Moderators: j4remi, HerSports85, NoLayupRule, GONYK, Jeff Van Gully, dakomish23, Deeeez Knicks, mpharris36
Deeeez Knicks wrote:TrueWarrior wrote:But yes the people talking like its so easy to build a championship team are nuts. This is going to take a sh*t ton of sheer luck on alot of things.
That is all true.
But it was just as true before the trade.
dk7th wrote:the reason why amar'e wore down is two-fold: first, you mention that he is an athletic specimen. i disagree-- he is weak in his legs and his rear end for an alleged big man. he is also not his listed height, he's closer to 6'9". he is an undersized power forward-- really a small forward-- and his entire game demonstrates this, from the inability to box out effectively on defense to his lack of a low-post game, preferring to work on his outside midrange jump shot than post moves. he did not have to work so hard with nash feeding him perfect passes on his rolls to the hoop. he has more of a small forward's game, but his ability to finish at the rim due in major part to steve nash's incredible in point passing, gives most people the illusion of his being a power forward.
this leads to the second point: he had to work much harder to get his points and was less efficient in doing so. part of that dynamic was his consistently driving to the hoop against two or three defenders, absorbing physical punishment and expending much more energy than he has ever had to before. if he had worked more assiduously on his passing game he would have been able to make his teammates better and conserved his body for the post-season and the second half for that matter.
posters who insist that amar'e had to put the team on his back are missing the point about amar'e. he didn't have to put the team on his back by taking on the scoring load-- it would have been far more effective if he had worked on getting others involved and making others better to whatever degree he is capable. he is far from striking the right balance and may never be able to. if he wants to help his team succeed next year he must absolutely work on his passing game to whatever degree that is possible to improve at this late stage of his straight from high school career.
in spite of his inability to defend adequately and create genuine chemistry, i am very happy that he is a knick. after all, we acquired him for cash and did not really give up any human capital to do so. that is exactly how players of his ilk should be acquired.
TKF wrote:you all know I didn't like the trade, and for various reasons.. not because I don't think melo is a heck of a player... but anyway, it is not his fault amare hurt his back playing horse on the layup line and that billups is really on the backside of his career... and can't stay healthy.... if healthy, this is a different series, and until we have 4 losses I am not going to start talking about the Heat beating the celtics or any offseason plans of firing dantoni.... if we win tomorrow we live another day.... that is what I am holding out for, I still am not ready to stop watching the knicks this season...
I miss gallo and I would love to get him back in a year or so.. but honestly, guys like walker and williams played well, the knicks need a big man and a PG, any upgrade will do..... but until then, we have to find a way to fight with what we have and right now, health is our biggest problem.... not lack of wanting it or will.. I am sorry...
Deeeez Knicks wrote:knicks742 wrote:Btw Landry Fields is a perfect example of what I mean. I think most of us agree that the guy has talent but it's going to take some time for him to figure out his role in this team. It's unfair of us to demand him to be a top playoff performer in his rookie season or even next year, it's only fair to give him 2 - 3 years to get there. The question is, do we have those 2 - 3 years to let him get there?
This is what I don't get. Why wouldn't we have 2-3 years? And what is so bad if it takes us 2 years to become a really legit contender?
Amare is 28 and Melo is 26.
If the complaint is that Amare will break down in 2 years, then we are/were F'd no matter what moves or trades we made or did not make.
Deeeez Knicks wrote:knicks742 wrote:Btw Landry Fields is a perfect example of what I mean. I think most of us agree that the guy has talent but it's going to take some time for him to figure out his role in this team. It's unfair of us to demand him to be a top playoff performer in his rookie season or even next year, it's only fair to give him 2 - 3 years to get there. The question is, do we have those 2 - 3 years to let him get there?
This is what I don't get. Why wouldn't we have 2-3 years? And what is so bad if it takes us 2 years to become a really legit contender?
Amare is 28 and Melo is 26.
If the complaint is that Amare will break down in 2 years, then we are/were F'd no matter what moves or trades we made or did not make.
Thugger HBC wrote:Pharmcat wrote:how many of those superstars play out of position and have no one helping them out downlow?
The whole team helped him out down low.
Fields was getting 7 boards as a guard, and they weren't deep rebounds, they were mainly in the paint.
Chandler grabbed 6-7 boards as well, and had to play much bigger opponents too.
Stat needs to man up, and when he said he was "tired", I lost alot of confidence in him.
Sit down if you're tired.
Amare'e should be like Gran Hill is with PHX.
injured, but less mileage on the body, but when healthy should be able to go-go-go (D'antoni).
Thugger HBC wrote:knicks742 wrote:
When I say vets I dont mean 30 year old players, I mean guys that have been in the league. For example, Melo is a vet but he is a young guy, he is only 26. The teams you mentioned are being led by guys that have been in the league for a couple of years and have had a chance to develop in the league.
I should have been clearer I just dont think we have the time to wait for a rookie or first year player to go through his natural progression that takes 2 - 3 years since we are looking at a 5 year window with Amare and Melo.
Yeah, but just bringing guys who have in the league doesn't matter either.
You have to have guys who will do what is needed for your team.
This team has one of the main components to winning a title....players who can make the winning play.
The team needs......
1)The winning play and system of play
2)Players who fit the mold of compliment to Stat and Melo
Vets aren't an automatic answer...we have those already.
Pharmcat wrote:dk7th wrote:the reason why amar'e wore down is two-fold: first, you mention that he is an athletic specimen. i disagree-- he is weak in his legs and his rear end for an alleged big man. he is also not his listed height, he's closer to 6'9". he is an undersized power forward-- really a small forward-- and his entire game demonstrates this, from the inability to box out effectively on defense to his lack of a low-post game, preferring to work on his outside midrange jump shot than post moves. he did not have to work so hard with nash feeding him perfect passes on his rolls to the hoop. he has more of a small forward's game, but his ability to finish at the rim due in major part to steve nash's incredible in point passing, gives most people the illusion of his being a power forward.
this leads to the second point: he had to work much harder to get his points and was less efficient in doing so. part of that dynamic was his consistently driving to the hoop against two or three defenders, absorbing physical punishment and expending much more energy than he has ever had to before. if he had worked more assiduously on his passing game he would have been able to make his teammates better and conserved his body for the post-season and the second half for that matter.
posters who insist that amar'e had to put the team on his back are missing the point about amar'e. he didn't have to put the team on his back by taking on the scoring load-- it would have been far more effective if he had worked on getting others involved and making others better to whatever degree he is capable. he is far from striking the right balance and may never be able to. if he wants to help his team succeed next year he must absolutely work on his passing game to whatever degree that is possible to improve at this late stage of his straight from high school career.
in spite of his inability to defend adequately and create genuine chemistry, i am very happy that he is a knick. after all, we acquired him for cash and did not really give up any human capital to do so. that is exactly how players of his ilk should be acquired.
who are these teammates he was supposed to rely on? gallo who would be invisible on one half, then show up? chandler who started playing like trash after his contract number wish was leaked to the press? mosgov who got benched after griffin violated him? felton was very inconsistent to start with. turiaf who gets injured just by sneezing.
he had no consistent help, plus playing C, it wore him out
mpharris36 wrote:TKF wrote:you all know I didn't like the trade, and for various reasons.. not because I don't think melo is a heck of a player... but anyway, it is not his fault amare hurt his back playing horse on the layup line and that billups is really on the backside of his career... and can't stay healthy.... if healthy, this is a different series, and until we have 4 losses I am not going to start talking about the Heat beating the celtics or any offseason plans of firing dantoni.... if we win tomorrow we live another day.... that is what I am holding out for, I still am not ready to stop watching the knicks this season...
I miss gallo and I would love to get him back in a year or so.. but honestly, guys like walker and williams played well, the knicks need a big man and a PG, any upgrade will do..... but until then, we have to find a way to fight with what we have and right now, health is our biggest problem.... not lack of wanting it or will.. I am sorry...
I agree, we still our not out of the playoffs and that is my mindset. However its just disappointing that we were robbed in game 1 and then all the injuries have caught up to us. As for the future I think we are in decent shape. Guys like Walker and Williams have really stepped up and should form a nice bench with Turiaf and TD. If we can just somehow get a rebounding defensive big man maybe in the draft and then hopefully snag CP3. This is the team to win the championship
dk7th wrote:
who are these teammates he was supposed to rely on? gallo who would be invisible on one half, then show up? chandler who started playing like trash after his contract number wish was leaked to the press? mosgov who got benched after griffin violated him? felton was very inconsistent to start with. turiaf who gets injured just by sneezing.
he had no consistent help, plus playing C, it wore him out
Pharmcat wrote:Thugger HBC wrote:Pharmcat wrote:how many of those superstars play out of position and have no one helping them out downlow?
The whole team helped him out down low.
Fields was getting 7 boards as a guard, and they weren't deep rebounds, they were mainly in the paint.
Chandler grabbed 6-7 boards as well, and had to play much bigger opponents too.
Stat needs to man up, and when he said he was "tired", I lost alot of confidence in him.
Sit down if you're tired.
Amare'e should be like Gran Hill is with PHX.
injured, but less mileage on the body, but when healthy should be able to go-go-go (D'antoni).
does grant hill play out of position?
LOL at this disrespect amare is getting
im still waiting for the response as to what other superstar in this league play high m inutes out of position and dont struggle
mildred wrote:
Why are you using the excuse that Amare is playing out of position ? He's played PF and C for the Suns and became a superstar while doing it. Now, because he may be losing some athleticism your labeling him as a SF playing out of position so we should give him a break ? We didn't pay him $100 mil to be an SF .... bottom line.
Amare is not getting disrespect. If you read my words beyond my overall point, you will see I give him all the credit in the world for what he has done for this franchise this year. BUT HE DOES HAVE MAJOR FAULTS that are holding this team back from reaching a higher potential. If anyone, I hold MD responsible for this because he doesn't hold him accountable as a coach.
And for the folks arguing about our injury bug I'll just say this ........ we had a choice, keep depth and continue to build OR go for the second superstar and lose our depth. We went for the superstar and gave our depth away. Injuries, that are part of the game, cannot be an excuse for us anymore. We made our bed and now we must sleep in it.
Pharmcat wrote:amare didnt come here to lead the team
amare came here b.c ny was only team guaranteeing him 5 max years, period
Pharmcat wrote:
does grant hill play out of position?
LOL at this disrespect amare is getting
im still waiting for the response as to what other superstar in this league play high m inutes out of position and dont struggle
Pharmcat wrote:mildred wrote:
Why are you using the excuse that Amare is playing out of position ? He's played PF and C for the Suns and became a superstar while doing it. Now, because he may be losing some athleticism your labeling him as a SF playing out of position so we should give him a break ? We didn't pay him $100 mil to be an SF .... bottom line.
Amare is not getting disrespect. If you read my words beyond my overall point, you will see I give him all the credit in the world for what he has done for this franchise this year. BUT HE DOES HAVE MAJOR FAULTS that are holding this team back from reaching a higher potential. If anyone, I hold MD responsible for this because he doesn't hold him accountable as a coach.
And for the folks arguing about our injury bug I'll just say this ........ we had a choice, keep depth and continue to build OR go for the second superstar and lose our depth. We went for the superstar and gave our depth away. Injuries, that are part of the game, cannot be an excuse for us anymore. We made our bed and now we must sleep in it.
i NEVER called him a SF, what you talking about?
you still havent answered the question, name me another superstar in this league who is playing out of position that doesnt struggle at point or time?
Pharmcat wrote:ok i was looking for another superstar name, and no 1 can provide it
that should tell you something
Pharmcat wrote:dk7th wrote:
who are these teammates he was supposed to rely on? gallo who would be invisible on one half, then show up? chandler who started playing like trash after his contract number wish was leaked to the press? mosgov who got benched after griffin violated him? felton was very inconsistent to start with. turiaf who gets injured just by sneezing.
he had no consistent help, plus playing C, it wore him out
it's a team game. you are putting the cart before the horse. your best player should be better at making others better. amar'e was our best player but he failed to involve others adequately. amar'e is best at finishing and scoring, especially with an elite point guard.
but coming here, knowing he wanted to lead the team, and knowing that, although he wanted the knicks to acquire luke ridnour-- the point guard closest to resembling steve nash-- and ending up with ray felton instead-- meant only one thing: shift your focus to facilitating more and scoring less, especially when scoring meant going one on two or one on three. guys are open so pass the rock. simple!
facilitating takes less energy than scoring one on three. he showed flashes but flashes means inconsistency--the very thing you want to accuse everyone else on the knicks of. that's a double standard. more should be expected from your max player than scoring, even if he is elite at it.
sometimes it is not THAT you score but HOW you score that makes the difference between leading/facilitating and not. were there not 100s of times where you said "he should have passed the ball that time"? please say yes!