cost of moving up; worth it?

kamazilla · Post #1 » by **kamazilla** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 3:45 am

I really don't think the chances for the Jazz to trade up to the top 2 in this draft are very promising. What teams in this draft would trade Irving for Harris + 6 or Derrick Williams for Millsap + 6? The repercussions of trading away a player who clearly has all star potential are too dire for most GMs to consider such a move.

In this draft, the 12th pick won't offer much incentive, and the GSW pick next season could turn out to be 14th or worse. Trading up in the draft, particularly up 4 spots at the very top of a very top heavy draft, is going to be very, very difficult. The Jazz have tried numerous times to trade up, (Cousins, Hibbert, Williams, the Stanford lurch with the bad feet, etc.) and are rarely successful- even in the late teens.

So what would ya'll be willing to give up, if anything, to land in the top two? Rational? And considering the equation from the perspective of the lottery winners, what would it take for you to give up one of the top picks?

Jazzfan12 · Post #2 » by **Jazzfan12** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 3:49 am

Irving and Williams don't have all-star potential. No team would trade out of the top 2. Trading 6+Millsap is way too much (Especially for Williams who is a Millsap clone at best), 6+Harris is something no one would be interested in.

gojazzmjsucks · Post #3 » by **gojazzmjsucks** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 3:58 am

You dont think Williams can play the 3?He is the only one i would trade up for. But not giving up Sap for it.

carrottop12 · Post #4 » by **carrottop12** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 4:04 am

My guess is the jazz would be looking to trade up to #3 or #4 if they fell in love with either knight or kanter who could easily be gone by 6, and felt if they didn't get either of those 2 they'd be going home empty handed. My guess is the deal would involve a player and a pick, but not likely 2 picks, I don't think the jazz are afraid of being young next year, and if they are in fact taking the okc approach, you have to part with vets to keep or add picks.

The59Sound · Post #5 » by **The59Sound** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 4:05 am

Jazzfan12 wrote:Irving and Williams don't have all-star potential. No team would trade out of the top 2. Trading 6+Millsap is way too much (Especially for Williams who is a Millsap clone at best), 6+Harris is something no one would be interested in.

Come on, man. They don't even have All Star potential? That's some supreme hyperbole right there.

kamazilla · Post #6 » by **kamazilla** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 4:26 am

Jazzfan12 wrote:Irving and Williams don't have all-star potential. No team would trade out of the top 2. Trading 6+Millsap is way too much (Especially for Williams who is a Millsap clone at best), 6+Harris is something no one would be interested in.

Williams absolutely has all star potential and plays the three much more effectively than 'Sap. I'm simply saying I don't foresee a deal being done, either.

As far as trading up for Knight- depends what they have to part with, but right now I'm not sold. Kanter looks promising, and he probably will be gone at six. If the Jazz can't land Williams though, my preference is actually Biyombo.

MeestR · Post #7 » by **MeestR** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 4:32 am

williams is the only guy i REALLY want in this years draft. perfect 3/4 (primarily 3) guy. but if jazz have to trade up to get him, i think the only thing fair would be the nets pick and next years first-lottery protected-pick (nvm, i don't think that's available. but something along those lines). not much more than that though.

idajazz · Post #8 » by **idajazz** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 4:07 pm

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the Jazz are more likely to trade down.
Maybe say 15-25, and a second rounder or 2 for the 6th.
wouldn't bother me at all. this draft sucks.

Jazzfan12 · Post #9 » by **Jazzfan12** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 4:53 pm

You don't move from 6 to 25 for a second rounder.

idajazz · Post #10 » by **idajazz** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 5:35 pm

In this draft it may be a good move.

Xanthis · Post #11 » by **Xanthis** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 6:58 pm

Its never good to throw away a pick when you probably won't be drafting this high again in a while.

idajazz · Post #12 » by **idajazz** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 7:31 pm

In this draft?

kamazilla · Post #13 » by **kamazilla** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 7:37 pm

I would welcome trading down with the twelfth (what a weird word, I don't think I've ever typed that) pick to land Chris Singleton. I would also like to grab another pick in next years draft in order to help facilitate trading up in a really good draft.

babyjax13 · Post #14 » by **babyjax13** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 8:07 pm

Williams is so overhyped. If anything his ceiling is where Millsap is now, to me it just isn't worth is, especially when there is only a three year difference between the two.

The59Sound · Post #15 » by **The59Sound** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 8:13 pm

babyjax13 wrote:Williams is so overhyped. If anything his ceiling is where Millsap is now, to me it just isn't worth is, especially when there is only a three year difference between the two.

Come on, man. Are you serious? His ceiling is Millsap?

One, he could legitimately play the three full-time if he wanted. Huge advantage over Millsap straight-off. Already, he's a better scorer than Millsap (though not as good a rebounder). Defensively, his lateral quickness is much better than Paul's, which gives a coach more options when matching up.

Aside from them both being slightly short when playing the PF position, I don't even see the similarities.

Derrick Williams is going to have a very nice career.

carrottop12 · Post #16 » by **carrottop12** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:16 pm

Yeah, I'm not really sure what the hate on Williams is about.

He isn't a can't miss prospect, actually he sort of reminds me of Evan Turner last year, but he has real skills, and he plays nothing like Millsap so I am not sure where those comparisons come from. He has good size for a 3/4, he certainly isn't a true four, but he looks like he can play the 3 with some spot minutes at the four (opposite of Millsap.)

He is a skilled ball handler in both the low post and from the perimeter, and he is a far better shooter than Millsap was when he came into the league.

If Millsap progressed so much from age 21 to where he is now, why would we assume a guy with a better frame, and more polished offensive skills couldn't progressive even further from the age of 19?

Personally, I'd love to get him, and I think he's a definite starter, and might be a perfect fit next to Gordon.

Between Hay, Williams and Favors we'd have a very tall, athletic 2, 3, 4 rotation.

babyjax13 · Post #17 » by **babyjax13** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:25 pm

Come on, man. Are you serious? His ceiling is Millsap?

One, he could legitimately play the three full-time if he wanted. Huge advantage over Millsap straight-off. Already, he's a better scorer than Millsap (though not as good a rebounder). Defensively, his lateral quickness is much better than Paul's, which gives a coach more options when matching up.

Aside from them both being slightly short when playing the PF position, I don't even see the similarities.

Derrick Williams is going to have a very nice career.

Millsap is a legitimate 17 and 8 type of player, and I certainly think that he could play small forward full time (and I realize I am in the minority). Derrick's ceiling, IMO is to be a 16-19ppg type of player. That's certainly nice, but we already have it from Paul Millsap and I don't see why we would have to add to Sap to get Derrick. IMO Paul for Derrick is about right on the value spectrum, but I would still rather have Millsap because he is still young and he is proven.

The59Sound · Post #18 » by **The59Sound** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:46 pm

Fair enough. I think you're crazy, my friend, but that's why they play the games.

carrottop12 · Post #19 » by **carrottop12** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 10:13 pm

I just don't see Millsap as the type of guy who can give us 17/8 from the SF position. I certainly don't think he can guard the majority of 3's in the league, and as 82games just showed in their defensive rankings, Paul can't guard 4's either.

I just don't believe he's a starting player in this league, I love his hustle, I love his ability to adapt his game, but the fact is he doesn't have the size to compete against the best of the best in the starting line up.

He's a perfect 6th man in the mold of Ginobili and Odom, hard worker, go to guy off of the bench who can dominate other teams second units. A perfect compliment to Favors who is going to simply out talent guys, Millsap is going to come in immediately after and out work them.

Honesty, with the way Favors fouls, and the fact that he is still so young, my guess is he averages about 25 minutes per next season, that still leaves 23 minutes a game for a back up PF, he might be able to give us 7-10 minutes as a back up SF. That gives him a full 30 minutes a night against back ups where he can still be a 15/8 guy with out giving up 20/10 to the opposing starting PF, or giving up 15/8 or better to an opposing starting SF.

Jazzfan12 · Post #20 » by **Jazzfan12** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 10:48 pm

Williams' handle is too weak for SF and he's a bad defender regardless of position. Millsap off the bench doesn't work at all because two of your three bigs still suck at defense which you can't win with. Both Williams and Millsap are extremely versatile, inconsistent scorers who prefer to faceup but have an efficient postup game, have high BBIQs, but don't defend or rebound. Williams is the better man defender (Almost by default) and Millsap is the better help defender (Again, almost by default), but otherwise they're pretty much the same. Millsap is getting way underrated and Williams is getting way overrated.