Would you Keep Bryan (with impassioned case for keeping him)

[raps95]

Okay, like Bryan Colangelo or not, I think that one thing everybody would agree on is that he would not have much trouble finding another GM job if he wanted to.

Given that, I think this idea of a two year offer would be nothing more than a slap in the face. Sure, he could have some kind of side deal with Tannenbaum, but why would he stay and work in a city where the majority owner (for as long as the Teachers are in, anyway) clearly doesn't want him around? If I were him and had his kind of options I wouldn't be willing to throw my reputation out the window (as he would be by taking a 2 yr contract) on the off chance that Tannenbaum winds up being able to gain control. He##, once the word leaked out last month or whenever it was about the teachers guy being against my re-hiring it might have sealed the deal on my leaving if I were him. Unless the Pension fund was out of ownership by the time we were negotiating.

To all of the people blindly hating BC, it's a marathon, not a sprint. Where were all of you calling for BC to be fired after his first season? Hmmm, you were strangely silent then. Now, after a couple of years with attempts made at building around Bosh that failed he has started in a new direction. Why are you not willing to try and wait it out and see if the guy who built one good team and one great (PHX) team and won executive of the year twice can turn this around?

Especially when he seems, clearly, to be on the right track.

Prospects for current roster? Check. Demar, Ed, Jerryd, James Johnson aren't an MJ and Pippen base or anything, but they all appear to be solid players that you would have no problem having on your team.
High draft pick coming up? Check.
Cap flexibility? We aren't last year's Heat in terms of having two players under contract or anything, but we definitely are not in some kind of horrid salary situation. And don't try and tell me that Andrea's contract is some kind of millstone around the neck of the franchise. In this day's NBA a 10 mill contract for a guy who has scored 20+ppg is eminently moveable. If you, for some insane reason, think that it is then I think Hedo's contract would like to have a chat with you.

Based on all of that what, exactly is it that makes you think we're so clearly on the wrong track and headed towards death, doom, and destruction?

Sure, there have been mistakes, primarily the transactions for Hedo and Jermaine, but in both of those cases he fixed the problem, literally, in less than a year. Letting Bosh leave was a mistake as well in hindsight, but, as many point out, when we were exiting the all-star break ready to make a push for home court in the playoffs not many people were calling for the trade to happen. Also, where are all the Cuban bashers that should be out there for him letting a two-time mvp walk? Sometimes, stuff happens.

Basically, what I don't really get is what, exactly, is the alternative that the BC haters are putting out there that is going to be so much better? In my mind, there are two formulas for success and every team should be pursuing one of them.

1) If you have a transcendent player like Kobe/Shaq/Tim Duncan you always, always, always, keep them (if you can) and build around them.
2) Failing having that transcendent player, you have to build a competitive *team*. Maybe built around a good/very good player, but still a *team* is what you need to build. KG in Minn versus KG in Boston is a perfect example of an unsuccessful and a successful version of this approach. The recent good Pistons teams, Riley's 'Zo-based Heat and Knicks teams are also good examples.

So, how do you go about building these teams?

Option one is totally beyond our control. Unless we somehow become a destination of choice for players, like the Miami of the north or something, getting that kind of player won't, likely, have anything to do with any skill of our GM. It will require the ping pong balls to bounce the right way in the right draft year.

So, that leaves option two. How to best go about option two? Let's look at the track records of the best teams in the league and try to copy them since they would, appear, to have the perfect gameplan.

Chicago
Good now, but have absolutely suuuuuucked for a good part of the last decade and benefited tremendously from lucking into Derrick Rose when they were already not an absolutely horrible team.
So, would you hire Gar Forman instead of Bryan? Since none of the major drafts which are the basis for the success of this team took place on his watch it would be hard to use the success of the current team as a compelling reason to take him on.

Miami
An incredibly unique situation that has never happened before and won't likely happen again, totally irreproducible. Still, I would be willing to accept that Pat Riley would be a pretty good GM and would be a step up for us. FYI though, despite the fact that I'm saying he's good, he's not some kind of miracle worker. If Pat Riley was in the exact same situation last summer but he was the President of the Milwaukee Bucks instead of the Miami Heat there's no way in H-E-L-L he would have got *either* one of Bosh or Lebron, and he probably would have lost Wade too. Now, he probably would never *have* been GM of Milwaukee either, but that's another argument:)

Boston
Danny Ainge has had some good success the last few years because of a few good moves that he made in assembling this current team. His winning % in his first four seasons though? 42%. Bryan's winning percentage with the Raptors that you all want to fire him for? 45%. Eliminate this obvious tanking year? 49%

Orlando
Otis Smith? Really? Now that I look at the over-all record it does seem like he hasn't actually done that badly. Always nice to have the best defensive centre in basketball to build around though. And, in case you didn't know, Dwight wasn't his draft. That was under the previous regime. Also, how did that letting Hedo go and trading for Vince thing work out?

LA
Good before, good now. Three years in between, after Shaq left and before Pau arrived? .492 winning percentage. Almost the identical winning percentage that you want to fire Bryan for. Also, I'd subtract a not insignificant number of points from his resume due to him having, seemingly, the destination city of choice for NBA players to play in.

Detroit
What's that you say? Why is one of the worst teams in the league included on this list? Because if you go back two or three years ago Joe Dumars was widely considered an incredibly good GM and John Hammond was thought of as another genius, just waiting to get his opportunity. Fast forward a few years. Detroit and Milwaukee both suck to about the same degree and both Dumars and Hammond are being questioned. Ben Gordon and Charlie V? Really?

Oklahoma City
Sam Presti does seem like he's got his head on straight here. Though, a case could definitely be made that he has had some high draft picks and may have lucked into this generation's Kobe instead of its Sam Bowie. Still, those are "if's" and if you're only going to evaluate based on performance I would definitely give him my stamp of approval as a replacement for Bryan.

Dallas
I don't follow them enough to know who the heck can really take the most credit for the success of the team due to Mark Cuban's, seemingly, overpowering hand being in everything. But, since Mark Cuban took over in 2000 they have averaged 56 wins for a winning percentage 69%. So, if you can figure out who's responsible for this success, please sign me up.

San Antonio
You want Dallas' success *plus* three championships during the same time window along with a first place overall finish this year? Go get us RC Buford. Since he took over in 2002 they have averaged 57.5 wins for a winning percentage of 70%. Of course, they have had TD for that whole time and the four years before that they also won 70% of their games so....?

So, this mile-long post fully digested, I would like to see somebody make a logical argument for why we would get rid of BC. Is he RC, the Cuban Frankenstein GM, or Riley? No, he isn't. Is his record as good as Kupchak or Presti, even? No. But why don't you go give any of those guys a call and let me know how you make out?

So, failing getting those GM's, you are looking at the second tier like Ainge, Gar Forman, Otis Smith, and Joe Dumars. These gentlemen, however, while also unavailable right now, have also demonstrated that they are eminently capable of fielding some questionable teams (ainge, dumars) and/or have not really accomplished anything more than Bryan has in his career (Forman, Smith).

So, why would you be willing to throw your team into flux just for a shot at, seemingly, the same level of performance? When, if you accept my Bryan=these guys argument, there's no reason to believe he couldn't bring a championship to town just like Ainge and Dumars did? In spite of their clearly demonstrated deficiencies.

BTW, if you choose "Replace him", can you try justify it with a logical argument and outline what, exactly, your alternative is?

[Reignman]

First of all, when he gets his contract it'll be longer than 2 years, I'm almost certain of that.

Secondly, I think a lot of people are rightfully dissapointed in the job he has done over the last few years, we're basically in a worse position now than when he starter.

For me, I'm hoping he has learnt his lesson and you've pointed out some of the things that indicate that. I'm down with giving him a shot to clean up his own mess and have faith that he's now building a team that Toronto can be proud of.

I think the one thing that has many people concerned is Bargnani's status while BC is here. I'm pretty sure BC will move him soon enough but I can also understand why many people feel otherwise.

That's really the main concern from what I've seen. If the fans had a guarantee that BC would trade Bargs I'm pretty sure 80% of the people that want him out would change their minds.

[Basketball_Jones]

To all of the people blindly hating BC.......... Now, after a couple of years

Stopped reading after this.

[Lawnmower Man]

Okay, like Bryan Colangelo or not, I think that one thing everybody would agree on is that he would not have much trouble finding another GM job if he wanted to.

Unless his dad is doing the hiring, I wouldn't be so sure of this.

Being run out of town in your last GM gig where you essentially spent five years trying to make a Ryan Anderson clone into a superstar doesn't look good on your resume.

I do, however, believe that Bryan has the ability to correct this mistakes and build a winner. I'm just not convinced his vision has changed (re: Bargs, no defense uptempo style, etc). If he truly is dedicated to a rebuild with traditional positions, then I think he could do a decent job.

[Lionel Messi]

First of all, when he gets his contract it'll be longer than 2 years, I'm almost certain of that.

Secondly, I think a lot of people are rightfully dissapointed in the job he has done over the last few years, we're basically in a worse position now than when he starter.

For me, I'm hoping he has learnt his lesson and you've pointed out some of the things that indicate that. I'm down with giving him a shot to clean up his own mess and have faith that he's now building a team that Toronto can be proud of.

I think the one thing that has many people concerned is Bargnani's status while BC is here. I'm pretty sure BC will move him soon enough but I can also understand why many people feel otherwise.

That's really the main concern from what I've seen. If the fans had a guarantee that BC would trade Bargs I'm pretty sure 80% of the people that want him out would change their minds.

I feel almost exactly the same way. While the previous 5 years have been a failure (except for 06-07), I still think he has enough GMing ability to fix his mistakes and get this team headed in the right direction.
He knows how to make deals, the big ones just haven't worked out for him (JO, Marion, Hedo) and he hasn't provided nearly enough roster balance.
The team right now looks like it is being built properly. We have 3 promising young players in DeMar, Ed and Amir and then he has gone after young players hoping he might end up with a "diamond in the rough" type situation (JJ, Bayless, Ajinca).
JJ looks to be a good role player in the future, Bayless is hard to gauge and Ajinca is a scrub, but I like that he went after these types of players.

I'm still somewhat disappointed that he couldn't unload Jose or at least Barbosa at the deadline though.

[Enfur]

BC got **** in the ass so hard on both JO deals I don't know how he hasn't been fired. Then to sign Turkoglu was a huge insult to everyone. Not to mention faking Jose Calderon's injury 2 seasons ago to mask the horrible signing was the ultimate insult. This guy's a scumbag and should never GM another NBA franchise. That's not even including the Kapono deal, drafting Bargnani and talking **** about Bosh on departure, a guy who put in 7 hard working years for us. BC is one of the biggest scumbags in the NBA right now.

[Volcano]

Didn't read most of it. I'm okay with bringing him back, but he should have been doing this 5 years ago when he first came. He almost brought in quick fixes that would have kept us as a treadmill team at the beginning of this season (Chandler/Barnes/Diaw). The fact that Bargs still hasn't been traded is a huge joke. He should have been traded in his first season.

[Raps in 4]

Replace him with a rookie GM or Pritchard. If neither is an option, then keep him.

[J-Roc]

Blah blah blah. If he doesn't trade his one PF Andrea Bargnani, then he's doomed to the same mistakes he made in the Bosh era.

[Indeed]

Again, this has been discussed for a few times, I would like to know what option we have.

I don't think a rookie GM will do good for us, maybe Pritchard, but I don't see anyone can make a big difference. We can't attract FA here, which is always a big problem for being a GM here.

[Callaway]

Respect the effort made here, but...

[RaptorReloaded]

I agree with Riegnman. My only fear with BC is his obsession for Andrea. I actualy liked the J.O trade. TJ was my fave player on the team but after the injury he was never the same. Moving for J.O was a high risk high reward deal and I liked the fact we sort of had two allstar forwards in our front court. That year chris webber and some of the NBA pannel had us pegged as the dark horse in the east. It was pretty exciting. What pissed me off though was trading him to Miami then signing Turk. BC is pretty much the reason there is a big three in Miami.

[Alfred]

Respect the effort made here, but...

If you didn't read, just don't post.

[plainballing]

There's a lot of thread on BC already. Just use one of them...

[raps95]

To all of the people blindly hating BC.......... Now, after a couple of years

Stopped reading after this.

Hey, I did say in the subject that it was an impassioned case.

To your apparent issue with the "couple of years" point. Did you want him fired after year 1? If not, then, you can really only complain about his performance in years 2-4.

If I give you that I chose my words improperly and it is actually "a few" years instead of "a couple", will you read the rest of the post and try to put forward a viable alternative?

[Callaway]

If you didn't read, just don't post.

Thanks for the advice...I'll factor that in next time another similar thread is made.

[raps95]

To the numerous concerns about his attachment to Andrea I would say that I, personally, have no such worries.
TJ Ford didn't work, gone.
Jermaine didn't work, gone.
Hedo didn't work, gone.

All in either less than a year or, in TJ's case, in less than a year from when he started being a problem. And all of three of those are 100% Bryan's cross to bear. If he had some kind of concern about making moves that call into question his judgment (drafting Andrea) then why would have been so quick to pull the trigger in those other three situations but not here?

Does Andrea need to be traded? Maybe. I honestly don't think I have the required basketball knowledge to make that call. I can see merit to both sides of the argument. I do believe it's far from the black and white argument many people on her try to make it out to be.

If Bryan hasn't traded him it's because it is not something that he has deemed would benefit team yet. Whether that means he just hasn't liked the offers he has received, or he sees more potential for development and doesn't want to trade him yet, I don't know. But I really don't believe that it's for anything other than a basketball-related reason since TJ, Jermaine, and Hedo clearly show he has no history of holding onto pieces just because he is the one who acquired them.

[sanity]

You're comparing apples to oranges.

The makeups of those other teams you've listed had entirely different philosophies behind their construction.

Maybe Bryan has somewhat turned the corner from his initial "I'll change way basketball is being played with a bunch of finesse sissy players", but it in no way should that ever excuse past years of failure. The results speaks for themselves... Its similar to holding onto the idea that Bargnani will turn into a more defensive-able basketball player. Sure, it can happen, but is it fair to allow the team to suck in the process for another couple years to see? Bryan coming back isn't fair to the organization and if any thing, gives him a greater margin for error because it would be made clear that to MLSE there isn't an alternative to him.

Kapono signing
JO signing
Marion/Banks trade (sending our 1st round pick with O'neal)
Turkoglu
Getting value for Bosh - a last ditch effort to sign him to the max, then bash him to the media

I'm sure he wouldn't have lasted long on any other organization

[KingKover]

I am a Colangelo supporter but i am severely disappointed in the way he's handled the Bargnani debacle. If he trades him I will give him another chance. If we continue forward with Bargnani then I will have given up all hope. Also I'd like to see him trade Calderon as well. I've never seen another player get the lee way that Bargnani does and not be held accountable what so ever. I've had it with Bargnani, as long as he is here I will have trouble being a raptor fan.

[raps95]

Didn't read most of it. I'm okay with bringing him back, but he should have been doing this 5 years ago when he first came. He almost brought in quick fixes that would have kept us as a treadmill team at the beginning of this season (Chandler/Barnes/Diaw). The fact that Bargs still hasn't been traded is a huge joke. He should have been traded in his first season.

So, this first season of Bargnani's that you're referring to. That was the one where he came over as a highly skilled seven footer and was runner up for rookie of the year? That's when it was best for us to just cut bait on him?

At this point in time with many more years of evidence I'm willing to accept there is some merit to the idea of trading him. After year 1 though? Seems a bit reactionary to say the least. Especially since it seems to me that he was also one of our better players in that playoff season too.

To your treadmill point, I think it was a calculated risk, not some attempt to just "make do" and keep us going on a treadmill. Chandler was expiring this year and would (maybe) have been that perfect match to cover up for Bargnani's obvious deficiencies. This was a perfect opportunity to find that out. To me, we still don't have that answer, and that might be part of the reason Bargnani is still around. Because BC doesn't feel that he has, yet, put him in that *perfect* situation for him where he maximizes his strengths and minimizes his weaknesses.

Plus, Diaw was expiring a year earlier than Calderon. So, all in, this may have delayed our full on tanking by a year if it hadn't worked out, but it by no means would have tied our hands for the next three to four years or anything.

Again, it goes back to my marathon/sprint comment. If you take a long-term view of things, the net downside of this (delaying tank by a year) was outweighed by the potential net upside of discovering that Bargnani matched with a true 7-footer who does nothing but block and rebound was a killer combination. I'm not saying that *would* have happened, but when you take the big picture view it was a risk worth taking.