just dumps..

[johnny878]

I swear we are just a much better team without him..

yeah... how bout no lol. brb getting blown out everygame without him

[Ruhiel]

Hawks 2 most unreplaceable players are Smith bcuz of his multiple dimensions and then Horford (as a PF not a center). Marvin can easily replace and outproduce Joe in a big lineup. Shop & Trade Joe acquire center and PG in 2012.

[HMFFL]

Hawks 2 most unreplaceable players are Smith bcuz of his multiple dimensions and then Horford (as a PF not a center). Marvin can easily replace and outproduce Joe in a big lineup. Shop & Trade Joe acquire center and PG in 2012.

I disagree.

The advantage we have with Josh Smith is his ability to block shots. We would be better off with a 4 that is better at rebounding and can shoot jumpers. We have that with Al Horford. The problem that is going to be ongoing is at the 1 & 5. We need size inside to compete. Finding athletic players that can excite the crowd are easy to come by for the most part, we have that with Josh Smith, but even still he is replaceable.

[johnny878]

Hawks 2 most unreplaceable players are Smith bcuz of his multiple dimensions and then Horford (as a PF not a center). Marvin can easily replace and outproduce Joe in a big lineup. Shop & Trade Joe acquire center and PG in 2012.

I disagree.

The advantage we have with Josh Smith is his ability to block shots. We would be better off with a 4 that is better at rebounding and can shoot jumpers. We have that with Al Horford. The problem that is going to be ongoing is at the 1 & 5. We need size inside to compete. Finding athletic players that can excite the crowd are easy to come by for the most part, we have that with Josh Smith, but even still he is replaceable.

id argue smiths skillset is much harder to replace then horfords at the 4. If the plan is to move horford to the 4, how many powerforwards in the league can grab 8, 9 boards a game and hit an open midrange jump shot? a ****.

[evildallas]

It would be easier to think about trading Josh if Marvin Williams wasn't an unmotivated, worthless excuse for an NBA player. Maybe he can finish his degree during the lockout and then finally work enough on his game to develop some trade value. It wasn't his fault he was drafted #2 overall, but it is his fault how little he's improved these last several years. Josh has the skills that you want in an athletic 4 man, but he's also our best SF because Marvin is so worthless.

[Ruhiel]

It would be easier to think about trading Josh if Marvin Williams wasn't an unmotivated, worthless excuse for an NBA player. Maybe he can finish his degree during the lockout and then finally work enough on his game to develop some trade value. It wasn't his fault he was drafted #2 overall, but it is his fault how little he's improved these last several years. Josh has the skills that you want in an athletic 4 man, but he's also our best SF because Marvin is so worthless.

Marvin is like Joe not physical enough to be a 3. Big enough to be a tall 2.
Joe is better at dribbling, and shooting tough shots off the dribble, Marvin is better at actually scoring off the dribble, slashing, and scoring within a motion offense!

[HMFFL]

Hawks 2 most unreplaceable players are Smith bcuz of his multiple dimensions and then Horford (as a PF not a center). Marvin can easily replace and outproduce Joe in a big lineup. Shop & Trade Joe acquire center and PG in 2012.

I disagree.

The advantage we have with Josh Smith is his ability to block shots. We would be better off with a 4 that is better at rebounding and can shoot jumpers. We have that with Al Horford. The problem that is going to be ongoing is at the 1 & 5. We need size inside to compete. Finding athletic players that can excite the crowd are easy to come by for the most part, we have that with Josh Smith, but even still he is replaceable.

id argue smiths skillset is much harder to replace then horfords at the 4. If the plan is to move horford to the 4, how many powerforwards in the league can grab 8, 9 boards a game and hit an open midrange jump shot? a ****.

If Horford was at the 4, I would feel more confident about the team, and would expect 9/10 rebs a night. He already has the mid-range jumper, but we need it from Josh, and it's very sketchy. If Josh actually boxed out and used the fundamentals of the game he'd probably average 10rpg.

[Ruhiel]

I'll be honest I'm going off PER, minutes played, and current/potential positional matchups.

Josh Smith's PER is 19.31 and 34 minutes per game, down from last year's 21.04 and 35 minutes per game. He put on some weight and so this is not surprising. A good thing is his FT% is up so when he gets fouled he produces. He also has developed 3P% hitting at 33%.

Josh Smith's PER is 19.31 The only power forwards above him are:
mpg
1 Kevin Love, 35.8mpg 24.39
2 Dirk Nowitzki, 34.3mpg 23.52
3 Pau Gasol, 37.0mpg 23.33
4 Amare Stoudemire, 36.8mpg 22.78
5 Zach Randolph, 36.3mpg 22.67
6 Blake Griffin, 38.0mpg 21.93
7 LaMarcus Aldridge, 39.6mpg 21.57
8 Kevin Garnett, 31.3mpg 20.67
9 David West, 35.0mpg 20.51
10 Paul Millsap, 34.31mpg 19.83
11 Lamar Odom, 32.2mpg 19.50
12 Chris Bosh, 36.3mpg 19.50

PER is the total sum of the impact one has on the floor. Basically Josh has as much impact as Lamar Odom at PF for extended minutes. Minutes per game is the length of impact. All the players above Josh are elite. Now lets see Josh's SF competition.

Last year Josh's PER was 21.0. Carmelo's level last year was 22 and Pierce's was 18. Yet no All-Star nods, no awards, no adulation.Why because Josh is still viewed as emotionally immature/underdeveloped and so people naturally assume his game is underdeveloped as well. But that was not true last year, nor this year.

But that was yesteryear. Let's see where Josh's current 19.31 standing ranks among the position Josh prefers to play, SF.
playerEfficiency
1 LeBron James, 38.8mpg 27.34
2 Kevin Durant, 38.9mpg 23.70
3 Carmelo Anthony, 35.7mpg 21.82
4 Paul Pierce, 34.7mpg 19.76
5 Danny Granger, 35.0mpg 17.89
6 Rudy Gay, 39.9mpg 17.88
7 Shawn Marion, 28.2mpg 17.09
8 Andrei Kirilenko, 31.2mpg 16.68
9 Gerald Wallace, 37.9mpg 16.28
10 Corey Maggette, 20.9mpg 15.89
11 Jared Dudley, 26.1mpg 15.67
12 Luol Deng, 39.1mpg 15.58

Josh outranks Danny Granger, Rudy Gay, and Gerald Wallace. Although Rudy Gay got injured he was fully healthy for the 54 games he produced at this rate.
This chart's purpose is not to say Josh Smith is as good as Durant or Lebron. But to show the talent drop off from him to the next player.
Pierce and Carmelo cannot guard Smith in the pivot but will have to because the SGs cannot guard 6'8 Smith neither.
----
Here is Horford's PER and minutes amongst the two biggest positions, power forwards and centers.
PER
1 Dwight Howard, 37.6mpg 26.13
2 Kevin Love, 35.8mpg 24.39
3 Dirk Nowitzki, 34.3mpg 23.52
4 Pau Gasol, 37.0mpg 23.33
5 Amare Stoudemire, 36.8mpg 22.78
6 Zach Randolph, 36.3mpg 22.67
7 Tim Duncan, 28.4mpg 21.94
8 Blake Griffin, 38.0mpg 21.93
9 LaMarcus Aldridge, 39.6mpg 21.57
10 Andrew Bynum, 27.8mpg 21.14
11 Kevin Garnett, 31.3mpg 20.67
12 Al Horford, 35.1mpg 20.79

Josh and Horford play good minutes so it's not a fluke. This type of consistency and high production levels is rare across the league. The problem is that Josh wants to play the 3 and Horford wants to play the 4. Some say trade Smith for a center. Assuming we do this for equal salaries, it is at best a lateral move because our perimeters will still be incapable of getting to the free throw line.

Marvin has shown he is better in a big lineup at the 2. Joe may be better at the 1, since his 3.4 FTA is not cutting it.
Still if you started a backcourt of Joe and Marvin, who on the roster would be big enough to play the 3?
As far as building a well rounded roster I say Josh and Horford are untradeable. Maybe the Hawks want a Big 3, but even Kobe, Gasol, and Odom needed Bynum to play big down low.

I say trade Joe for expirings and then sign CP3 and D12 in the offseason. Joe Johnson is the black hole. He is not a player whose style you build (around) and expect to win a title.

[evildallas]

It would be easier to think about trading Josh if Marvin Williams wasn't an unmotivated, worthless excuse for an NBA player. Maybe he can finish his degree during the lockout and then finally work enough on his game to develop some trade value. It wasn't his fault he was drafted #2 overall, but it is his fault how little he's improved these last several years. Josh has the skills that you want in an athletic 4 man, but he's also our best SF because Marvin is so worthless.

Marvin is like Joe not physical enough to be a 3. Big enough to be a tall 2.
Joe is better at dribbling, and shooting tough shots off the dribble, Marvin is better at actually scoring off the dribble, slashing, and scoring within a motion offense!

I disagree if you are saying that Marvin doesn't have the body to be a SF. If you are saying that he doesn't have the mentality to play physical enough to be a SF then I can't argue. I agree with your point about Marvin fitting a motion offense better, which is why I think he suffers with Joe or Jamal in the lineup offensively. My logic is that Jamal (especially with the ball in his hands as PG) doesn't even try to fit into the motion offense and Joe doesn't stick with it long. The results are less shots for Marvin and the ones he gets aren't the same quality of looks he'd get from the motion offense. The other half of it is that I see Marvin as mentality weak. He's not an alpha for sure, but beyond that he's so passive that he seems content with being the last option. To me he's the perfect example of the downside of guaranteed contracts. Joe may be grossly overpaid, but I'm more troubled by Marvin. Marvin should be able to earn his level of pay through effort, confidence, and working on his game in the offseason. Instead he pockets an average of 7.5M a year and produces at below a mid-level exception maybe below the bi-annual exception level.