Kobe's stats: With Shaq vs Post-Shaq

[Imadogg]

I just looked up Kobe's pts/reb/ast numbers and %s for his career, when he played with Shaq (96-97 til 03-04), and after Shaq (04-05 til now). I looked up regular season and playoffs numbers so we can see what difference there is.

Since the playoffs are beginning in a couple of days, here's his playoff numbers:

Career - Playoffs:
198 games played, 39.4mpg
25.5ppg, 5.2rpg, 4.8apg
44.8%FG, 33.7%3pt, 81.5%FT

Shaq-Era - Playoffs:
119 games played, 38.3mpg
22.6ppg, 4.8rpg, 4.4apg
43.4%FG, 32.3%3pt, 79.2%FT

Post-Shaq - Playoffs:
79 games played, 41.2mpg
29.8ppg, 5.7rpg, 5.4apg
46.7%FG, 35%3pt, 84.4%FT

What do you notice there? For the haters out there who say stuff like "Shaq made Kobe look good blah blah he's worse without Shaq blah blah", you have some numbers now. He shot pretty poorly overall while Shaq was still around, and is shooting a much better near-47% after Shaq.

Here's a link to Imadoggydogg's Bball Blog if you wanna check out the regular season stats as well
http://imadogg.tumblr.com/post/46299162 ... -post-shaq


Thoughts/comments/questions? I can look up more if you guys want. Figured this would be interesting enough to post.

[crimsonkb24]

Everybody should know that his postshaq stats are better. His peak was postshaq. In addition, he didnt play that well overall in his first years, so nothing new here

[Boognish]

He was but a young wart-hog

[semi-sentient]

Did you include Kobe's numbers from his first two seasons when he barely played? If so, then the Shaq-era stats are going to be very much skewed.

[Imadogg]

Everybody should know that his postshaq stats are better. His peak was postshaq. In addition, he didnt play that well overall in his first years, so nothing new here

Agreed and maybe you knew the numbers off the top of your head but I certainly didn't.

He was but a young wart-hog

He has blossomed right before our eyes

Did you include Kobe's numbers from his first two seasons when he barely played? If so, then the Shaq-era stats are going to be very much skewed.

Of course I included them. I wouldn't say the numbers are "skewed"... I know what you mean, but when we're looking at his career numbers, the first 2 years are included. I can easily look up the numbers without those years but that's why they are included, because they exist.

[semi-sentient]

They exist, but they aren't very representative of Kobe's play with Shaq and they bring his numbers down. When he came off the bench those first two years his minutes and role in the offense were very limited, so his numbers were downright awful and take away from the real picture.

I think it would be better to use Kobe's numbers as a starter during the Shaq-era.

Shaq-Era - Playoffs: (all games)
119 games played, 38.3mpg
22.6ppg, 4.8rpg, 4.4apg
43.4%FG, 32.3%3pt, 79.2%FT

Shaq-Era - Playoffs: (as a starter)
99 games played, 42.5mpg
25.5, 5.5rpg, 5.1apg
43.6%FG, 33.1%3pt, 79.5%FT

As you can see, his numbers jump across the board. Something else that gets neglected here is the fact that defenses were generally much better in the Kobe/Shaq era, or at least in terms of the physicality allowed prior to the 2004-05 season. The league as a whole was far less efficient than from 2004-05 onwards as evidenced below using TS%:

Code: Select all

2010-11: 0.541
2009-10: 0.543
2008-09: 0.544
2007-08: 0.540
2006-07: 0.541
2005-06: 0.536
2004-05: 0.529
2003-04: 0.516
2002-03: 0.519
2001-02: 0.520
2000-01: 0.518
1999-00: 0.523
1998-99: 0.511

In short, comparing efficiency from one era to another is kind of a moot point. The NBA has never seen this level of efficiency, and that's despite the fact that there aren't many dominant (efficient) bigs in the game like in years past. The rules have been changed to favor slashers and that's why we're seeing guys like LeBron, Durant, Wade, Kobe, Iverson, etc. having some fantastically (is that even a word?) efficient years. I can only imagine how much more efficient Kobe would have been from 1999-00 to 2003-04 had he been able to play under the same set of rules as today. His free throws would have sky-rocketed and that would have had a big impact on his overall efficiency.

Remember back when it seemed like every team we faced in the playoffs had two solid bigs in the paint ready to commit a hard foul (Robinson/Duncan, Sabonis/Sheed, Divac/Webber, etc.)? Those days are gone (outside of the Perkins/KG combo that was broken up), and that's why even Kobe has enjoyed some of his most efficient seasons to date.

[semi-sentient]

Here's another view, with a few added numbers:

Code: Select all

                    GP   MPG   PTS   FG%   3P%   FT%   REB  AST  STL  BLK  TOV
==============================================================================
Shaq-Era (all)      119  38.3  22.6  43.4  32.3  79.2  4.8  4.4  1.4  0.7  2.7
Shaq-Era (starter)  99   42.5  25.5  43.6  33.1  79.5  5.5  5.1  1.6  0.8  3.0
Post-Shaq           79   41.2  29.8  46.7  35.0  84.4  5.7  5.4  1.5  0.6  3.3

BTW, these numbers illustrate something interesting regarding defensive statistics and why they're largely useless when comparing players. Kobe was an elite defender back in the Shaq-era. There's no question about it. He wasn't just considered the best perimeter defender in the league, but one of the best overall defenders. Overall he's been really good post-Shaq (we're talking playoffs only, of course), but not nearly as good as early Kobe, and yet, there isn't much change in the defensive stats.

[stunnar0b]

nice info from semi

[Edrees]

I'd love to see Shaq's stats before, with, and after Kobe...now that would actually make Kobe look really good, even if a lot of that will have to do with shaq's age.

[Base]

Is it possible if you can convert those numbers to PER48MINS?

Meaning, you convert all of those minutes to what he would average per 48 minutes played? Just wondering, because oddly enough this season (2010-2011), although Kobe is averaging only 25 points per game, looking at PER48 minutes, Kobe would be leading in scoring. That way we can visually see how much more effective Kobe Bryant is playing.

Sorry, I don't know why the [code] isn't working out for me. =[

Players PER48
Kobe Bryant 35.9
Kevin Martin 34.6
Carmelo Anthony 34.4
Kevin Durant 34.1
Lebron James 33.1
Dwayne Wade 33.0
Amare Stoudemire 33.0
Dirk Nowitski 32.2
Derrick Rose 32.1
Russell Westbrook 30.2

[chefy]

Kobe's an automatic career 30-5-5 player or maybe even better, if he have been the first option/franchise player since the beginning of his NBA career.

[semi-sentient]

There is no question that Kobe's stats would be much better had the Lakers been built around him from the start (minus Shaq, of course). All the current LeBron dick-suckers would have appreciated him that much more for his wonderful stats for a failed cause.

In fact, in something like 48 games minus Shaq from 99-00 to 03-04 Kobe averaged ~31/8/5, and that was with awful centers like Travis Knight, Greg Ostertag, Samaki Walker, etc -- and no clear 2nd option. I don't know if those are the exact numbers, but Kobe's rebounding and overall defensive stats improved dramatically minus Shaq, and he actually kept the team at close to .500.

[chefy]

man imagine how many NBA records Kobe would have broken

[Imadogg]

Dammit I wrote a response but I guess I forgot to submit...

Good stuff semi, I did a quick lookup of these stats to keep it simple, because people always bring up how Kobe shoots better in the regular season (career) than in the playoffs (career). They don't separate and say the 1st 2 years don't count. But it's nice to look at this, wow Kobe has improved in every stat without Shaq compared to when he started next to Shaq, and he's playing one less minute. Didn't expect that.