Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 7

fredericklove · Post #1321 » by **fredericklove** » Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:13 am

Also there's alot of great athletic shotblocker in the nba yeah namely ibaka and mcgee, chandler etc yet u guys compare him to big ben whom defense is absolutely beyond another level. Big Ben is 4 time defensive player of the year, 4 time nba all star and 5 time all defensive 1st team. You guys hype Bismack way toooooo much. As Kanter supporter I do hype Kanter's game but I don't overhype him as someone who will dominate the league in points and rebound lol.

Mr.Raptorsingh · Post #1322 » by **Mr.Raptorsingh** » Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:16 am

I'm just trusting my own intuition, and 'hunches' in regards to the prospects in the draft.

It's really hard for me to comment on Kanter or Valanciunas, because I haven't seen them play. When I'm judging these prospects, I'm looking for a discernible skill that can change, or impact the game in some way. That skill has to be transferable to the NBA. I've seen 3-4 prospects (even in this draft) who have game-changing ability: Kyrie Irving, Derrick Williams, Kemba Walker, and maybe, Bismack Biyombo. All four have weaknesses to some extent, but each possess talent that you can bank on in the NBA - Kyrie Irving has an advanced feel for the game at the PG position. Incredible savvy, and will be able to control the tempo of the game, which is very important. Derrick Williams is a guy who combines athleticism with strength, and because of that, he'll be a tough cover for any SF. Once he puts his head down, he'll lift the defender guarding him just a tad bit, and then explode to the rim for a little push shot, lay-in, or dunk. If he misses, he's got a good second jump to be able to gather his own miss, and stick it back in. Kemba Walker is another tough cover, especially when he isn't being crowded by two or three guys like he was after his performance at the Maui Invitational. Great explosiveness, body control, can get his own at any point during a possession. You can give it to him with a shot clock running down, and he'll make something out of nothing for ya. On our team, he has to be able to find DeMar, or any shooter - once those guys get going, Kemba will have space to maneuver; at that point, it's just a matter finding the seams in the defence to exploit, which is what Kemba is very good at doing. Bismack Biyombo - all I'm going to say about him is, he can defend the rim. That's something he can put his hat on. He also just seems like a guy who relishes the opportunity to swat the ball right back in your face. I like that about him. Offence isn’t a concern for me at all with respect to Biyombo.

Post #1323 » by **JYD** » Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:16 am

JamesNaismith wrote:
5DOM wrote:Biyombo looked really athletic to me...

Quick off his feet sure....but not athletic.

I know I'm basing that more off of agility but that had a really big effect on what Wallace could do as evidenced by his current state. I just think a lot of NBA centers can also use those long limbs against him to draw fouls reaching for blocks. You really believe his lack of explosiveness might not make him prone to reach and foul?

Why do you keep bringing this up in the face of contradictory evidence? You can easily argue someone like Jonas V will have big fouling issues in the NBA, because he's super skinny right now, and actually fouls a lot. But Biyombo..why? In ABC he averages just 2 fouls in 17 mins.

And again, I don't understand why you say he's not explosive. Looks like he gets up pretty high to me. Maybe if you're comparing him to Dwight Howard he's not, but cmon.

JamesNaismith · Post #1324 » by **JamesNaismith** » Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:18 am

Wham! wrote:Whoa, whoa, he's not athletic? Go and watch the hoop summit game where he's getting up well above the rim throwing dunks down. or blocking shots with his elbow, or blocking reverses after missing the initial block. I think that description of the level of athleticism you attributed to him is patently false.

As for the foul trouble, he isn't showing it at all in ABC league. Not even close. So I don't see how that is a concern for this player specifically, if anything he's showing signs that he plays in complete control as a defender/shotblocker.

I'm sorry but I gotta agree with YoungBlood on this too....I wanna see you either put it in your sig or someone sticky a thread like this cuz it really seems like you have no willingness to accept any shortcomings on Biyombo.

If he was the monster you believe him to be then he wouldn't have basically been "discovered" at the Nike Hoops Summit. I can admit Kanter doesn't appear to be the lane intimidator Biyombo might be but it's like you can't even admit where Bismack lacks.....I'm not sure how you believe a post of Davis and Biyombo wouldn't fail offensively. It would basically (IF...a big if...Biyombo reaches the capability you say) a reverse situation of Bargnani where we go from lacking enough defence and rebounding to lacking scoring there. I don't know why you can't admit that would stifle our offenc...

Guys like DeMar, Bayless and your next year's draft pick will not be enough to carry the load. These are not ELITE scoring options like an offensively challenged post would require. Ed will have a tougher time scoring if Biyombo isn't a threat to do anything offensively...that's a legitmate problem whether you admit it or not.

Post #1325 » by **5DOM** » Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:20 am

JamesNaismith wrote:I'm sorry but I gotta agree with YoungBloodf on this too....I wanna see you either put it in your sig or someone sticky a thread like this cuz it really seems like you have no willingness to accept any shortcomings on Biyombo.

It's probably because you guys are making ridiculous arguments like how he isn't athletic and he may be 25

JamesNaismith · Post #1326 » by **JamesNaismith** » Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:25 am

Wham! wrote:Why do you keep bringing this up in the face of contradictory evidence? You can easily argue someone like Jonas V will have big fouling issues in the NBA, because he's super skinny right now, and actually fouls a lot. But Biyombo..why? In ABC he averages just 2 fouls in 17 mins.

And again, I don't understand why you say he's not explosive. Looks like he gets up pretty high to me. Maybe if you're comparing him to Dwight Howard he's not, but cmon.

Do you believe the Euroleague C's play anywhere near as physical or close athletically to those in the NBA? Nevermind the wings and PGs (who are also becoming more and more offence minded)?

So his fouls projected in there are FOUR per game with starter-esque minutes in a league that must be unquestionably less athletic and post oriented (as in driving to the basket)....yet you think he won't struggle with fouls at all???? C'mon.

Again I like Biyombo but you my friend can't admit any potential fault to his game.

JamesNaismith · Post #1327 » by **JamesNaismith** » Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:27 am

5DOM wrote:
JamesNaismith wrote:I'm sorry but I gotta agree with YoungBloodf on this too....I wanna see you either put it in your sig or someone sticky a thread like this cuz it really seems like you have no willingness to accept any shortcomings on Biyombo.

It's probably because you guys are making ridiculous arguments like how he isn't athletic and he may be 25

I've made far more thoughtful arguements then anything you've posted all evening.

I'm yet to see any explanation to go against many of the major things I've pointed out....besides "dude he's athletic"...well done sir!

Post #1328 » by **JYD** » Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:30 am

fredericklove wrote:Also there's alot of great athletic shotblocker in the nba yeah namely ibaka and mcgee, chandler etc yet u guys compare him to big ben whom defense is absolutely beyond another level. Big Ben is 4 time defensive player of the year, 4 time nba all star and 5 time all defensive 1st team. You guys hype Bismack way toooooo much. As Kanter supporter I do hype Kanter's game but I don't overhype him as someone who will dominate the league in points and rebound lol.

How about you just analyze his game instead of hyping him, then we can have a better discussion?

I've provided plenty of my own analysis of all 3 of the bigs mentioned at our pick.

Kanter: I feel like defensively he's going to be positionally slow for the NBA game, and not be able to challenge guys defensively as a shotblocking threat. Offensively in the post, I also have doubts as to how effective his game will be as to me he looks too deliberate and slow operating down there, in addition to playing below the rim. His face up game looks decent though so offensively he could be good for a C. He's also the most NBA ready having filled out and possessing a more polished offensive game.

Jonas V: Great size and length, has a good 2nd bounce, moves well, great hands, great target on the pick and roll. My main concern is how much weight/strength he can add and how it relates to his current high foul rate. Could be year 3 before he even starts to contribute. His FG% and FT% are excellent.

Biyombo: Probably nothing special offensively but will get chances for easy scores based on putbacks and the fact he's super long and very fast for his size, being a good rolling target, or open guy out of the double team. His FT shooting is bad right now but his form actually looks half decent. Defensively he looks amazing...my main concern is post defense/being able to hold position against most NBA C's, but I think he looks strong enough for it, and has the footspeed and length to recover well even if he has some issues there. No red flags on foul trouble either, and will probably contribute faster than a Jonas V.

Right now, I like Biyombo, but could also be swayed to Jonas V. Kanter just has too many red flags for me in terms of looking like he'll be a genuinely effective NBA C though, or a good defensive player, period, and I don't think his offense (which I may have underrated before seeing more of his face up game) will be at the kind of top tier level required to compensate for that.

btw, I'm perfectly fine with being wrong, I just like to argue with actual analysis. Speculation about foul rate based on nothing substantiative (every prospect has that question asked about them) and age is more hot air than argumentative substance though, imo. Have at it.

Post #1329 » by **5DOM** » Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:34 am

JamesNaismith wrote:
5DOM wrote:
JamesNaismith wrote:I'm sorry but I gotta agree with YoungBloodf on this too....I wanna see you either put it in your sig or someone sticky a thread like this cuz it really seems like you have no willingness to accept any shortcomings on Biyombo.

It's probably because you guys are making ridiculous arguments like how he isn't athletic and he may be 25

I've made far more thoughtful arguements then anything you've posted all evening.

I'm yet to see any explanation to go against many of the major things I've pointed out....besides "dude he's athletic"...well done sir!

What are these thoughtful arguments that you've made?

JamesNaismith · Post #1330 » by **JamesNaismith** » Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:39 am

5DOM wrote:What are these thoughtful arguments that you've made?

Have someone read to you.

Strategist1 · Post #1331 » by **Strategist1** » Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:42 am

Assuming Ed Davis and Amir collectively score 20-25 points a game, a 4th Big who plays 5 minutes or so scores 2 or 3 points,.... I don't see the need for another huge scorer in the frontcourt. Amir and Ed can score 10+ points pretty efficiently.

I'd take a center who scores 10points/10 rebounds/2 blocks a game and who also alters tons of shots and plays above average defence

Over a guy who may average 15points/9-10 rebounds/0.5 blocks

Another point Kanter supporters should consider...is we still have Bargs on this team. Do you think we need 2 skilled frontcourt players? Yes Kanter can grind it out in the paint it seems. He probably can make himself BIG in the middle. But an intimidating presence in the paint would be valued more.

JamesNaismith · Post #1332 » by **JamesNaismith** » Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:47 am

All I'm asking is for Biyombo supporters please put him being worthy of a top 5 pick SOMEWHERE in your sigs and keep it there for a YEAR....because I have little doubt he won't live up to your collective hype.

Please...someone step up.

Silk Wilkes · Post #1333 » by **Silk Wilkes** » Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:49 am

Strategist1 wrote:Assuming Ed Davis and Amir collectively score 20-25 points a game, a 4th Big who plays 5 minutes or so scores 2 or 3 points,.... I don't see the need for another huge scorer in the frontcourt. Amir and Ed can score 10+ points pretty efficiently.

I'd take a center who scores 10points/10 rebounds/2 blocks a game and who also alters tons of shots and plays above average defence

Over a guy who may average 15points/9-10 rebounds/0.5 blocks

Another point Kanter supporters should consider...is we still have Bargs on this team. Do you think we need 2 skilled frontcourt players? Yes Kanter can grind it out in the paint it seems. He probably can make himself BIG in the middle. But an intimidating presence in the paint would be valued more.

My future Toronto Raptors core does not include Bargnani, I'm going under the assumption the Power Forward position is played by a guy like Davis or Johnson.

Also consider this, when you need a bread and butter basket in the paint who do we turn to with Ed and Amir? I doubt either of them can get you easy buckets down low. With a guy like Kanter you get that. I'd take 15/9-10 & 0.5 for our team over 10/10 & 2 any day.

Strategist1 · Post #1334 » by **Strategist1** » Sat Apr 23, 2011 5:22 am

JamesNaismith wrote:All I'm asking is for Biyombo supporters please put him being worthy of a top 5 pick SOMEWHERE in your sigs and keep it there for a YEAR....because I have little doubt he won't live up to your collective hype.

Please...someone step up.

OK... check the sig.

For the record, here are my projections for Biyombo

Year 1: 5.6 PPG, 6.5 RPG, 1.7 blocks per game
Year 2: 6.4 PPG, 7.7 RPG, 1.8 blocks per game
Year 3: 8.2 PPG, 9 RPG, 1.9 blocks per game WITH good defence.

I think he's in the same talent level as say Dalembert, Okafor, Ibaka. What I think will separate him from these guys, is his attitude/intensity.

Strategist1 · Post #1335 » by **Strategist1** » Sat Apr 23, 2011 5:24 am

Also My sig is conditional... my opinion may change after viewing workout videos/interviews/ and hearing feedback from teams. But after looking at similar players, I'm confident with my assessment.

Strategist1 · Post #1336 » by **Strategist1** » Sat Apr 23, 2011 5:32 am

Youngblood wrote:My future Toronto Raptors core does not include Bargnani, I'm going under the assumption the Power Forward position is played by a guy like Davis or Johnson.

Also consider this, when you need a bread and butter basket in the paint who do we turn to with Ed and Amir? I doubt either of them can get you easy buckets down low. With a guy like Kanter you get that. I'd take 15/9-10 & 0.5 for our team over 10/10 & 2 any day.

I'd take 10/10 & 2 ...if the guy clearly plays better Help D, man to man D... and can get a couple offensive rebounds per game.

Offense can be produced more easily in other positions. A guy who excels at defence in the centre position/blocking and altering shots aren't the easiest to find.

Post #1337 » by **5DOM** » Sat Apr 23, 2011 5:43 am

I'm with Strategist1.

Biyombo has great potential and that alone warrants a top 5 pick in this **** draft.

Mr.Raptorsingh · Post #1338 » by **Mr.Raptorsingh** » Sat Apr 23, 2011 5:51 am

I think the whole sig idea is great, particularly for a draft like this one, where you can end up looking really smart or bad on your predictions. It makes things more interesting, and it's something fun. I'm sure most of us are good sports here.

Here is my prediction: see the guy in my sig. Yeah, him. He'll be the best player to come out of this draft. Yeah, I said it. I'm not sure how strong my limb is, but I'm going out on it.

yayotube · Post #1339 » by **yayotube** » Sat Apr 23, 2011 5:55 am

I can see both sides of the argument for/against Biyombo. When it comes to bigs Kanter is my #1 choice right now, but Biyombo I would definitely take #2 before Jonas.

Biyombo's potential is crazy. He's a sure thing defensively, if he can even average 10-12 points a game in the NBA he'll be a problem for the league

Post #1340 » by **JYD** » Sat Apr 23, 2011 6:04 am

I'm not the kind of person who down the road would resurrect this thread, even if I'm right, because I'm not here to be right or to gloat, nor am I here auditioning for an NBA GM position.

I'm here to discuss and share my opinion and engage in some healthy debate, not to try and say anything to win an argument that can't even be won before the players play. Frankly I think far too many posters here post with that objective in mind... that is, to be right, and to be able to point at a record of being right (which typically comes complete with a cherry-picked or revisionist history btw) for reasons beyond my comprehension.

If you want to sig stuff up go right ahead, but the thread is right here in front of your eyes for all to see. Personally I enjoy discussion here because I love my Craptors and also enjoy stimulating my mind through discussion, but that's about it. I'm out for the e-peen battles.