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I See The Glass Half Empty .... Sorry

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Re: I See The Glass Half Empty .... Sorry 

Post#21 » by NoMoreThrees » Sat Apr 23, 2011 2:55 pm

TKF wrote:I am not throwing in the towel.. get a win tomorrow and we can go from there... amare knees looked fine game 1.. he hurt his back for christ sakes... the second half of the season amare was worn down.. it happens. His knees are fine..


Oh I know you aren't the comment was less about this series and more about the team as a whole and it's situation entering the summer. People giving up on it before the team even has a chance to fill out the roster. That's what I was more talking about. Amare was worn down and people forget he was playing too hard early on to carry the team. You can't do that and not expect to get worn down. If we had Melo all year then Amare could have just played at his level and he wouldn't have gotten so worn out. Next year we will all see that now. Two stars prolonging each other's stamina by sharing the load. Instead of one star killing himself to shoulder a whole team. Plus we will have better role players in place to also take the pressure off. What we've seen should have been expected both from Amare early on having to carry the team by himself and now the effects of the depleted roster from the Melo trade. It's pretty simple stuff and it's going to resolve itself over the summer.

The comforting thing is this was likely the last year we were going to tear the team apart. We won't have that problem anymore. We've done that to get our stars. Now we will see additions from here on out not gutting of the team which as everyone knows also hurts a team's chances to keep going at a good pace. Good things are ahead for this team. It's odd that so many don't see this or well don't want to.
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Re: I See The Glass Half Empty .... Sorry 

Post#22 » by br7knicks » Sat Apr 23, 2011 2:59 pm

i was thinking this exactly actually.
i was happy the knicks just made it to the playoffs, and that's what i told myself at the beginning of the year. i told myself i'd be happy if the knicks just make it to the post season.

unfortunately, last night's game left an absolutely awful taste in my mouth and i am not happy either.
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Re: I See The Glass Half Empty .... Sorry 

Post#23 » by mildred » Sat Apr 23, 2011 3:10 pm

TKF wrote:I am not throwing in the towel.. get a win tomorrow and we can go from there... amare knees looked fine game 1.. he hurt his back for christ sakes... the second half of the season amare was worn down.. it happens. His knees are fine..


This will be my last comment on Amare.

Why did Amare wear down in the 2nd half ? It's not like he's a rookie that is not used to an NBA season. He's played MD minutes for many years while MD was coaching the Suns. He's an athletic specimen and a gym rat that keeps his body in tip top, A1 condition. He's probably in better shape than anyone in the NBA.

Why did he wear down ? It's not like he played against other teams bigs all the time and defended them 100% of the time. In fact the comments regarding his matador defense were heard often on this forum. Why didn't KG, Zbo, Josh Smith, Gasol etc wear down in similar fashion ? These are the questions I ask myself. I love Amare as a leader. I love the way he loves NY. The way he beats his chest, but a leader must lead on the court as well to be a complete leader and I didn't see this aspect in Amare's game in the 2nd half of the season. If you want your team to defend then you must defend.

My beef with Amare is not his performance last nite and I understand he pulled a muscle in his back and is not healthy right now. My beef with Amare has nothing to do with last nites game. My beef with Amare is what he did for NY in the second half of the season. Maybe it was a 40 game slump ..... could be ? I'm concerned though and it's one of the reasons why I see a glass half empty right now.
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Re: I See The Glass Half Empty .... Sorry 

Post#24 » by Pharmcat » Sat Apr 23, 2011 3:12 pm

LOL why did he wear down?

did you not watch the first half of the season where he was playing crazy minutes out of position?
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Re: I See The Glass Half Empty .... Sorry 

Post#25 » by mildred » Sat Apr 23, 2011 3:30 pm

Pharmcat wrote:LOL why did he wear down?

did you not watch the first half of the season where he was playing crazy minutes out of position?


I'm not buying that excuse. Amare has averaged 2 more mpg this season than his career average. While 2 mpg is a lot it shouldn't be a major factor for a guy in the prime of his career and in the best physical shape of his career. And I was just looking at mpg of some other superstars and Amare isn't playing a ridiculous amount of minutes more than those guys, and in fact some less.

Regarding playing centers. If he defended them consistently I could see your point, but he was the equivalent of a David Lee, minus the rebounding but plus the blocks.
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Re: I See The Glass Half Empty .... Sorry 

Post#26 » by Pharmcat » Sat Apr 23, 2011 3:35 pm

how many of those superstars play out of position and have no one helping them out downlow?
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Re: I See The Glass Half Empty .... Sorry 

Post#27 » by Thugger HBC » Sat Apr 23, 2011 3:35 pm

Where is all this Stat playing too much and worn out coming from??

In just about every non injury year for him, he has always played about 35 minutes per game.

If anything he is tired from shooting the ball more, because that's the only thing that's different from his years in PHX.
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Re: I See The Glass Half Empty .... Sorry 

Post#28 » by god shammgod » Sat Apr 23, 2011 3:37 pm

mildred wrote:
Pharmcat wrote:LOL why did he wear down?

did you not watch the first half of the season where he was playing crazy minutes out of position?


I'm not buying that excuse. Amare has averaged 2 more mpg this season than his career average. While 2 mpg is a lot it shouldn't be a major factor for a guy in the prime of his career and in the best physical shape of his career. And I was just looking at mpg of some other superstars and Amare isn't playing a ridiculous amount of minutes more than those guys, and in fact some less.

Regarding playing centers. If he defended them consistently I could see your point, but he was the equivalent of a David Lee, minus the rebounding but plus the blocks.


how many of those guys playing that minutes were asked to carry the team offensively and be the last line of defense.
no offense mildred but i'm pretty sure, judging from your previous posts, that you see most things negatively.
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Re: I See The Glass Half Empty .... Sorry 

Post#29 » by Thugger HBC » Sat Apr 23, 2011 3:41 pm

Pharmcat wrote:how many of those superstars play out of position and have no one helping them out downlow?

The whole team helped him out down low.

Fields was getting 7 boards as a guard, and they weren't deep rebounds, they were mainly in the paint.

Chandler grabbed 6-7 boards as well, and had to play much bigger opponents too.

Stat needs to man up, and when he said he was "tired", I lost alot of confidence in him.

Sit down if you're tired.

Amare'e should be like Gran Hill is with PHX.

injured, but less mileage on the body, but when healthy should be able to go-go-go (D'antoni).
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Re: I See The Glass Half Empty .... Sorry 

Post#30 » by TKF » Sat Apr 23, 2011 3:45 pm

NoMoreThrees wrote:
TKF wrote:I am not throwing in the towel.. get a win tomorrow and we can go from there... amare knees looked fine game 1.. he hurt his back for christ sakes... the second half of the season amare was worn down.. it happens. His knees are fine..


Oh I know you aren't the comment was less about this series and more about the team as a whole and it's situation entering the summer. People giving up on it before the team even has a chance to fill out the roster. That's what I was more talking about. Amare was worn down and people forget he was playing too hard early on to carry the team. You can't do that and not expect to get worn down. If we had Melo all year then Amare could have just played at his level and he wouldn't have gotten so worn out. Next year we will all see that now. Two stars prolonging each other's stamina by sharing the load. Instead of one star killing himself to shoulder a whole team. Plus we will have better role players in place to also take the pressure off. What we've seen should have been expected both from Amare early on having to carry the team by himself and now the effects of the depleted roster from the Melo trade. It's pretty simple stuff and it's going to resolve itself over the summer.

The comforting thing is this was likely the last year we were going to tear the team apart. We won't have that problem anymore. We've done that to get our stars. Now we will see additions from here on out not gutting of the team which as everyone knows also hurts a team's chances to keep going at a good pace. Good things are ahead for this team. It's odd that so many don't see this or well don't want to.



yea, I wonder where all the patience is from those who said this melo trade was about the future anyway.... truth is, the injuries killed us, came at a bad time, and that is just a shame... really is..
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Re: I See The Glass Half Empty .... Sorry 

Post#31 » by yaboynyp » Sat Apr 23, 2011 3:46 pm

TKF wrote:you all know I didn't like the trade, and for various reasons.. not because I don't think melo is a heck of a player... but anyway, it is not his fault amare hurt his back playing horse on the layup line and that billups is really on the backside of his career... and can't stay healthy.... if healthy, this is a different series, and until we have 4 losses I am not going to start talking about the Heat beating the celtics or any offseason plans of firing dantoni.... if we win tomorrow we live another day.... that is what I am holding out for, I still am not ready to stop watching the knicks this season...

I miss gallo and I would love to get him back in a year or so.. but honestly, guys like walker and williams played well, the knicks need a big man and a PG, any upgrade will do..... but until then, we have to find a way to fight with what we have and right now, health is our biggest problem.... not lack of wanting it or will.. I am sorry...


Great post TKF... How do you condemn a team that's playing without 2 of it's 3 best players.... Amare was clearly not 100%, Billups is out, and as a result Melo was doubled the whole game. Let me see this team at 100% and with a whole training camp to figure out how we are going to play, and then we can talk about where are deficiencies lie (aside from the obvious ones like lack of size rebounding etc). Winning a 1st round matchup is nice but the goal of a franchise is to win it all, and even the most delusional knick fan didn't think that was a possibility this year.
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Re: I See The Glass Half Empty .... Sorry 

Post#32 » by K_ick_God » Sat Apr 23, 2011 3:50 pm

Glass is definitely 3/4 full. One game where our coach let us play bad defense -- and where we didn't have Amar'e, had a cold Melo, and no PG -- does not change anything.

It is, however, great material for those who have bad motives and want to bash the team when they're down. But it really doesn't change anything about the future of this club ... except maybe that we need new coaching. Because the defense was back to being awful again yesterday.

Roster wise? We're in good shape and are right where we want to be.
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Re: I See The Glass Half Empty .... Sorry 

Post#33 » by dk7th » Sat Apr 23, 2011 3:51 pm

mildred wrote:
TKF wrote:I am not throwing in the towel.. get a win tomorrow and we can go from there... amare knees looked fine game 1.. he hurt his back for christ sakes... the second half of the season amare was worn down.. it happens. His knees are fine..


This will be my last comment on Amare.

Why did Amare wear down in the 2nd half ? It's not like he's a rookie that is not used to an NBA season. He's played MD minutes for many years while MD was coaching the Suns. He's an athletic specimen and a gym rat that keeps his body in tip top, A1 condition. He's probably in better shape than anyone in the NBA.

Why did he wear down ? It's not like he played against other teams bigs all the time and defended them 100% of the time. In fact the comments regarding his matador defense were heard often on this forum. Why didn't KG, Zbo, Josh Smith, Gasol etc wear down in similar fashion ? These are the questions I ask myself. I love Amare as a leader. I love the way he loves NY. The way he beats his chest, but a leader must lead on the court as well to be a complete leader and I didn't see this aspect in Amare's game in the 2nd half of the season. If you want your team to defend then you must defend.

My beef with Amare is not his performance last nite and I understand he pulled a muscle in his back and is not healthy right now. My beef with Amare has nothing to do with last nites game. My beef with Amare is what he did for NY in the second half of the season. Maybe it was a 40 game slump ..... could be ? I'm concerned though and it's one of the reasons why I see a glass half empty right now.


the reason why amar'e wore down is two-fold: first, you mention that he is an athletic specimen. i disagree-- he is weak in his legs and his rear end for an alleged big man. he is also not his listed height, he's closer to 6'9". he is an undersized power forward-- really a small forward-- and his entire game demonstrates this, from the inability to box out effectively on defense to his lack of a low-post game, preferring to work on his outside midrange jump shot than post moves. he did not have to work so hard with nash feeding him perfect passes on his rolls to the hoop. he has more of a small forward's game, but his ability to finish at the rim due in major part to steve nash's incredible in point passing, gives most people the illusion of his being a power forward.

this leads to the second point: he had to work much harder to get his points and was less efficient in doing so. part of that dynamic was his consistently driving to the hoop against two or three defenders, absorbing physical punishment and expending much more energy than he has ever had to before. if he had worked more assiduously on his passing game he would have been able to make his teammates better and conserved his body for the post-season and the second half for that matter.

posters who insist that amar'e had to put the team on his back are missing the point about amar'e. he didn't have to put the team on his back by taking on the scoring load-- it would have been far more effective if he had worked on getting others involved and making others better to whatever degree he is capable. he is far from striking the right balance and may never be able to. if he wants to help his team succeed next year he must absolutely work on his passing game to whatever degree that is possible to improve at this late stage of his straight from high school career.

in spite of his inability to defend adequately and create genuine chemistry, i am very happy that he is a knick. after all, we acquired him for cash and did not really give up any human capital to do so. that is exactly how players of his ilk should be acquired.
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Re: I See The Glass Half Empty .... Sorry 

Post#34 » by Knicks_Fan2 » Sat Apr 23, 2011 3:56 pm

dk7th wrote:
mildred wrote:
TKF wrote:I am not throwing in the towel.. get a win tomorrow and we can go from there... amare knees looked fine game 1.. he hurt his back for christ sakes... the second half of the season amare was worn down.. it happens. His knees are fine..


This will be my last comment on Amare.

Why did Amare wear down in the 2nd half ? It's not like he's a rookie that is not used to an NBA season. He's played MD minutes for many years while MD was coaching the Suns. He's an athletic specimen and a gym rat that keeps his body in tip top, A1 condition. He's probably in better shape than anyone in the NBA.

Why did he wear down ? It's not like he played against other teams bigs all the time and defended them 100% of the time. In fact the comments regarding his matador defense were heard often on this forum. Why didn't KG, Zbo, Josh Smith, Gasol etc wear down in similar fashion ? These are the questions I ask myself. I love Amare as a leader. I love the way he loves NY. The way he beats his chest, but a leader must lead on the court as well to be a complete leader and I didn't see this aspect in Amare's game in the 2nd half of the season. If you want your team to defend then you must defend.

My beef with Amare is not his performance last nite and I understand he pulled a muscle in his back and is not healthy right now. My beef with Amare has nothing to do with last nites game. My beef with Amare is what he did for NY in the second half of the season. Maybe it was a 40 game slump ..... could be ? I'm concerned though and it's one of the reasons why I see a glass half empty right now.


the reason why amar'e wore down is two-fold: first, you mention that he is an athletic specimen. i disagree-- he is weak in his legs and his rear end for an alleged big man. he is also not his listed height, he's closer to 6'9". he is an undersized power forward-- really a small forward-- and his entire game demonstrates this, from the inability to box out effectively on defense to his lack of a low-post game, preferring to work on his outside midrange jump shot than post moves. he did not have to work so hard with nash feeding him perfect passes on his rolls to the hoop. he has more of a small forward's game, but his ability to finish at the rim due in major part to steve nash's incredible in point passing, gives most people the illusion of his being a power forward.

this leads to the second point: he had to work much harder to get his points and was less efficient in doing so. part of that dynamic was his consistently driving to the hoop against two or three defenders, absorbing physical punishment and expending much more energy than he has ever had to before. if he had worked more assiduously on his passing game he would have been able to make his teammates better and conserved his body for the post-season and the second half for that matter.

posters who insist that amar'e had to put the team on his back are missing the point about amar'e. he didn't have to put the team on his back by taking on the scoring load-- it would have been far more effective if he had worked on getting others involved and making others better to whatever degree he is capable. he is far from striking the right balance and may never be able to. if he wants to help his team succeed next year he must absolutely work on his passing game to whatever degree that is possible to improve at this late stage of his straight from high school career.

in spite of his inability to defend adequately and create genuine chemistry, i am very happy that he is a knick. after all, we acquired him for cash and did not really give up any human capital to do so. that is exactly how players of his ilk should be acquired.


Was waiting for the implied melo trade jab. Thank you for not disappointing me.
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Re: I See The Glass Half Empty .... Sorry 

Post#35 » by yaboynyp » Sat Apr 23, 2011 3:57 pm

mildred wrote:
TKF wrote:I am not throwing in the towel.. get a win tomorrow and we can go from there... amare knees looked fine game 1.. he hurt his back for christ sakes... the second half of the season amare was worn down.. it happens. His knees are fine..


This will be my last comment on Amare.

Why did Amare wear down in the 2nd half ? It's not like he's a rookie that is not used to an NBA season. He's played MD minutes for many years while MD was coaching the Suns. He's an athletic specimen and a gym rat that keeps his body in tip top, A1 condition. He's probably in better shape than anyone in the NBA.

Why did he wear down ? It's not like he played against other teams bigs all the time and defended them 100% of the time. In fact the comments regarding his matador defense were heard often on this forum. Why didn't KG, Zbo, Josh Smith, Gasol etc wear down in similar fashion ? These are the questions I ask myself. I love Amare as a leader. I love the way he loves NY. The way he beats his chest, but a leader must lead on the court as well to be a complete leader and I didn't see this aspect in Amare's game in the 2nd half of the season. If you want your team to defend then you must defend.

My beef with Amare is not his performance last nite and I understand he pulled a muscle in his back and is not healthy right now. My beef with Amare has nothing to do with last nites game. My beef with Amare is what he did for NY in the second half of the season. Maybe it was a 40 game slump ..... could be ? I'm concerned though and it's one of the reasons why I see a glass half empty right now.


Why do you think he wore down?? Because he had injuries?? Injuries happen.. Because he's averaging less points?? He averaged 24.8 in November, He averaged 24.3 in March. Did you think he would score at the same level even after they added a bonafide superstar player to the roster that shoots 20+ times a game? I understand your argument, I just don't understand the premise
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Re: I See The Glass Half Empty .... Sorry 

Post#36 » by atribecalledrch » Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:04 pm

The glass is half full. Maybe a third full. With the installation of defense, some Big Men, and a legit backup PG this team will be alright. Hopefully we can still buy picks so someone would be willing to sell a second rounder so we can go in draft a PG and C. Perhaps Jimmer Fredette in the first and Jeremy Tyler in the second. And we're forgetting we can still add some more strong pieces with all that extra cash we have laying around. No chance in hell Billups' option gets picked up. Theres no reason to deplete our funds. Give him Mid level money for 2 years and thats it. Then we can get 2 other players who want 4-5 mil and then fill out the roster. I think maybe J.R Smith or Shannon Brown would be nice for a 2 and then we can get a backup 4 like Chris Wilcox.


If all those things came into fruition Amare and Melo would be surrounded by a WAY better team.
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Re: I See The Glass Half Empty .... Sorry 

Post#37 » by knicks742 » Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:08 pm

I will repeat once again, we need vets not young players. Young players need time to develop, get used to the game. That is simply time we do not have when you have Melo and Ama're and possibly Billups on your team. We are a win now team whether people like it or not. This year's pick should be traded to get a vet and hopefully we can get some vets to come here next year and play, otherwise, same mess as this year.
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Re: I See The Glass Half Empty .... Sorry 

Post#38 » by NYKat » Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:13 pm

I don't know why some of you are surprised...

this series was not winnable as soon as we drew boston, and many of us said it, a team thats been deep in the playoffs 3 years is not gonna lose to team thats been together 3 months, even if Kobe and Duncan were on it...

I was impressed with the first two games, honestly and almost had faith in dantoni, until he had the team ill-prepared for the fight that boston was gonna bring to them at home in NY...

I don't think D'antoni has done a bad job, but I think we're all just really f*cking the dog until he gets replaced by a more defense-oriented, experienced head coach.
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Re: I See The Glass Half Empty .... Sorry 

Post#39 » by thisiskoz » Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:16 pm

knicks742 wrote:I will repeat once again, we need vets not young players. Young players need time to develop, get used to the game. That is simply time we do not have when you have Melo and Ama're and possibly Billups on your team. We are a win now team whether people like it or not. This year's pick should be traded to get a vet and hopefully we can get some vets to come here next year and play, otherwise, same mess as this year.


unfortunately few are able to understand this... they think every young player will be the second coming... and good quality veteran role players grow on trees...

i really hope to be wrong about this... but the sheer number of extremely talented nba players that have come and gone having never won a ring tells me that having a couple of great players simply isnt enough to get to the promised land...

if building a team was as easy as some on this board claim it is... most every gm should be fired because man.. they sure dont get it...
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Re: I See The Glass Half Empty .... Sorry 

Post#40 » by 2ksports » Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:23 pm

Bad call by ref.

Injuries.

Bad luck.

Knicks really shouldn't be down. We're about to clear room for another star, and potentially a veteran player or 2 for next season.

The only disappointment is that we lost those 1st 2 games. It was demoralizing and I can't say I didn't see a blowout in game 3 coming.

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