Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 7

[bboyskinnylegs]

I think Liggins will be a good pickup for someone with a late 1st.

[JYD]

So you knock Kanter but sing the praises of two guys who have shown very little actual basketball skill? Ok.

Two things concern me with your posts on Kanter. First is that you seem misinformed about his measurements and his athleticism. Secondly, you seem to be dragging Hoffa into this discussion when there is NO comparison.
.

First of all, I'm not singing the praises of anyone (at least that much), I'm just pointing out those 2 other guys at least qualify for the physical traits I'd look for in a C to develop.

2nd, for the umpteenth time, I'm not comparing him to Hoffa as a player. I'm only using Hoffa as an example we know all too well as a guy who lacked length, quickness and hops. If you want an actual player comparison, I'd say a less athletic, more offensively skilled Gortat is somewhat fair for his upside. But to me that projects him to being a backup C, as someone who won't defend well even if his offense is ok.

3rd, I'm using my own eyes to gauge his level of length, athleticism and quickness, so there is no informing being done. You don't need hours of video to judge this kind of thing, only a decent memory of comparable players and their success over the years.

For the record, I've never said Kanter will be a bad player. What I've been pointing out is that the vast majority of players with his abilities (or lack of), tend to be mediocre at best. Even if players like him manage to get their offensive game off, their defense is usually far behind, and they're not typically possessing the kind of upside/impact one would want in a high lottery pick.

If you want to argue he looks quick enough to get his offense off, or anything else based on the video you've seen, that's one thing, and it's subjective, so there's no point in arguing in circles about it. That's pretty much what I've based my opinions on though. I don't care much about what scout x or college player y says, or about some stats he put up, or about adjectives like 'polished' and 'pedigree'. Anyone can say anything about any player, it means very little in terms of winning an argument that can't actually be won until the player hits the floor.

[Reignman]

So you knock Kanter but sing the praises of two guys who have shown very little actual basketball skill? Ok.

Two things concern me with your posts on Kanter. First is that you seem misinformed about his measurements and his athleticism. Secondly, you seem to be dragging Hoffa into this discussion when there is NO comparison.
.

First of all, I'm not singing the praises of anyone (at least that much), I'm just pointing out those 2 other guys at least qualify for the physical traits I'd look for in a C to develop.

2nd, for the umpteenth time, I'm not comparing him to Hoffa as a player. I'm only using Hoffa as an example we know all too well as a guy who lacked length, quickness and hops. If you want an actual player comparison, I'd say a less athletic, more offensively skilled Gortat is somewhat fair for his upside. But to me that projects him to being a backup C, as someone who won't defend well even if his offense is ok.

3rd, I'm using my own eyes to gauge his level of length, athleticism and quickness, so there is no informing being done. You don't need hours of video to judge this kind of thing, only a decent memory of comparable players and their success over the years.

For the record, I've never said Kanter will be a bad player. What I've been pointing out is that the vast majority of players with his abilities (or lack of), tend to be mediocre at best. Even if players like him manage to get their offensive game off, their defense is usually far behind, and they're not typically possessing the kind of upside/impact one would want in a high lottery pick.

If you want to argue he looks quick enough to get his offense off, or anything else based on the video you've seen, that's one thing, and it's subjective, so there's no point in arguing in circles about it. That's pretty much what I've based my opinions on though. I don't care much about what scout x or college player y says, or about some stats he put up, or about adjectives like 'polished' and 'pedigree'. Anyone can say anything about any player, it means very little in terms of winning an argument that can't actually be won until the player hits the floor.

I guess my concern is that I don't see any of the same limitations Hoffa had. Hoffa had length, speed and athleticism issues and I don't see that at all with Kanter. Kanter has legit C size and length and has enough quickness (has a face up game and if you watch the hoops summit clip you'll see him beating guys like Sully off the bounce with ease). And with dunking I see his game similar to the way Cousins plays. He uses footwork / post moves to beat his man rather than raw athleticism. If you watch Cousins play you'll see him lay up the ball 90% of the time because he doesn't need to dunk.

[Hassassin]

I don't think Whiteside's athleticism is on par with Biyombo, however, even if you give him the benefit of the doubt and say that it is, Whiteside (who was 2 years older at the time he was drafted) weighed 227 lbs at the combine (vs. Biyombo's 243lbs. now). His only advantage is that his standing reach is 2 inches bigger at 9'5" vs 9'3". But as we've seen with Alabi (who also has a standing reach of 9'5"), the size/athleticism is much more important. Whiteside got by being a giant swatting shots in the Conference USA... and even there, he often got backed down in the post by guys like Jerome Jordan.

Whiteside’s weaknesses as a prospect are often just as glaring as his strengths. His main issue revolves around his extremely underdeveloped frame, which hinders him on the offensive end, but more importantly makes him a constant target for post-up plays and renders him an exceptionally poor man to man defender against average college big men. Whiteside gives up deep position in the post with the greatest of ease--seemingly not even fighting back at times-- getting out of his stance quickly, bringing his hands down, and downright giving up on plays, thinking he’ll simply be able to recover and come up with a block, which at this level can indeed be the case on occasion.

From DraftExpress.com http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Has ... z1K4TQILOe
http://www.draftexpress.com

Aside from their length/shotblocking ability, there isn't a whole lot that's similar between these two prospects. Biyombo brings a lot more defensively imo.

Ok, i'm gonna be honest but this is a trend i notice from draft to draft, in terms of comparing Bismack to Whiteside I feel that Bismack is recieving the same type of spike as Hassan Whiteside did last year and I was one of the person that was on the Hassan Whiteside bandwagon, never will I ever make the same mistake twice.

I also think he's best served being drafted by a top team that can afford him to be in the D-league for a while, so he should be a player that should be drafted mid to late 20's.

Whiteside was very raw and you might have to wait on him for a couple of years to see what he is fully capable off. Some rookies, centers especially, take time to develop. Biyombo is a lot more NBA ready than Whiteside in my opinion. He's already producing at a high level at the ACB. There is no reason why his shot blocking and rebounding won't translate to the NBA.

[JYD]

I hear what you're saying, I just feel looking at him operate in the post that he lacks a level of quickness when going to a move that guys like Cousins have more of. I keep having visions of him not fooling guys inside and being easily blocked or challenged. I think his face-up game could be more effective though.

But unless a guy is going to make a serious impact offensively as a C (like the Dirkish hopes we had for Bargs), I don't care about that part of his game nearly as much as I do about the player's defensive impact.

[Komodo]

I think BB has the most shot-blocking potential, but I think JV has better rebounding potential. His arms are always up high and he has the ability to tip the ball multiple times to himself until he secures the rebound, like Amir. I like his touch around the basket at both ends. But he's also pretty weak/skinny and needs to add a lot of strength. BB seems like he has the most potential as a rim-protector and shot-blocking presence. But he's very raw overall, especially on the offensive end. His offense will be limited to putbacks and dunks, which isn't a bad thing, but I don't think his offense will ever progress beyond that point. I also wasn't too impressed with his defensive game either. Yeah he's got length but his timing/awareness and body control leave a lot to be desired. His short stature is always going to be a concern and I can see him getting out-muscled in the NBA fairly easily.

[Reignman]

I hear what you're saying, I just feel looking at him operate in the post that he lacks a level of quickness when going to a move that guys like Cousins have more of. I keep having visions of him not fooling guys inside and being easily blocked or challenged. I think his face-up game could be more effective though.

But unless a guy is going to make a serious impact offensively as a C (like the Dirkish hopes we had for Bargs), I don't care about that part of his game nearly as much as I do about the player's defensive impact.

Believe me, I hear that. The way I see it is Kanter definitely won't be a Dirk type player, he'll be more of an old school low post C. A guy that can score on high percentages using post moves and stepping out once in a while in face up situations. I also seem him as a guy where you can start your offense out of the post because his passing game is reportedly very good (out of the post).

On defense, I don't see him being a DPOY candidate but I see a Rasho like defender who can grab around 10 boards a game.

The reason I really love this (if the reports on his game are accurate) is that coupled with Ed/Amir at PF it gives us a frontcourt with no glaring holes on offense or defense. It's actually a very traditional frontcourt reminiscent of teams from the 80s/90s. Your C gives you post offense/defense, he grabs his share of boards under the basket, blocks some shots and acts as a presence in the lane. Your PF acts as your weakside "shotblocker", grabs any rebounds that aren't in the trenches and defends the PnR. Also, the bonus is Kanter does have a face up game that he can use from time-to-time and Ed seems to have some touch out to about 12'.

[dagger]

I'm being reserved on Kanter because he's purposely hid from coverage and all we have is a limited amount of edited media on which to judge. Clearly, scouts and team execs who saw him play first hand and will be able to work him out and interview him have a much clearer picture. The one thing I'll say is that he's working with Calipari who has shrewdly built himself a rep as a draft friendly coach - note he got three players into the draft today, though w/o agents - and that helps him recruit the best one and done players in particular. When the NCAA refused to let Kanter play for K, Calipari vowed to work with him right up to draft day, so I suspect he will be in great shape for workouts and has possibly improved some of his issues.

[Hassassin]

Here is an interesting comparison:

Serge Ibaka's numbers at the ACB:

Games: 31
MPG: 16.0
PPG: 7.1
PPG per 40: 17.7
BPG: 1.0
BPG per 40: 2.5
RPG: 4.5
RPG per 40: 11.2
REB%: 13.8
FPG: 1.6
FPG per 40: 4.0
FG%: 54.7
FT%: 72.1
PER: 19.9
TS%: 58.0

Compared to Biyombo's this year

Games: 14
MPG: 17.0
PPG: 6.4
PPG per 40: 14.6
BPG: 2.3
BPG per 40: 5.3
RPG: 5.1
RPG per 40: 11.7
REB%: 15.5
FPG: 2.0
FPG per 40: 4.6
FG%: 56.1
FT%: 55.3
PER: 20.3
TS%: 56.0

[McFurious1]

Lets hope we get a top two pick and makes this choice easier.

Here's what my draft board looks like:

Iriving/Williams (I'm really big on Williams)
Kanter
Brandon Knight
Valanciunas/Bismack
Walker

[TDotRep]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0SywyghC4g&feature=related[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jj8AN7nZBOk&feature=related[/youtube]

If Irving Williams Kanter and maybe val are off the board I consider this guy.

[Rude Boy 1]

I'm being reserved on Kanter because he's purposely hid from coverage and all we have is a limited amount of edited media on which to judge. Clearly, scouts and team execs who saw him play first hand and will be able to work him out and interview him have a much clearer picture. The one thing I'll say is that he's working with Calipari who has shrewdly built himself a rep as a draft friendly coach - note he got three players into the draft today, though w/o agents - and that helps him recruit the best one and done players in particular. When the NCAA refused to let Kanter play for K, Calipari vowed to work with him right up to draft day, so I suspect he will be in great shape for workouts and has possibly improved some of his issues.

This is just a terrible, terrible draft and I know we're all looking for a silver lining but the reality is outside of the top two picks this draft is very ugly.

How Kanter can move up a draft board when he hasn't played a game all year should show and prove the weakness of this draft. Still we have to make a selection when our number is up so with that said... Kanter's build appears to be more NBA ready than most of the other bigs out there. He looks like he can put more muscle on his frame and could be tough to handle in the post already. I'm of the belief that in a draft this weak you have to draft skillful players over bigs but seeing as BC has his eyes set on acquiring that big body, Kanter would be my choice. Not because I think he's the best choice but because I see him as having the best potential to be a serviceable NBAer...

What an awful year to tank...

My board looks like this

Kyrie Irving
Williams
Kanter
Walker
Knight
T. Jones

We really need a bit of luck to shine on us.

[RaptorReloaded]

I agree with you McFurious. Though I'd have Val, Knight and Kanter all tied at that 3rd spot. We really do need to take a good look at Knight. IMO he might be the steal of the draft a couple years down the line. I like Val and Kanter also but we need to really do our homework and take the best player available instead of drafting for need. Example being if BC is looking for a big I'd rather he attain it through trade then this years draft. To many question regarding Kanter. Val plays limited minutes and is judged on upside and his body mechanics like length and style of play. Knight on the other hand has been a top prospect for awhile now and though he had a rough start, the 18 year old lead Kentucky to the final 4 hitting clutch shot after clutch shot playing valuable minutes. That and I dont think he's even scratched his potential as a player yet. There were many things we can point out in his game that he lacks but the beauty was he got by with out them and he's still a teenager. We got to watch knight while Val, Kanter and BB are all players weve only seen short stints of.

[Dalek]

Brandon Knight is a clear favorite to me.

Elite quickness and athleticism
Great size and length for a defender
Elite scorer with advanced perimeter and finishing skills (already has a great floater in the lane; can score in any ISO situation)
Already scouted as one of the top 3 HS recruits
Smart person who looks like he has the killer mentality

He may not be a pass-first PG, but we have Calderon for two more years to teach him. His assist to turnover ratio improved over the year and he did step up in the tournament.

The guy reminds me a lot of Gilbert Arenas or Rondo with a jumper. We missed out on Jrue Holiday, this is our due-over.

[TDotRep]

I'd rather keep bayless

[MEDIC]

If Irving Williams Kanter and maybe val are off the board I consider this guy.

I agree with you. A lot of people are writing him off as if he's a finished player or something. The kid is only 18 years old & has a ton of potential.

- 18 years old
- Built like a tank (245lbs)
- Good size to play the SF position (6' 8")
- Outstanding #'s for an 18 y/o freshman (15.7ppg, .329 from 3, 8.8rpg, 1.9bpg, 1.1spg)
- Can handle the ball pretty well.
- Good athleticism
- Played in a tough conference
- Played on a stacked team & still got impressive numbers
- Well coached

He's another guy that I could see moving up the draft boards after the workouts.

[God Squad]

Lets hope we get a top two pick and makes this choice easier.

Here's what my draft board looks like:

Iriving/Williams (I'm really big on Williams)
Kanter
Brandon Knight
Valanciunas/Bismack
Walker

Pretty good draft board considering the prospects. But I want no part of Walker. I'd switch Walker with Terrence.

[Reignman]

Yeah, I was very high on Knight and still am from an upside perspective but I don't see anything in his game that Bayless doesn't have. In fact, although still developing his passing game, Bayless seems to be the far better distributor at this stage whereas Knight hasn't shown much of a passing game at college or HS.

[RaptorReloaded]

I'm jumping on the Knight bandwagon for the 3rd pick. I like Bayless too but I like Knights jumpshot better then Jerryd's. I wouldn't mind a PG that has the balls to take a quick screen and nail a long 3 early in the shot clock on our team or hit clutch shots for that matter. I'm a huge Bayless fan and I can't believe I'm saying this but I'd rather Knight as our starting guard. Bayless is definitely the better player now but I can see Knight being better a year or so down the line. Possibly one of the top 5 pg's in the east if given the oppertunity. Im pretty sure we are not going to take Knight and will stick with Bayless though.

[Strategist1]

Here is an interesting comparison:

Serge Ibaka's numbers at the ACB:

Games: 31
MPG: 16.0
PPG: 7.1
PPG per 40: 17.7
BPG: 1.0
BPG per 40: 2.5
RPG: 4.5
RPG per 40: 11.2
REB%: 13.8
FPG: 1.6
FPG per 40: 4.0
FG%: 54.7
FT%: 72.1
PER: 19.9
TS%: 58.0

Compared to Biyombo's this year

Games: 14
MPG: 17.0
PPG: 6.4
PPG per 40: 14.6
BPG: 2.3
BPG per 40: 5.3
RPG: 5.1
RPG per 40: 11.7
REB%: 15.5
FPG: 2.0
FPG per 40: 4.6
FG%: 56.1
FT%: 55.3
PER: 20.3
TS%: 56.0

Thanks...Interesting indeed. They're comparable but Biyombo clearly has better blocking ability and might have a slight edge in rebounding.

One can state a case for any of the 3 Bigs (Kanter, Val, Biyombo) Again, what I'm looking for moreso is defensive ability. Offense in the front court can be provided by our PF. If a prime Ed Davis can score 15-17 points a game, IMO that's enough offence in the front court.

A strong DEFENDER/REBOUNDER/SHOTBLOCKER in the paint are hard to come by. So for this reason, I'm in favour of drafting Biyombo (if we stay 3rd and Irving/DWill are gone). I'm sure once he fills out, he'd be able to score 8-10 points just on put backs/dunks alone.

Both Ed Davis/Amir are already putting up 10-15 points a game when they play siginificant minutes (and are healthy).