Explaining the squeeze play to Evermore

Post #1 » by **YogiStewart** » Sun Apr 10, 2011 5:32 pm

This thread gives posters a chance to politely explain to Evermore why the squeeze play is not the answer to all questions.
It will remain stickied until we can all come to a rational agreement that, no, we should not be using the squeeze play as our main offensive weapon.

hyper316 · Post #2 » by **hyper316** » Sun Apr 10, 2011 6:34 pm

lol great thread. can someone explain when it is best to pull if off? 0 outs, 1 out? what inning?

Post #3 » by **darth_federer** » Sun Apr 10, 2011 6:40 pm

You dont do it with 2 outs because the guy making the play might be thrown out at first

You dont do it with 2 strikes because a bunt attempt that is fouled off is counted as a strike I believe

You also need guys who are actually good at bunting to pull this off

Im pretty sure Evermore is messing around with everybody...

Post #4 » by **Schad** » Sun Apr 10, 2011 6:43 pm

My final attempt at it:

There is no one in baseball more freakishly devoted to the squeeze than Mike Scioscia. Hell, he once ordered a suicide squeeze which blew up and got the Angels knocked out of the playoffs (note the litany of failed squeeze attempts in the article, plus the words "fraught with danger"). And that was with a great bunter in Erick Aybar, rather than a guy like Edwin Encarnacion who has not once been asked to bunt in a six-year major-league career, or a power hitter like Adam Lind who cannot bunt.

Last night, the Angels had a runner on third with fewer than two outs on five different occasions, two of which came in extra innings. They showed squeeze bunt exactly none of these times. Why? Because even Mike Scioscia, who is as devoted to giving up outs as anyone in baseball, realizes that you don't **** squeeze bunt with guys who can't bunt. It's like designing your offense in basketball by forbidding any shot other than skyhooks, because when you watch highlight reels of Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, he never misses them.

On the infallibility of bunting overall, we got a rather gory demonstration of exactly how badly one can fail to bunt last night with JP Arencibia. He tried to bunt a 1-1 breaking ball, almost ended up on the seat of his pants, and popped the ball straight up in the air behind the plate. It was like watching a blind man attempt to catch a butterfly.

Hoopstarr · Post #5 » by **Hoopstarr** » Sun Apr 10, 2011 6:52 pm

There is no better example of over-managing than the suicide squeeze. People get frustrated by the straight forward in-game strategy of baseball so they compensate by infusing strategy where it's not needed. There are extremely precise situations that call for a squeeze play and even then I still would be weary of it because so many things have to go right at once. Basically it's when there's a total minnow of a batter at the plate who is also a good bunter in a must score situation, with 1 out or 2 if desperate, 1 or less strikes, a good runner on 3rd, preferably against a lefty pitcher, and on a fastball count. So put that together and you might want to do it.

Post #6 » by **YogiStewart** » Sun Apr 10, 2011 7:50 pm

my next thread will be dedicated to when its best to steal home plate.

evilRyu · Post #7 » by **evilRyu** » Sun Apr 10, 2011 8:15 pm

YogiStewart wrote:my next thread will be dedicated to when its best to steal home plate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58xVbRGD ... ata_player
Skip to 2:20 mark

kwamebargnani · Post #8 » by **kwamebargnani** » Sun Apr 10, 2011 10:45 pm

Bunt in general sucks.

Three things I despise: Bunt, Pitchout, Tallet

J-Roc · Post #9 » by **J-Roc** » Sun Apr 10, 2011 11:01 pm

How about pinch hitting? Does that ever make sense?

hyper316 · Post #10 » by **hyper316** » Sun Apr 10, 2011 11:23 pm

J-Roc wrote:How about pinch hitting? Does that ever make sense?

in the NL

Post #11 » by **YogiStewart** » Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:06 am

jays should try this play:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehQI0uJbXxU&feature=related[/youtube]

Modern_epic · Post #12 » by **Modern_epic** » Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:39 am

J-Roc wrote:How about pinch hitting? Does that ever make sense?

Assuming this is a serious question (I didn't read the thread that spawned this post), then yes, but less than you might think at first.

Players who come in to pinch hit actually hit worse than they would when they play a whole game, so whoever is on your bench is really unlikely to be a better hitter then who he is replacing, excepting replacing the pitcher.

That being said, it can be useful in the AL if you have a regular who was being rested that day subbing in for a poor hitter, or if you want to get a righty-lefty match-up (or force a pitching change).

Evermore · Post #13 » by **Evermore** » Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:40 am

I'd rather someone explain why it's not an option worth considering...

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkBnp9vgxls[/youtube]

Evermore · Post #14 » by **Evermore** » Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:41 am

Let's also remember...

There's a difference between a SQUEEZE PLAY...and a SUICIDE SQUEEZE

Evermore · Post #15 » by **Evermore** » Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:51 am

darth_federer wrote:You dont do it with 2 outs because the guy making the play might be thrown out at first

You dont do it with 2 strikes because a bunt attempt that is fouled off is counted as a strike I believe

You also need guys who are actually good at bunting to pull this off

Im pretty sure Evermore is messing around with everybody...

No...

The situation was this...

Top of the 7th...Bautista on 3rd with 1 out...game tied at 5

Rivera and his .150 AVG at the plate

Believing strongly that the squeeze play is an effective way to score a run...I was in favour of it in that situation

For reasons unknown to me...there are those on this forum who feel that play isn't an option

Obviously, the Jays failed to score the run...

Post #16 » by **Schad** » Mon Apr 11, 2011 4:10 am

I love posting a single video of a successful squeeze bunt as evidence that we should do it every bloody time there's a guy on third with less than two outs. A few things, though.

- The guy dropping down the bunt is Noah Lowry, a pitcher. As a pitcher, Noah Lowry attempted quite a few bunts, and spent a considerable amount of time practicing them; he could also handle the bat pretty well. Additionally, while Lowry wasn't a terrible hitter swinging away for a pitcher, he was a terrible hitter against the field...as such, a bunt makes more sense. Encarnacion or Lind? Not so much.

- The guy running home on the play is Nate Schierholtz. Schierholtz has decent speed; Juan Rivera, on the other hand, does not.

- Despite being called upon to bunt frequently, the attempt itself is rather bad; Lowry ends up popping it up. Watch the direction Mussina is traveling when he enters the frame: he would have caught the ball in the air if his initial reaction was in the direction of the ball, rather than coming in. It's one of those cases where **** up paid off for Lowry, because by hitting that lazy pop-up, he got the ball by the pitcher and it gave Schierholtz a great jump.

- Pursuant to the above, Schierholtz began moving home on contact...if Mussina catches that, as he likely should have, it's a double play.

- Taking all this into consideration, note the result: Schierholtz does score, but barely. If Miguel Cairo (the first baseman there, it appears) gets the throw on the third base side, it's an out.

Basically, you've posted a video where most of the conditions for a squeeze are orders of magnitude than the ones you suggest the Jays attempt, and yet it still only succeeds because Miguel Cairo makes a **** throw from 25 feet away.

Post #17 » by **Schad** » Mon Apr 11, 2011 4:15 am

Evermore wrote:
Believing strongly that the squeeze play is an effective way to score a run...I was in favour of it in that situation

For reasons unknown to me...there are those on this forum who feel that play isn't an option

We have explained those "reasons unknown" a good many times. One last try: Juan Rivera cannot bunt. He last attempted a bunt in 2005. In the Arencibia at-bat, we saw what happens when players who cannot bunt attempt to do so: they **** it up badly. Rivera too would have **** it up badly, which means that it was a bad idea.

And your suggestion that we insert a designated bunter is sheer idiocy, because if we'd inserted Mike McCoy there (who is a very good bunter), they'd have pinched the corners down so far that it would have rendered the attempt laughable.

Evermore · Post #18 » by **Evermore** » Mon Apr 11, 2011 4:25 am

Schadenfreude wrote:
Evermore wrote:
Believing strongly that the squeeze play is an effective way to score a run...I was in favour of it in that situation

For reasons unknown to me...there are those on this forum who feel that play isn't an option

We have explained those "reasons unknown" a good many times. One last try: Juan Rivera cannot bunt. He last attempted a bunt in 2005. In the Arencibia at-bat, we saw what happens when players who cannot bunt attempt to do so: they **** it up badly. Rivera too would have **** it up badly, which means that it was a bad idea.

And your suggestion that we insert a designated bunter is sheer idiocy, because if we'd inserted Mike McCoy there (who is a very good bunter), they'd have pinched the corners down so far that it would have rendered the attempt laughable.

We'll just have to agree to disagree...

It would be like arguing whether or not to pull the goalie when down a goal late in the game...

There are plenty of pros and cons one can point out to back their argument

We just have differing philosophical approaches is all...

You think you're right...I think I'm right...

Let's just leave it at that

s e n s i · Post #19 » by **s e n s i** » Mon Apr 11, 2011 4:27 am

Wow. Like Schad's already said...

- Rivera hasn't laid down a bunt in a game since 2005. He does not bunt. You can't just expect a player who hasn't bunted in a game in over 6 years to gently lay one down the third/first baseline, it doesn't work that way.

- If he does attempt to bunt, and Bautista breaks for home on contact, there is a good chance Rivera botches the bunt entirely, and bunts it right back to the pitcher or nibbles it a few feet in front of home plate. There is also a good chance he bunts the ball up into the air. Either way, the chances of one of Rivera and/or Bautista getting out in such a scenario heavily outweigh the chances of Rivera successfully bunting Bautista home for a run, especially considering the fact that Rivera hasn't bunted in years, and probably doesn't practice bunting very often.

- If he bunts it back to the pitcher, the pitcher could easily throw home to get Bautista for the 2nd out. Or if Bautista isn't more than a quarter down the line, the pitcher could easily look Bautista back to 3rd and throw out Rivera at 1st. Even if Rivera doesn't bunt it directly back to the pitcher, since Bautista is going on contact, there is still a more than likely chance he gets caught at the plate...because again, Rivera HASN'T BUNTED IN MORE THAN HALF A DECADE, and it would be egregious to assume he could successfully convert in that scenario.

- Having played rep level baseball for years, I can say with certainty that not everyone can bunt, and that a lot of players are better off swinging for a hit than trying to bunt. As easy as it looks, there is a proper technique to bunting, and while I wouldn't say it's an art, it's certainly not something just any player can do successfully at any given time.

Evermore · Post #20 » by **Evermore** » Mon Apr 11, 2011 4:28 am

Schadenfreude wrote:I love posting a single video of a successful squeeze bunt as evidence that we should do it every bloody time there's a guy on third with less than two outs. A few things, though.

- The guy dropping down the bunt is Noah Lowry, a pitcher. As a pitcher, Noah Lowry attempted quite a few bunts, and spent a considerable amount of time practicing them; he could also handle the bat pretty well. Additionally, while Lowry wasn't a terrible hitter swinging away for a pitcher, he was a terrible hitter against the field...as such, a bunt makes more sense. Encarnacion or Lind? Not so much.

- The guy running home on the play is Nate Schierholtz. Schierholtz has decent speed; Juan Rivera, on the other hand, does not.

- Despite being called upon to bunt frequently, the attempt itself is rather bad; Lowry ends up popping it up. Watch the direction Mussina is traveling when he enters the frame: he would have caught the ball in the air if his initial reaction was in the direction of the ball, rather than coming in. It's one of those cases where **** up paid off for Lowry, because by hitting that lazy pop-up, he got the ball by the pitcher and it gave Schierholtz a great jump.

- Pursuant to the above, Schierholtz began moving home on contact...if Mussina catches that, as he likely should have, it's a double play.

- Taking all this into consideration, note the result: Schierholtz does score, but barely. If Miguel Cairo (the first baseman there, it appears) gets the throw on the third base side, it's an out.

Basically, you've posted a video where most of the conditions for a squeeze are orders of magnitude than the ones you suggest the Jays attempt, and yet it still only succeeds because Miguel Cairo makes a **** throw from 25 feet away.

Glad you loved it...but I chose that particular video for a reason

It was a poor bunt...

It was hit right at the 1st baseman who barehanded the ball and made a strong accurate throw to the plate

And still the runner was safe...

A well executed squeeze play is almost impossible to defend against...

Rivera's speed is irrelevant