Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 6

[sunny]

if Bayless was in this year's draft class, this board would go gaga over him.

[5DOM]

Not sure how Knight is a better penetrator than Bayless was, but I think people forget how good of a prospect Bayless was.

He's a better penetrator because he can get to the hoop more easily without a screen. You have to consider that the paint area is much more congested in college than the pros.

I think the fact that Knight and Walker didn't have great games last night and Bayless did is influencing people's opinions a little too much.

Not really. I thought we were comparing Bayless in his freshman year to Knight/Walker this year in which case Bayless was clearly the better player, penetrator and possibly the better prospect than Knight. Kemba's had a better season than both but he's a junior.

[arbsn]

Knight Lost.

[wanker]

What about the guy who was a top 10 recruit coming out of highschool, averaged 20 points, 4 assists and 3 rebounds a game in his freshman year at college, was projected to be the third pick in the draft most of the year, but droped to 7 in the latest mocks due to an surge in improvement of other pointguards.

Can anybody here explain to me why Knight/Walker are better prospects than our very own Jerryd Bayless in their opinion?

For one, they're both better shooters and penetrators.

Huh?

Bayless: .458, .839, .407 at Arizona
Walker: .432, .818, .336
Knight: .423, .795, .377

And neither are even comparable (let alone "better") at penetration. I'm not sure how you came up with that.

[baulderdash77]

There is a good argument for Knight not being an upgrade over Bayless.

However at this point Kemba looks like he could be a better player. But maybe the difference isn't large enough to justify a top 4/top 3 pick on. However I'm very high on Kemba Walker.

[Rhettmatic]

I've been intrigued by Knight but he was just terrible last night. Terrible.

I know we all want an exciting new point guard (myself included) but unless we luck out in the lottery we're probably better off going in a different direction.

[baulderdash77]

If we can get a 2nd lotto pick, I'd like to see us pick up John Henson.

His numbers down the stretch were nothing short of amazing. 13/13 w/ 3.5 blocks after Kendall Marshall became a starter. This included a double doubles in 15 of 18 games and 10 straight games.

[CunningLinguist]

What about the guy who was a top 10 recruit coming out of highschool, averaged 20 points, 4 assists and 3 rebounds a game in his freshman year at college, was projected to be the third pick in the draft most of the year, but droped to 7 in the latest mocks due to an surge in improvement of other pointguards.

Can anybody here explain to me why Knight/Walker are better prospects than our very own Jerryd Bayless in their opinion?

For one, they're both better shooters and penetrators.

Huh?

Bayless: .458, .839, .407 at Arizona
Walker: .432, .818, .336
Knight: .423, .795, .377

And neither are even comparable (let alone "better") at penetration. I'm not sure how you came up with that.

By actually watching them play. I've never found Bayless to be very good at shooting off the dribble.

To me, the biggest difference is the PG skills including the ability to see the whole floor, where Knight and Walker have the advantage. By no means am I suggesting that either is Steve Nash in the making or even as good as Irving, just superior to Bayless at the college level in that regard.

[Yeezus_]

Say no to Walker, I feel he will be the bust of the draft.

[TiKusDom]

If UK players did not choke at the free throw like , like Terrence Jones going 0-6 at the FT, if he even hit 50 % of his FTs that would of been a win for UK. If Liggins didnt shoot 1-7, this would be a different story. Overall here is what happened in the game.

First half UK shoots itself in the foot, it was one of the worst halves they played in over 30 games. The team as a whole was rushing its shots, making mental mistakes, it was the classic sign of a young team that has never been in this position. Going for 20 points in the half, a product of young guy jitters and inexperience, you could tell the team was nervous at first.

Second half , UK comes storming back and erases the deficit to take the lead, they were more composed and figured out UCONN. If they played the same way in both halves, it wouldn't have been close. Knight was completely gassed toward the end however , since Kentucky has no one that can really run the point, he didnt have the luxury of playing off the ball like Walker did. Walker did not impress me more than Knight. Their performances came to a draw, and I remind you he is 2 years older than Knight , and the more experienced UCONN team barely edged by KY .

Deciding factors were experience . Kemba is a Junior, a UCONN team was in the final four just 2 seasons ago, where he was on the pine. People forget that you are comparing a Junior to a Freshman, and a team that has just been to the final 4 to a team that hasnt in over a decade led by an 18 year old . In terms of game performance Kemba was clearly bothered by a more athletic defender in Liggins on him, now I ask, how is he going to fare with having far more athletic defenders with him in the NBA every game? Statistically , him and Knight were at a draw, Knight had less turnovers and more rebounds, but was less efficient in scoring ( again because he was gassed toward the end and his legs weren't under him when he attempted those layups under 5 minutes to go )

All in all , to the inexperienced eye UCONN squeaking by 1 point and getting the win is somehow an indictment that somehow Walker is a better player to select over Knight. However when analyzing the two players and their teams, it becomes very apparent that Knight is still the better prospect and player to select over Walker . 100 times out of 100 you go with Knight.

* Knight is a freshman 18 year old who doesn't turn 19 until December and has led his team to its first final four appearance in over 10 years . Walker turns 21 this year in a few months, with a team that has already been to the final four and is more experienced in this setting. What if Knight had the luxury of having an extra year and a half to develop his skills, would the outcome be remotely close? The age difference is significant, and Knight has already accomplished at his age what Kemba could only dream of when he was 18.

* Kemba was clearly bothered with a more athletic defender on him, shooting 6/15. This goes back to the point that his game will not translate to the NBA where the competition will be far more superior athletically in every way. Good NCAA player, but this will not translate to the NBA where guards are much bigger, faster and stronger than he is now. Liggins showed that with a more athletic defender on Walker, which he will face every game in the NBA, his shooting is neutralized, and what will Kemba do when the physically dominant guards of the NBA start posting him up? He will get eaten alive. Physically Knight is far more suited for the NBA game than Kemba. Yes people can look at the numbers and say he shot worse, but the fact remains that Knight carries the entire UK teams burden as a play maker, with no one to relieve him at the point, and that takes a toll on your body when you are an 18 year old playing 40 minutes in a game against bigger and more developed bodies.

In terms of who is the better prospect, again its Knight by a mile. He has accomplished far more than Kemba at this stage of his age. You can only falter him for not coming away with a W but hes got the heart of a champion and all the tools to succeed in the NBA at the next level. It will take experience , he is still only 18 years old. Imagine if this was his second or third year in the NCAA, and he is still growing and still a teenager. When you have an 18 year old leading your team to the final four and putting on the kind of clutch performances in the tournament and not backing down, it speaks volumes. Again 18 year old freshman vs soon to be 21 year old Junior, who because of his age has seen the final four before, but Knight has not. The learning curve and development at this stage for an 18 year freshman Knight compared to Walker at the same stage as a freshman is not even close. If you are selecting between the two to build an NBA team, you take Knight and run. It's not even close.

[5DOM]

I think you are just biased as hell. Kemba had a better overall game than Knight last night and has been more consistent throughout the season. He got to where he wanted to go, and created decently for both himself and others. If you thought Kemba was bothered, what about Knight who shot 6-23 and 3-11 from the 3 point line also against inferior competition. I think at least 2 of Knight's turnovers were forced by Kemba too. And does anyone know when Knight was actually born? Is it 1991 or 1992? Besides, I think you are putting way too much emphasis on age anyway. There have been freshmen who never improved, and seniors who did.

I also think people forget that Brandon Knight didn't have a great tournament. Sure he shot some clutch shots, but he shot 35.7% from the floor, averaged 4.4 APG and 3.4 TOPG.

[Brinbe]

No reason to totally dump on Knight because of last night. He's still a freshman that helped lead a team to the final four, which is definitely impressive. Don't lose sight of that.

But props to Kemba, he did look really solid, and I definitely wouldn't mind picking him up either.

That being said, there is an argument to be made about their upside relative to Bayless (who did make a believer out of me last night) and if they offer enough of an long-term upgrade over him. And at this point, as much as I like both Knight/Walker, I'm not sure they do.

So right now, as repeated often in the last few pages, it's down to Irving/Williams/Barnes as the three players I'd be absolutely comfortable with right now. Irving because he's clearly (at least to me) a franchise-leading point, and arguably the best player in this draft. And Barnes (and hopefully Williams) would both be a great option at the 3. Also, with their solid 3-pt shooting ability, they would be a great long-term complement to DeMar.

And like most of y'all, I'm not sure what we do if we're in that 4-7 range. I'd probably dig really deep on Perry Jones and see for sure if he can ever cut it at the 3, because if he can, he's definitely the pick. If not, I think we need to work out Kanter & Valanciunas and see if either can be a C at this level. If they can, you need to take a chance on that.

Only after that would I consider Walker and Knight.

So right now, personally, it's
Irving
Williams
Barnes
P. Jones
Kanter/Valanciunas
Knight/Walker

Absolutely not earth-shattering at all, I know. But after watching Bayless last night (and both Knight/Walker), it did make me rethink really hard on how we may approach this draft. Of course, a lot will change till June, but this is just how I feel at the moment.

[5DOM]

No reason to totally dump on Knight because of last night. He's still a freshman that helped lead a team to the final four, which is definitely impressive. Don't lose sight of that.

Of course. But I just disagree that their performances last night "came to a draw". Knight actually looked bad.

[wanker]

@ TiKusDom

[TiKusDom]

I think you are just biased as hell. Kemba had a better overall game than Knight last night and has been more consistent throughout the season. He got to where he wanted to go, and created decently for both himself and others. If you thought Kemba was bothered, what about Knight who shot 6-23 and 3-11 from the 3 point line also against inferior competition. I think at least 2 of Knight's turnovers were forced by Kemba too. And does anyone know when Knight was actually born? Is it 1991 or 1992? Besides, I think you are putting way too much emphasis on age anyway. There have been freshmen who never improved, and seniors who did.

Like I said, if you read my post, Knight was gassed toward the end, he does not have the luxury of playing off the ball, he is kentucky's sole playmaker. Knight created for others too, 2 less assisnts but one less turnover. Toward the end Knight was gassed, again body of an 18 year old who is still developing versus a body of 21 year old, Knight is still growing I believe. I see what I see, there is a reason that the top 5 selections are all freshmen in the draft and not seniors. I might be putting too much emphasis on age, but so does the NBA. Why do you think every top prospect in this country is a freshman , apart from Williams who is a sophomore, and not some senior averaging 20 points per game? Lets see, there are no seniors even remotely close to be in the lottery , why do you think that is? Jimmer Fredette is the only senior in this year's draft thats even close to being projected as a lottery pick. Do you know something the NBA doesnt about age and its importance? If age is not important how come not a single senior was selected in last year's top 15? not even in the top 20. Maybe the NBA scouts realize that age is important

Irving - Freshman
Barnes- Freshman
Kanter- Freshman
Sullinger- Freshman
Perry Jones- Freshman
Terrence Jones- Freshman
Knight- Freshman

Its not bias, its intelligence, scouts and NBA players know that the younger a player shows domination, the greater potential and room for growth. Objectiveness is not bias. It's just facts. Last year 3 freshmen are taken in the top 5. Wall Cousins and Favors. Turner and Johnson were Juniors. How has that worked out?

[Brinbe]

No reason to totally dump on Knight because of last night. He's still a freshman that helped lead a team to the final four, which is definitely impressive. Don't lose sight of that.

Of course. But I just disagree that their performances last night "came to a draw". Knight actually looked bad.

Actually, I didn't even see your post before I posted, so that wasn't directed at you at all. Sorry if there was any misunderstanding.

It was just a general comment reacting to what I've been reading since last night. And I wouldn't disagree with you at all, Kemba definitely won that match-up, but I think that's to be expected. He's just the better player right now. But I think the argument has always been, who'll be better in the future, at the next level, and I don't think one game determines that.

[5DOM]

It's actually because the non freshmen (especially the seniors) suck this season.
Age difference matters when the two players are at similar talent level, but Kemba's been clearly better this year. If you look at the past drafts, non freshmen had no problem going top 5-10 in the draft.

[FluLikeSymptoms]

if Bayless was in this year's draft class, this board would go gaga over him.

Bayless is new, but Knight and Kemba are new-er. No ice cream for Jerryd.

[Mr.Raptorsingh]

If Kanter has a legitimate post game, I think I'd take him at 4.

[TiKusDom]

It's actually because the non freshmen (especially the seniors) suck this season.
Age difference matters when the two players are at similar talent level, but Kemba's been clearly better this year.

Oh really? Then how come last year the first senior was picked at 23 ? and not a single senior in the top ten the year before that until Terrence Williams was selected at 11 ? and not a single senior selected in the top 10 the year before that? Yeah if you look at history, age IS an important factor for NBA scouts