Chris Paul or Dwight Howard or Deron Wiliams

[NextToJack]

Chris Paul/Deron Williams or Dwight Howard.

I take Chris Paul or Deron over D12 at an instant. Through my personal survey of 25-35 friends of varying Laker fandom and some strangers at bars. Most prefer Dwight. But a fair chunk believe in Paul. And to be fair Deron is a comparable talent. Anytime i refer to paul his name can be interchangeable with Deron Williams. The only real difference between them is height and maybe defensive abilities.

Here is something I have thought long and hard about. After countless conversations of people wanting Dwight. Referencing exactly what is mostly known about the triangle offense(TO). It does not require a traditional pass first pg who would avg 4+ assists let alone the 10+ chris paul averages for his career. Yes the obvious is true.

But in all reality the Lakers DO NOT RUN THE TRIANGLE OFFENSE 100% of the time. The actual % is debatable depending on a game by game basis. Especially at the end of close games. The lakers primary offense is the TO. I will point out THREE simple scenarios where Chris Pauls assisting talents would be extremely beneficial.

1. Fast Break/Transition plays.
Easy basket are had at the end of fast breaks. More transition baskets are a statistic all teams strive for. Just as the Lakers do. I don't have the actual numbers but wouldn't be surprised to see the Lakers no where near the top of the league. Back to my point, Chris Paul leading the break will lead to an improvement in this department.

Side note: Ariza is another player who raised our transition stats from the finishers perspective. Im assuming. He was an exceptional player to fill the wing on the break and could finish. We dont have many players who can finish at the rack while on the run.

2. Pick and Roll.
Bread and butter plays at the end of quarters or after a timeout. All teams in the NBA break from their primary offense to run pick/break and roll to generate crunch time points. Especially when closing games out. Think Steve Nash and Amare. Shaq and Kobe. Wade and Lebron. Every team runs this play with or without stars. Its the most basic play and very successful. Chris Paul with his elite pg talents could run many variations of the P&R with anybody. Chris Paul to Kobe. Chris Paul to Pau. Awesome. Not only must you be a good P&R passer, you have to be able to hit a jump shot off the P&R to keep teams honest and CP3 is an excellent shooter with improving 3pt range.

side note:Teams or players who defend well against he pick and roll probably win more games than teams who don't.

3. Improve the triangle offense. 2 parts to this scenario. 1. PG creator 2. Finisher/Slasher/3pt Shooter(technically this can be broken up into 2/3 parts)

3.1.There is no sample of an elite pg playing within the TO. But its possible. Denying the TO Paul the opportunity because of its long history of mediocre to below avg pgs being successful. Means the success should only be better if a better player were to play the position. Common sense dictates improvement. Enter Chris Paul or Deron. Or any above avg pg. Simple.

3.2. When he isn't creating he can slash and finish with the best of them. 48% 49% 50% fg over the last three seasons makes it clear he can score with efficiency. Player with good catching and handling hands in traffic who can finish. But his height can be a disadvantage of times. But so what, he is chris paul.

3.3 Decent 3 point shooter. Paul has improved every season since his rookie year % wise. Except the in 08 where his 3pt% was .364 and the season prior was .369. This season he is shooting .409.

Side note: The TO does not require excellent 3 point shooters to be effective. Having 3pt shooters is like icing or sprinkles on the cake. I blame steve Kerr and Craig Hodges. They were known to be excellent shooters for Phil Jackson while in Chicago. But Jordan and Pippen were not great 3fg% shooters. On a whole the Championship Bulls early years did not employ any 3 points specialist and the team overall shot very little or poorly from behind the arc. Only the 95 and 96 bulls were instance with their long range stroke. Jordan, Pippen and Kerr showed extreme spikes in those years.

side note 2: Another reason jordans fg% is far greater than kobes is because of his limited 3 point shooting. Kobe relies on his 3 pointers far more than Jordan ever did.

My point is he can do it all on offense.

In closing, Chris Paul offensive talents would greatly benefit the lakers and the triangle offense in more ways than being an elite pg. He is an elite offensive player period.

I could elaborate more but this should be enough for now. This was originally written as a response in the Bynum vs Howard thread. But am turning into its own topic.

Here is the original link. viewtopic.php?f=19&t=1105073

To keep my Dwight Howard rebuttal simple. I don't like his offensive game. And we have Pau. I could do without Bynum. And Im not saying get rid of Bynum.

[Gek]

Didn't read the whole post, but got up to talk of the triangle... we won't be running the triangle for the next 10 years.

[Asianiac_24]

I'd take Dwight and trade Bynum. With Kobe we really don't need another ball dominant point guard on our team

[The_Trade_Seer]

Nice, well thought out post "NextToJack" ... however, I think you are missing the #1 reason lakers fans would rather trade for D12 than CP3 ... the reason is because we would be trading Bynum and would need a starting C in return, not a PG.

If our trade chip were a wing player than your arguments would make sense, but when our trade chip is a young stud center, we will want a young stud even better center in return, not a PG.

[That Nicka]

Dwight Howard and not close.

[RamonSessions7]

Dwight Howard and not close.

[LAKESHOW]

without phil jackson, build the middle. those are the guys that can ride through any offensive system change we will have around here.

[stunnar0b]

shyt at this point i think i rather take d rose over everybody

[richboy]

Great centers win titles. Not great PGs. The conversation could end right there. Why would anyone take a PG over a dominate center? Have you not seen the history of this league?

Another reason why it would be stupid. PGs are now a dime a dozen. Derrick Rose might win MVP and its debatable if he is even the best PG in the league. Great PGs are coming into the league so fast that some teams are going to have to pass up on the next great PG because they already have 1 or 2 on there roster.

On the flip side its Dwight Howard and then who is next? Dwight destroys the competition at his position every night. Chris Paul is a great player but he may not be able to out perform Russell Westbrook over the next 10 years.

The final reason is go watch the replay of the Bulls and Magic game from this morning. Then go watch a replay of the Bulls vs Magic games earlier in the year. Dwight Howard effects every position on the floor. Derrick Rose was not scoring 40 points and driving for easy lay-ups when Dwight was playing. Dwight took Rose out of 2 games last year and Rose learned that he better be settling for a lot of jumpers when Howard is in the game. Jameer Nelson can play decent defense when he has a beast like Dwight behind him.

I think the biggest problem with your argument though is history has shown you need a great big man and PGs are not nearly as important. I think one of the reasons why the Bulls can be beaten early in the playoffs is because they rely so much on a PG. I could easily see a Jimmer working in the triangle offense. I can see a Raymond Felton, Holiday, Devin Harris, Andre Miller, etc working in the Laker offense. Do you really need the best PG in the league to run an offense that takes the ball out of the PGs hands.

You said no elite PG played in the triangle offense. Gary Payton averaged 21 and 9 his last year with the Sonics. He came to the Lakers and suddenly was a 5 assist per game player who was pretty much asked to do spot up jumpers. The only PG that would probably be good playing in the triangle is Jason Kidd. Mainly because he the only high assist PG that doesn't run his teams half court offense. You bring in Chris Paul or Deron Williams you should just dump the triangle.

On the other hand you run the triple post offense and if you could add the best post player in the game you only make the triangle that more dominate.

[Dr Aki]

assuming we're trading bynum/filler for one of these guys... these players are too good not to integrate and alter the triangle to better fit their skillsets. the triangle is good at emphasising a team's strengths and with CP3/deron, the triangle will still look absolutely fantastic, it would be like having a real 5 headed monster on the court

you take dwight if you want to destroy the league. but don't mind having that hole at PG (hey its worked so far...). the arguments are already there, no need to rehash them

seeing as this is a debate, im going to argue (for the sake of arguing) FOR CP3/deron, and fitting them into the triangle.

you take CP3/deron if you take the ball out of kobe's hands and turn him into a very rich man's rip hamilton. kobe's good enough to play without the ball, heck, with CP3/deron feeding him, he'd average 25-30 ppg for the remainder of his career on 60% shooting. but the days of the kobe iso would be practically over.

another advantage is alleviating kobe of lead guard duties. its a MAJOR upgrade at the point. kobe moves to the wing, and generates 75% of his points being 1-2 steps ahead of his defender instead of having to work so hard, and we've seen how fantastic kobe moves and how infinitely easier it is for kobe to score coming off a weakside curl or flashing across the lane for a FT jumper.

kobe's definitely good enough to feed the bigs when defenses have to rotate to limit his effectiveness, so whilst kobe isn't getting into the lane as much as even a season ago, having deron/CP3 would definitely earn him easier looks and increase his effectiveness. you only need to take one look at how boston run ray allen off screens all the time to be convinced at how much pain kobe will inflict upon defenses when he's being fed like a big man (should).

at worst kobe will look like elgin baylor on crack (and modern medicine)

i would prefer deron over CP3 of course, he's huge, he can't be stopped getting into the lane (not with how well spacing usually is) and he's an incredibly willing passer and he's capable of role-reversing with kobe just to add that additional dimension to the lakers' offense that we might never see again in the history of the triangle offense.

can you guys imagine a defense trying to deal with an 1-2 two-man game? if you thought kobe screening for fisher won game 3, how badly would we abuse defenses if kobe was getting fed like amare on the roll?

then there's the defensive end, and instant elimination the one giant hole in your defense that will force teams to looking for a different way into the heart of the lakers defense.

at worst, we are prolonging kobe's superstar effectiveness for 1-3 seasons, and a better than 25% chance that kobe breaks KAJ's record for most regular season points (if kobe plays til 38).

[LA Forever]

Superman (the second version).

[CowsMoo]

Build around a big man, despite the league shifting to a more guard centric game.

[richboy]

assuming we're trading bynum/filler for one of these guys... these players are too good not to integrate and alter the triangle to better fit their skillsets. the triangle is good at emphasising a team's strengths and with CP3/deron, the triangle will still look absolutely fantastic, it would be like having a real 5 headed monster on the court

you take dwight if you want to destroy the league. but don't mind having that hole at PG (hey its worked so far...). the arguments are already there, no need to rehash them

seeing as this is a debate, im going to argue (for the sake of arguing) FOR CP3/deron, and fitting them into the triangle.

you take CP3/deron if you take the ball out of kobe's hands and turn him into a very rich man's rip hamilton. kobe's good enough to play without the ball, heck, with CP3/deron feeding him, he'd average 25-30 ppg for the remainder of his career on 60% shooting. but the days of the kobe iso would be practically over.

another advantage is alleviating kobe of lead guard duties. its a MAJOR upgrade at the point. kobe moves to the wing, and generates 75% of his points being 1-2 steps ahead of his defender instead of having to work so hard, and we've seen how fantastic kobe moves and how infinitely easier it is for kobe to score coming off a weakside curl or flashing across the lane for a FT jumper.

kobe's definitely good enough to feed the bigs when defenses have to rotate to limit his effectiveness, so whilst kobe isn't getting into the lane as much as even a season ago, having deron/CP3 would definitely earn him easier looks and increase his effectiveness. you only need to take one look at how boston run ray allen off screens all the time to be convinced at how much pain kobe will inflict upon defenses when he's being fed like a big man (should).

at worst kobe will look like elgin baylor on crack (and modern medicine)

i would prefer deron over CP3 of course, he's huge, he can't be stopped getting into the lane (not with how well spacing usually is) and he's an incredibly willing passer and he's capable of role-reversing with kobe just to add that additional dimension to the lakers' offense that we might never see again in the history of the triangle offense.

can you guys imagine a defense trying to deal with an 1-2 two-man game? if you thought kobe screening for fisher won game 3, how badly would we abuse defenses if kobe was getting fed like amare on the roll?

then there's the defensive end, and instant elimination the one giant hole in your defense that will force teams to looking for a different way into the heart of the lakers defense.

at worst, we are prolonging kobe's superstar effectiveness for 1-3 seasons, and a better than 25% chance that kobe breaks KAJ's record for most regular season points (if kobe plays til 38).

Sounds like your changing the offense since you have Kobe running off screens and running PNRs.Sound like were running the Boston offense. 25-30 a night. Are you serious? I personally don't think he would have nearly as much success as your thinking. Ray Allen does that aspect better than Kobe Bryant and he averages 15. How is Kobe averaging 25-30 coming off screens like Ray Allen or Reggie Miller.

[FisherSucks]

Deron Williams.

I'd rather have Williams+Bynum over Dwight+someone else.

[shobe_81]

Judging by your username, no one here cares what you have to say.

[Danny Darko]

^no going after posters. Posts are fair game, but not posters.

[Dr Aki]

Sounds like your changing the offense since you have Kobe running off screens and running PNRs.Sound like were running the Boston offense. 25-30 a night. Are you serious? I personally don't think he would have nearly as much success as your thinking. Ray Allen does that aspect better than Kobe Bryant and he averages 15. How is Kobe averaging 25-30 coming off screens like Ray Allen or Reggie Miller.

as you might tell, i'm a huge triangle nut, having kobe bryant playing in a different role just had me foaming at the mouth at the possibilities

the thing with the triangle. it incorporates all of that and more. the thing with kobe is he can pretty much play all the positions that you have in the triangle and that gives you options upon options upon options to exploit.

kobe loves running down the floor and occupying the midpost and being the center, kobe loves being the lead-guard and calling (usually) gasol to elbow screen for him, but kobe is most effective when he receives the ball closer to the rim without someone stuck to him like napalm

having deron would mean kobe plays less lead guard (as he is now), and more off-guard (ala ray allen) or forward (ala durant), and more specifically weakside forward (ala 2004 malone)

we're not talking about running the same sets. although some of those sets might seem the same.

its also not as if there's another large dominant offensive force greater than kobe on this team, ray allen sees a usage rate of ~18% as an off-guard with rondo setting him up with PP/KG as options, whereas kobe registers ~33% of possessions (as a lead guard) with only gasol to seriously eat into his shot count and that wouldnt deter kobe from shooting anyway.

that isn't to say kobe will be run off screens all game long, he'll still touch the ball in the confines of the ball movement within the triangle and make decisions, but instead with easier decisions to make

not the individual triple threat type decisions; but more "WTFBBQ im open 12-15 ft from the basket and i've got a driving lane type" decisions.

the thing with kobe is he's going to dominate the ball, if you can't change the man's habits, at least make kobe as efficient as you can. i just can't see why kobe can't raise his efficiency, average more ppg and prolong his career at the same time.

[richboy]

Sounds like your changing the offense since you have Kobe running off screens and running PNRs.Sound like were running the Boston offense. 25-30 a night. Are you serious? I personally don't think he would have nearly as much success as your thinking. Ray Allen does that aspect better than Kobe Bryant and he averages 15. How is Kobe averaging 25-30 coming off screens like Ray Allen or Reggie Miller.

as you might tell, i'm a huge triangle nut, having kobe bryant playing in a different role just had me foaming at the mouth at the possibilities

the thing with the triangle. it incorporates all of that and more. the thing with kobe is he can pretty much play all the positions that you have in the triangle and that gives you options upon options upon options to exploit.

kobe loves running down the floor and occupying the midpost and being the center, kobe loves being the lead-guard and calling (usually) gasol to elbow screen for him, but kobe is most effective when he receives the ball closer to the rim without someone stuck to him like napalm

having deron would mean kobe plays less lead guard (as he is now), and more off-guard (ala ray allen) or forward (ala durant), and more specifically weakside forward (ala 2004 malone)

we're not talking about running the same sets. although some of those sets might seem the same.

its also not as if there's another large dominant offensive force greater than kobe on this team, ray allen sees a usage rate of ~18% as an off-guard with rondo setting him up with PP/KG as options, whereas kobe registers ~33% of possessions (as a lead guard) with only gasol to seriously eat into his shot count and that wouldnt deter kobe from shooting anyway.

that isn't to say kobe will be run off screens all game long, he'll still touch the ball in the confines of the ball movement within the triangle and make decisions, but instead with easier decisions to make

not the individual triple threat type decisions; but more "WTFBBQ im open 12-15 ft from the basket and i've got a driving lane type" decisions.

the thing with kobe is he's going to dominate the ball, if you can't change the man's habits, at least make kobe as efficient as you can. i just can't see why kobe can't raise his efficiency, average more ppg and prolong his career at the same time.

Your still going to have Gasol. Deron is a 20 point scorer. There just no way Kobe going to be scoring 25-30 a night. Especially since Kobe's free throw attempts are already going down playing the style he has now. He tries to play like Ray Allen he be lucky to get 20 a game.

If you put a Deron in a triangle he pretty much going to be asked to be a scorer. The Triangle has no need for a ball dominate PG. I think Deron could play in the triangle but he would be looking to score more in the triangle than he does now.

[Jase]

Dwight Howard and not close.

This. Easier to get a star pg than a star C.

[NextToJack]

Im not sayin. Im just sayin.

*reverse jinx is on*