View on Morey and management post-Adelman?

[Baller 24]

I don't log on much, but I'm trying to figure out what peoples views are on Daryl Morey after the decision to let Rick Adelman walk. I know he's ridiculously overrated over at Clutchfans, he's even overrated on the General Board by many of whom don't follow the Rockets closely. I'm just trying to figure out really, what makes this guy so special again?

Rick Adelman was known to make these boys play hard, not just this group, or the '09 playoffs group, but from the VERY beginning starting '08 dating back to the 22 game streak. The guys loved him, he made and allowed them to play HARD he knew how to get the job done, and with the talent he was given he far than exceeded expectations. Especially with how beautifully he got the offense to blossem this season. I'm sure there were other factors taken into considering (maybe from Rick's side) that allowed this not to happen, but I ask again, what REALLY makes Daryl Morey and his number munching so special?

The best move I can think that he's made dating back all the way to his tenure and first horrendous move (Battier draft day trade), was the Luis Scola swap from the Spurs. Other than that move, I don't see ANYTHING that allows his status to be so "high" amongst the crowd. Yeah he was given an injury prone team to start the league, but isn't that HIS job to address those issues?

A season ago many thought we ripped the Knicks of their heart out, but it was actually the other way around. We got a player that the Knicks already addressed the following problems to in Jordan Hill: Horrible hands, can't pass, turnover/foul prone, low BBall IQ. We did a "pick-swap" that we adversely thought until the month of December that was going to fall in our favor, a injury-prone unclutch, non-iso, off the dribble shooter in Kevin Martin (though I have to admit he had arguably his best season ever, so I'll give him props). While in return we gave up Tracy McGrady (massive 24 million in expiring), and Carl Landry (our best closer at the time and emerging/thriving prospect).

The Knicks are actually the team that won, they at the end of the day got the two players they wanted, two players with significant impact that are capable of building a team around. Something WE would kill to have in Houston. This season the Shane Battier trade made absolutely no sense to me, trading a 7 million dollar expiring for a player that'll still be under contract until next season making 5 million this year, and 6 million next year, that is KNOWN to be worst offensively than Jordan Hill, and stupider than Stromile Swift.

I don't know, people I read named the "Adelman" release the worst or 2nd worst move Daryl Morey has ever made, but there are just countless ones that make absolute no sense to see where this franchise is headed, if the job is to compile a bunch of prospects and picks to trade for a superstar, the time is running out and the team itself hasn't shown it's attractiveness. He got rid of a problem that he attained in the off season in '09 signing Trevor Ariza to the MLE (fantastic move for Lee), which I praise, but letting Ron Artest walk the way he did was also absolutely terrible, considering he was coming off of one of his best and most calm shooting seasons to date and we gave up our 2009 first round pick for him.

From the moves that actually make sense, the only ones during his tenure that come to mind as "fantastic" would probably be the Lee, Lowry, Scola, Artest (although again letting him go the way he did was a terrible decision) trade, he's been good (fair to say considering he also tried Dorsey) at scouting, which I haven't had many problems with (Brooks, Patterson, Landry, Bud), but the direction of this trade is something of suspect, I don't view this man as a genius, I don't consider him a secret weapon, considering the Rockets are stuck in a cycle of mediocre when they're in the brink of making the playoffs (and losing in the first round if they do), and in the brink of being a lottery team without attaining a top 3 draft pick that will likely land us a potential franchise player (which is exactly what I consider the mediocre cycle). Unless something miraculous happens this next year (which I'll gladly eat my own words), this guy has been unimpressive to say the least. I'm giving him 1 more season of respect from me personally speaking, before I lose all respect.

Anyway, just my two cents, just trying to figure out what everyones thoughts are on him?

[College Boy]

Yo son, that was like ten cents....

I'll read the whole thing later, then add my thoughts.

[HTown_TMac]

lmao.. i told myself the same thing ^

[Guy986]

I have 110% trust on Morey.

[rocketsballin]

imo after this season, i think morey = walsh, if not he's worse. overall both teams are equal. it's not easy to get a hofer coach, what rick did the last 2 seasons is remarkable. to get in the playoffs this and next season we only needed a defensive center with size that can start. just trade some of that ridiculous useless depth we have/had.

he did think BRAD MILLER was the final CHAMPIONSHIP PIECE!

also i dunno if any of you caught this, but last season in an interview, morey said something like "we cant keep having these breakdowns late in the game. we need to go in the 2nd half with a bigger lead." - i dunno the exact words, but he actually thinks a legit way to win in the nba is to go into the 2nd half with a bigger lead than 20pts. that's just **** stupid to even think, let alone say it. ur very fortunate if your team is up by 20pts, now u wanna tell them to be up by 40? what kind of fantasy land was he in? completely disregarded our lack of competitive basketball at the end of the game. look it up if u want i know he said it, i mentioned it last year. it was posted on clutchfans, maybe one of those 610 radio shows

he hasnt done anythign to make him an elite gm. he is good, but not elite, i jumped off that bandwagon earlier in the regular season. with a lockout looming this team might not be any good for another 2 years. if he doesnt do anything to get this team into the playoffs, then how are we gonna be contenders in 2012-13 season?

[x-]

It's late and I don't feel like arguing, so I'll keep this relatively short and just touch on a couple of points.

I'd take Morey over any GM in the league and would extent him for life if possible.
Is he perfect? No. But nobody is and his postives by far outweigh the negatives.
Do you think any other GM would have been able to put this team in a better position than it is now? I highly doubt it.

You can't blame Morey for the card he was dealt and the lack of health of two superstars.
If Yao and T-Mac would have stayed healthy, the Rockets would be perennial contenders. The fact that he got anything out of one of the two unproducitve albatros contracts should be a positive. The T-Mac trade was good back then and it still is, no matter how things turned out in NY.

You can't blame Morey for the team not being in the playoff the last two years.
This isn't the NFL. Transition takes time and there usually are only a handful of teams that can win it all.

The Rockets aren't stuck. At all.
We have no bad contracts, a ton of draft picks, capspace and a team filled with young players.
Teams like the Mavs, Magic, Hawks & Hornets are stuck. They may be in the playoffs now, but where are they going? They aren't good enough to win now and their rosters being filled with overpaid players will hinder them to compete any time soon.

Having a good GM is absolutely critical, but there's only so much a good GM can do, only so much he has control over. Sometimes it's simply better being lucky than good.
Where would the Bulls be now, had they not gotten lucky in the lottery? Where would the Lakers be had they not gotten handed Gasol for Kwame Brown? Where would the Heat be if not for a historic pairing of two superstars and an All-star? Where were the Celtics before they traded for KG and Allen, a move that Morey helped orchestrate.

I wish things could have been worked out with Adelman, but to quote Morey: "Things aren't always black and white".
Adelman did a great job during his time here but was he the right coach moving forward?
Morey was talking to Adelman for four straight days, trying to work things out and obviously ultimatley felt that a change was needed. I don't blame him. Not yet, anyway.
Let's at least give the new coach a chance.

It's a superstars league and the Rockets won't compete until they get a superstar. There are only about ten or so of them out there, so to get one you have to be either lucky, bad or both.
The Rockets won't ever try to purposely tank under Leslie Alexander, so it really comes down to free-agency and trade.
We're in a good position to go after a superstar in both.
Now all we need is pactience and well ... luck.

[Guy986]

It's late and I don't feel like arguing, so I'll keep this relatively short and just touch on a couple of points.

I'd take Morey over any GM in the league and would extent him for life if possible.
Is he perfect? No. But nobody is and his postives by far outweigh the negatives.
Do you think any other GM would have been able to put this team in a better position than it is now? I highly doubt it.

You can't blame Morey for the card he was dealt and the lack of health of two superstars.
If Yao and T-Mac would have stayed healthy, the Rockets would be perennial contenders. The fact that he got anything out of one of the two unproducitve albatros contracts should be a positive. The T-Mac trade was good back then and it still is, no matter how things turned out in NY.

You can't blame Morey for the team not being in the playoff the last two years.
This isn't the NFL. Transition takes time and there usually are only a handful of teams that can win it all.

The Rockets aren't stuck. At all.
We have no bad contracts, a ton of draft picks, capspace and a team filled with young players.
Teams like the Mavs, Magic, Hawks & Hornets are stuck. They may be in the playoffs now, but where are they going? They aren't good enough to win now and their rosters being filled with overpaid players will hinder them to compete any time soon.

Having a good GM is absolutely critical, but there's only so much a good GM can do, only so much he has control over. Sometimes it's simply better being lucky than good.
Where would the Bulls be now, had they not gotten lucky in the lottery? Where would the Lakers be had they not gotten handed Gasol for Kwame Brown? Where would the Heat be if not for a historic pairing of two superstars and an All-star? Where were the Celtics before they traded for KG and Allen, a move that Morey helped orchestrate.

I wish things could have been worked out with Adelman, but to quote Morey: "Things aren't always black and white".
Adelman did a great job during his time here but was he the right coach moving forward?
Morey was talking to Adelman for four straight days, trying to work things out and obviously ultimatley felt that a change was needed. I don't blame him. Not yet, anyway.
Let's at least give the new coach a chance.

It's a superstars league and the Rockets won't compete until they get a superstar. There are only about ten or so of them out there, so to get one you have to be either lucky, bad or both.
The Rockets won't ever try to purposely tank under Leslie Alexander, so it really comes down to free-agency and trade.
We're in a good position to go after a superstar in both.
Now all we need is pactience and well ... luck.

thank you, voice of reason.

I'll just quote you from now on. Save me the agony.

[College Boy]

It's late and I don't feel like arguing, so I'll keep this relatively short and just touch on a couple of points.

I'd take Morey over any GM in the league and would extent him for life if possible.
Is he perfect? No. But nobody is and his postives by far outweigh the negatives.
Do you think any other GM would have been able to put this team in a better position than it is now? I highly doubt it.

You can't blame Morey for the card he was dealt and the lack of health of two superstars.
If Yao and T-Mac would have stayed healthy, the Rockets would be perennial contenders. The fact that he got anything out of one of the two unproducitve albatros contracts should be a positive. The T-Mac trade was good back then and it still is, no matter how things turned out in NY.

You can't blame Morey for the team not being in the playoff the last two years.
This isn't the NFL. Transition takes time and there usually are only a handful of teams that can win it all.

The Rockets aren't stuck. At all.
We have no bad contracts, a ton of draft picks, capspace and a team filled with young players.
Teams like the Mavs, Magic, Hawks & Hornets are stuck. They may be in the playoffs now, but where are they going? They aren't good enough to win now and their rosters being filled with overpaid players will hinder them to compete any time soon.

Having a good GM is absolutely critical, but there's only so much a good GM can do, only so much he has control over. Sometimes it's simply better being lucky than good.
Where would the Bulls be now, had they not gotten lucky in the lottery? Where would the Lakers be had they not gotten handed Gasol for Kwame Brown? Where would the Heat be if not for a historic pairing of two superstars and an All-star? Where were the Celtics before they traded for KG and Allen, a move that Morey helped orchestrate.

I wish things could have been worked out with Adelman, but to quote Morey: "Things aren't always black and white".
Adelman did a great job during his time here but was he the right coach moving forward?
Morey was talking to Adelman for four straight days, trying to work things out and obviously ultimatley felt that a change was needed. I don't blame him. Not yet, anyway.
Let's at least give the new coach a chance.

It's a superstars league and the Rockets won't compete until they get a superstar. There are only about ten or so of them out there, so to get one you have to be either lucky, bad or both.
The Rockets won't ever try to purposely tank under Leslie Alexander, so it really comes down to free-agency and trade.
We're in a good position to go after a superstar in both.
Now all we need is pactience and well ... luck.

thank you, voice of reason.

I'll just quote you from now on. Save me the agony.

Wurd!

I share these exact sentiments. There is but so much a GM (good or bad) can do. He put together some good teams. And you also have to keep in mind that our current team was meant to be built around Yao. So with the centerpiece missing, of course the roster doesn't make much sense. Had we not been bitten by the injury bug so freakin much over the latter part of the decade, we would be singing a much different tune about Morey and his genius.

[Baller 24]

I can see where everyone is coming from with their takes, I understand some of the critical points (building around Yao as the center piece), but I have to understand something. Sure it's a business, but KNOWING your center is that injury prone, KNOWING going into the season of '10 you're not going to have him, and KNOWING going into the '11 season that he's had 4 out of his last 5 years he's been HURT, it's his job to address those issues, maybe not get rid of him completely, but going in a different direction?

Fact of the matter is this: the Rockets offense statistically speaking and from a view-pont the Rockets offense is absolutely beautiful without Yao, like there's no doubt about it, with his inability to play the high-post. I'm just dumbfounded on the idea that it took him 2 ENTIRE seasons of Yao's absence (all but 5 games), that he's now deciding on going in a different direction in terms of how the roster is built. He took a HUGE gamble that he in his right mind KNEW wouldn't pay off considering the chances of Yao being healthy for an entire season are less than 50%. I've heard that in numerous interviews over the last 2 years, something along the lines of "well, we think with Yao on the floor, this team is a contender, and it's a chance we're willing to take". That confuses me.

-x-, you've made some good points, but I've also got some questions regarding some of these points.

I'd take Morey over any GM in the league and would extent him for life if possible.
Is he perfect? No. But nobody is and his postives by far outweigh the negatives.

This is where I have a problem with, even before coming into this season and creating the big three (I don't want to use this as the bold point considering there might have been tampering issues) I would have without a doubt taken Pat Riley. Now I don't know if it's his negotiation tactics or his ability to use a certain forecasting accuracy model, but Riley's '05 and '04 off-seasons are enough to justify his hiring. Sam Presti, absolutely amazing job with what he's done creating the roster for OKC, Danny Ainge continues to make chances to his significantly old and experienced roster to contend every single season. And again, that started with what he was GIVEN with, R.C. Buford is known to make chances when he has to, grab the players he needs to, and is absolutely amazing at scouting.

Do you think any other GM would have been able to put this team in a better position than it is now? I highly doubt it.

I'm having a problem understanding this concept, in what position are we "better"? This team is built to trade, he's just waiting to cash in on his so called "assets", the Rockets are NOT players in the free agency market anytime soon, they aren't a high lottery pick that can attain a potential franchise player, nor are there enough assets on this team that can land us a superstar, nobody wants our players. I've been reading that many say the Rockets are just one or two moves away, main one would be adding a defensive anchor, what good does that do? That just puts us in the category of the Denver Nuggets, a team that's capable of lighting up the stat sheet offensively, but also good enough in the low post to "bang".

You can't blame Morey for the card he was dealt and the lack of health of two superstars.
If Yao and T-Mac would have stayed healthy, the Rockets would be perennial contenders. The fact that he got anything out of one of the two unproducitve albatros contracts should be a positive. The T-Mac trade was good back then and it still is, no matter how things turned out in NY.

No one is blaming him, I think that he did a fabulous job of putting together some depth and talent his first season ('08), but after that, he should have known in the off-season of '09, that things had to change, he had 2 ENTIRE years, it's the GM's job to STOP continuing to build around Yao. As for the NY trade, just explain to me who won the trade? Everyone laughed at the notion that the Knicks will have the ability to land two max all-star/superstar level players, that was their plan, the Knicks got what they want, and they're about one or two moves in the off-season away from being a contender in the east. If the Rockets had kept McGrady's expiring contract, with a few roster tweaks here and there, we'd have the cap space necessary to make critical moves (teams wanted MONEY, trade exceptions, not the load of assets we've complied).

You can't blame Morey for the team not being in the playoff the last two years.
This isn't the NFL. Transition takes time and there usually are only a handful of teams that can win it all.

Agreed, but can you explain to me what kind of transition we're heading towards? It doesn't seem pretty at all, our only chance at a superstar this off-season is Chris Paul, and I'm more than willing to take that chance, but the question still remains, do we have the best package to offer? Are the assets enough? It's the only chance to also potentially lure in another superstar, that seems to be the new "trend" going on these days thanks to the super friends in Miami.

The Rockets aren't stuck. At all.
We have no bad contracts, a ton of draft picks, capspace and a team filled with young players.
Teams like the Mavs, Magic, Hawks & Hornets are stuck. They may be in the playoffs now, but where are they going? They aren't good enough to win now and their rosters being filled with overpaid players will hinder them to compete any time soon.

We don't have the cap space. Our contracts are good, but we've still got a few bad ones, and draft picks aren't high. Out of those teams you listed, the Hawks, and possibly the Hornets (with Okafors contract), are the only ones stuck. Magic have bad contracts, but they've at the same time got players that teams are willing to TRADE for, and they've got the three-time DPOY and perennial MVP candidate, and the best center in the league for the last 4 years in Dwight Howard. We don't know what the future holds for the Magic, for now however, and if they can attain Dwight, they definitely aren't stuck. Mavs? In what way are they stuck? They've had a contending roster build around the impact of Dirk (which has been tremendous), for a decade now, they aren't scared of taking risks, which they've shown, but they definitely aren't stuck to say the least. Considering they're still considered contenders, have been for over a decade, and will continue to be.

When I say the Rockets are stuck, I'm stating that they're stuck in a mediocre cycle where they're not good enough to make the playoffs or therefore make any noise in the playoffs, not high enough to attain a potential franchise lottery pick, no cap space, but just a ton of players that teams aren't giving up their superstar for. I just consider that the mediocre cycle, a team that will remain the same every single season, can't go up or go down, just STUCK in the same position.

Having a good GM is absolutely critical, but there's only so much a good GM can do, only so much he has control over. Sometimes it's simply better being lucky than good.
]Where would the Bulls be now, had they not gotten lucky in the lottery?
Where would the Lakers be had they not gotten handed Gasol for Kwame Brown?

The Gasol trade wasn't bad at all, the Grizzlies and their fan base are actually very happy with the success it created with that trade, and on top of that they're the Lakers, they had the 2nd best SG of all-time and of the greatest players of all-time in Kobe Bryant. Actually, I'd like to comment that even BEFORE the Gasol trade happened, the Lakers were in first place, so this is just plainly point blank.

Where would the Heat be if not for a historic pairing of two superstars and an All-star?

Again, superstar was in place, coming off of a championship, they already attained to their goal, collapsed, but still had their critical superstar in place, made the CORRECT cap space moves (note Pat Riley), that allowed them to be players which dated all the way back to December of '07.

Where were the Celtics before they traded for KG and Allen

Again, franchise player in Pierce was already molded, it was just about finishing up the rest, and YES this my point exactly when the opportunity raised itself, Danny Ainge took control and made the moves to execute these trades, that's my POINT exactly. The Celtics did not get lucky, Danny Ainge just executed the puzzle right.

a move that Morey helped orchestrate.

LOL what? Daryl Morey had NOTHING to do with creating the Celtics Big Three, in the summer of 2007, Daryl Morey was the official general manager of the Houston Rockets, actually on draft day he was busy picking Aaron Brooks, and finding a way to get Carl Landry, while the Celtics made the move for Allen with the 5th pick during the NBA draft. So I don't understand how Morey helped another team attain these players, when he was the general manager for the Rockets.

I wish things could have been worked out with Adelman, but to quote Morey: "Things aren't always black and white".
Adelman did a great job during his time here but was he the right coach moving forward?
Morey was talking to Adelman for four straight days, trying to work things out and obviously ultimatley felt that a change was needed. I don't blame him. Not yet, anyway.
Let's at least give the new coach a chance.

Agreed, but my problem is what's the reasoning behind the Rockets doing so?

It's a superstars league and the Rockets won't compete until they get a superstar. There are only about ten or so of them out there, so to get one you have to be either lucky, bad or both.
The Rockets won't ever try to purposely tank under Leslie Alexander, so it really comes down to free-agency and trade.
We're in a good position to go after a superstar in both.
Now all we need is pactience and well ... luck.

Agreed, I'm waiting 1 year. This is the year that we will really see what Daryl Morey is really made of, coming into an off-season where he isn't dedicated and focused around Yao (which he should have quit in two years ago), but I'm agreeing, let's see what he's made of.

[x-]

Now I understand why some guys didn't bother.

Oh well... I'll respond later. Maybe.

[Baller 24]

It's cool, lol I've been vey bored, and I'm not going to lie, it feels good to post sometimes

[Ribalding]

Name one other team who managed a winning season with 2/3 of their salary cap in street clothes. You don't do that unless someone (read: "Morey") was able to find lots of cheap talent. Period. End of discussion.

[Baller 24]

Well shouldn't a majority of that credit go to the coach? Adelman is the only coach that's been here during Morey's official tenure as GM for the Rockets. He utilized those players to their fullest ability, and very effectively with his beautiful offense put into place these past two seasons.

[rocketsballin]

^^ good point. i dunno if phil jackson could get a winning record with this team. rick's offense system is arguably the best in the league. with no stars or closers we really need a good offensive system and he was PERFECT. a starting defensive center would put us in the playoffs, then we can work our way from there.

[x-]

First of all let me say that I didn't follow the NBA nearly as closely as I do now until the end of 2008, so it's impossible for me to comment on most moves (especially the minor ones) that were made before then, because I frankly don't remember most circumstances.

That being said, let me try to respond to some of your points.

This is where I have a problem with, even before coming into this season and creating the big three (I don't want to use this as the bold point considering there might have been tampering issues) I would have without a doubt taken Pat Riley. Now I don't know if it's his negotiation tactics or his ability to use a certain forecasting accuracy model, but Riley's '05 and '04 off-seasons are enough to justify his hiring.

Riley had the #5 pick in 03, one of the best drafts ever. Thanks to Detroit taking Darko at #2 and Toronto taking Bosh at #4, Miami was able to get Wade. That's luck if you ask me.
Riley had the opportunity to trade for a superstar in Shaq, because Shaq demanded a trade. That's being fortunate.
Fortunate: "having good fortune; receiving good from uncertain or unexpected sources; lucky"

From what I remember Riley did a good job rounding out their championship roster, but other than that and the fact that he got lucky that the three superfriends wanted to pair up in south beach, how good of a GM is he?
Will will credit him for guys wanting to live in South Beach? Do we credit Donnie Walsh that the most superstars are attention whores that want to play in NY?
Riley's draft record isn't exactly great. The blatant tank job in 2008 didn't get them anywhere. I can't comment on the contracts he handed out prior to this season, because I didn't pay attention, but the Mike Miller contract was questionable at best.

Sam Presti, absolutely amazing job with what he's done creating the roster for OKC.

Sam Presti has done a very good job, no doubt. He's definitley a top-5 GM. I'd probably put him right behind Morey. Is he better than Morey though?

When Presti took over he was fortunate to have to have the #2 pick in the 07 draft.
The Blazers took Oden at #1 and the Thunder were able to get Durant at #2. That's getting lucky. Where would the Thunder be now if the Blazers take Durant instead of Oden?
Presti did a good job blowing up the team though. I could go into details about his draft record, but let's save time and say that despite a few misses, he's probably one of the best at evaluating talent in the leauge and has done a tremendous job building this Thunder team.

Danny Ainge continues to make chances to his significantly old and experienced roster to contend every single season.

Ainge is a good GM, yes.
Again, though. Where would the Celtics be had they not gotten fortunate that two teams decided to blow up their team?

R.C. Buford is known to make chances when he has to, grab the players he needs to, and is absolutely amazing at scouting.

Yeah, Buford is another great GM, no question.
Where would the Spurs be though, had they not tanked in 1996 and gotten lucky in the lottery?

Don't get me wrong here, those are very good GM's but there's only so much you can control. You need to get lucky to be successful in this league.

I'm having a problem understanding this concept, in what position are we "better"?

I'm not sure you understood my point. What I meant was that no other GM would have been able to put the Rockets in a better situation than Morey has done.
Houston isn't New York or L.A.. The situation when Morey took over in Houston was completely different to the one in Seattle when Presti took over. Leslie Alexander will always try to put a competive team out there. You can't blame Morey for things that aren't in his control. There's only so much he can do.

This team is built to trade, he's just waiting to cash in on his so called "assets", the Rockets are NOT players in the free agency market anytime soon, they aren't a high lottery pick that can attain a potential franchise player, nor are there enough assets on this team that can land us a superstar, nobody wants our players.

The team is built to trade, yes. Is this the best strategy? Probably not, since superstars aren't traded often and losing gets rewarded more heaviely than it should, but again and I can't stress this enough, Leslie Alexander will not let this team tank and I'm thankful for that, to be honest.
Depending on the CBA and future moves we could be free-agency players both this and next year. It won't be hard the make the proper moves to free up cap space.
I also don't buy that nobody wants our players/assets. If the Hornets are going to blow it up and trade Paul, a package of Lowry, Hill, Thabeet and say three first round picks should be right up there with the best of them.

No one is blaming him, I think that he did a fabulous job of putting together some depth and talent his first season ('08), but after that, he should have known in the off-season of '09, that things had to change, he had 2 ENTIRE years, it's the GM's job to STOP continuing to build around Yao.

That's easy to say in hindsight. In reality though you don't just give up on a superstar like Yao.

As for the NY trade, just explain to me who won the trade? Everyone laughed at the notion that the Knicks will have the ability to land two max all-star/superstar level players, that was their plan, the Knicks got what they want, and they're about one or two moves in the off-season away from being a contender in the east. If the Rockets had kept McGrady's expiring contract, with a few roster tweaks here and there, we'd have the cap space necessary to make critical moves (teams wanted MONEY, trade exceptions, not the load of assets we've complied).

I didn't say that the Knicks lost the trade. They overpaid at the time, but it obviously turned out just fine for them, so I don't mind labeling them a winner in the trade.
That doesn't make the Rockets the loser though. The trade helped both teams. Jordan Hill isn't anything special, but he still holds positive valule and while the pick swap didn't work out, we still own NY's first rounder in 2012, which will be a very deep draft.
I don't buy the cap space argument. Which max guy would have come here? Trading McGrady was the right move.

Magic have bad contracts, but they've at the same time got players that teams are willing to TRADE for, and they've got the three-time DPOY and perennial MVP candidate, and the best center in the league for the last 4 years in Dwight Howard. We don't know what the future holds for the Magic, for now however, and if they can attain Dwight, they definitely aren't stuck.

The Magic have very limited assets. There's no player on their roster, other than Howard, that holds a lot of trade value. Most of their players are past their prime and there are only a few Magic players who are not overpaid. Arenas has the worst contract in the leauge and Turkoglu is up there as well. It won't matter if they keep Howard or not, because he won't be able to win on his own.

Mavs? In what way are they stuck? They've had a contending roster build around the impact of Dirk (which has been tremendous), for a decade now, they aren't scared of taking risks, which they've shown, but they definitely aren't stuck to say the least. Considering they're still considered contenders, have been for over a decade, and will continue to be.

The Mavs are pretenders, not contenders. They're good, but not quite good enough. They have no shot beating the Lakers, Thunder or Heat. None.
Similar to the Magic most of their players are past their prime and a bunch of them are overpaid. From here on out it'll only go downhill for the Mavs.

When I say the Rockets are stuck, I'm stating that they're stuck in a mediocre cycle where they're not good enough to make the playoffs or therefore make any noise in the playoffs, not high enough to attain a potential franchise lottery pick, no cap space, but just a ton of players that teams aren't giving up their superstar for. I just consider that the mediocre cycle, a team that will remain the same every single season, can't go up or go down, just STUCK in the same position.

Again, we are only a couple of moves away fom being in a position to be a player in free-agency both this and year. Tanking won't happen under Alexander and just because a trade for superstar hasn't happend yet, doesn't mean our players are worthless trash nobody wants.

The Gasol trade wasn't bad at all, the Grizzlies and their fan base are actually very happy with the success it created with that trade, and on top of that they're the Lakers, they had the 2nd best SG of all-time and of the greatest players of all-time in Kobe Bryant. Actually, I'd like to comment that even BEFORE the Gasol trade happened, the Lakers were in first place, so this is just plainly point blank.

I didn't say the trade was bad for Memphis. They should have gotten more at the time, but it obviously worked out for them. That doesn't change the fact though that it was a great deal for L.A.. There's no way they beat the Celtics in 2009 and 2010 without Gasol. No chance whatsoever. The Lakers were good before they got Gasol, yes, but they were pretenders. Getting Gasol made that team a dynasty.

Again, franchise player in Pierce was already molded, it was just about finishing up the rest, and YES this my point exactly when the opportunity raised itself, Danny Ainge took control and made the moves to execute these trades, that's my POINT exactly. The Celtics did not get lucky, Danny Ainge just executed the puzzle right.

Yeah give Ainge credit for executing these trades, but if it weren't for two teams blowing it up it couldn't have happend. That's something a GM, no matter how good he is can't control.

LOL what? Daryl Morey had NOTHING to do with creating the Celtics Big Three, in the summer of 2007, Daryl Morey was the official general manager of the Houston Rockets, actually on draft day he was busy picking Aaron Brooks, and finding a way to get Carl Landry, while the Celtics made the move for Allen with the 5th pick during the NBA draft. So I don't understand how Morey helped another team attain these players, when he was the general manager for the Rockets.

From this year's Sloan Sports Conference (twitter quotes):
"Wyc Grousbeck, co-owner of #Celtics, just said Daryl Morey helped formulate a plan back in 2003 on how to get Kevin Garnett in Boston"
"Grousbeck: Sat down w/Daryl Morey, to figure out how we can win a championship, looking through history. We needed a top-50 player. KG"

Agreed, but my problem is what's the reasoning behind the Rockets doing so?

From what I understand it came down to different philosophies on how to move forward.

To finish this post off, let me ask you this.:
What's the goal here? Is the goal building a perennial playoff team or is it building a dynasty?
Would you be happy being a playoff team like the Mavs that year after year is up there in the 50+ wins, but never is actually quite good enough. Or do you have the patience to go through some mediocre years to become a perennial contending team that has the chance to become a dynasty like the Thunder?
If it's the latter then be that. Patient. History has shown that over time an opportunity will come along. It'll take some luck, maybe a lot of luck, but sooner or later good will come to those who wait. If you have a good GM that puts you in that position, that is and I have zero doubt that Morey is that guy.

Happy Easter to you religious folks.

[Baller 24]

Riley had the #5 pick in 03, one of the best drafts ever. Thanks to Detroit taking Darko at #2 and Toronto taking Bosh at #4, Miami was able to get Wade. That's luck if you ask me.
Riley had the opportunity to trade for a superstar in Shaq, because Shaq demanded a trade. That's being fortunate.

The Shaq rumors were wild, Miami, Orlando, Dallas, we even saw rumors that the Kings were after to trade him, but it's good GMing, when you can obtain and talk (or scam) your way into trading the crap they did to get Shaq, bravo I say. In the off-season of '05, he was absolute money, I mean he took care of the business (IIRC it was the largest trade at the time in the history of the NBA). And after the championship collapse, HE was the one who formulated the plot to acquiring these three guys PRIOR to their discussion (Summer Olympics '08), my point being he was the one that started the plot in December of '07 when he started to close out the cap space, if there was tampering that took place, than fine, but the fact that he had the idea to create a possible dynasty like this, than well I'm sorry, it's bravo to him.

Ainge is a good GM, yes.
Again, though. Where would the Celtics be had they not gotten fortunate that two teams decided to blow up their team?

Garnett was statistically coming off of one of the best seasons of his career IIRC, despite his team being terrible in the W column, however I wouldn't call it "good" fortune. We can argue all we want about good fortune, and opportunities that persisted themselves, but Morey's had his chances (Melo, Dwill just to name a few). The Sonics were looking to unload all of their contracts, Lewis was coming off of his, and they had the 2nd pick in the NBA draft, it was clear Allen was on the way out, but when the opportunity persisted itself, Ainge took control, and with the KG discussions, Boston was NEVER mentioned, they came out of the black hole themselves, considering Suns and Lakers were the biggest rumors.

Yeah, Buford is another great GM, no question.
Where would the Spurs be though, had they not tanked in 1996 and gotten lucky in the lottery?

Okay, lets start here. Getting lucky is one thing, but continuing to BUILD around after the decline of Robinson and the prime of Duncan is what's impressive of him. He found the right players in Parker and Manu (who is EASILY a top 5 SG in this day in age), his idea to bring in Bruce Bowen. It's not as easy as saying "oh they tanked, that's why they're lucky, and he's lucky". Executing those roles of a championship GM are a must, but again until there are rings around the GM's finger, they're ALL better and higher in ranking than Daryl. BTW, it was an injury that derailed the Spurs (Robinson blowing his knees), and they weren't even favored to win that draft lottery. Duncan SHOULD have

Don't get me wrong here, those are very good GM's but there's only so much you can control. You need to get lucky to be successful in this league.

Yes, but come on, calling Daryl the best General Manager in the NBA is by far a stretch, he's IMHO significantly overrated. He's made some absolutely TERRIBLE moves on his behalf, and I'd go as far as to say that he's got more BAD moves than GOOD ones.

I'm not sure you understood my point. What I meant was that no other GM would have been able to put the Rockets in a better situation than Morey has done.

You know who Daryl Morey reminds me of ? Bryan Colangelo. He in a matter of ONE season turned the Suns into contenders for three-four consecutive years. He worked great with the tools he was GIVEN with, but once he took that Toronto Raptors job, and got a fresh start on to build a roster in the direction that HE WANTS, he failed---miserably.

Houston isn't New York or L.A.. The situation when Morey took over in Houston was completely different to the one in Seattle when Presti took over. Leslie Alexander will always try to put a competive team out there. You can't blame Morey for things that aren't in his control. There's only so much he can do.

Trading a offensive liability/defensive star for a THIRD OPTION, that the Rockets desperately needed in 2007 and so forth in Rudy Gay? That absolutely wasn't the best start. With the players he STARTED out with he did a great job surrounding them with depth, and a contributing supporting cast (Artest, Scola, Landry, etc). BUT, he's been mediocre afterwords. I wouldn't call anything after the Artest trade a great move. He got himself out of a terrible contract in Ariza with Lee, but

The team is built to trade, yes. Is this the best strategy? Probably not, since superstars aren't traded often and losing gets rewarded more heaviely than it should, but again and I can't stress this enough, Leslie Alexander will not let this team tank and I'm thankful for that, to be honest.
Depending on the CBA and future moves we could be free-agency players both this and next year. It won't be hard the make the proper moves to free up cap space.

The cap is likely to reduce in the new CBA, so being players this year is not happening unless we can unload some long-term contracts, but question is who would take them?

I also don't buy that nobody wants our players/assets. If the Hornets are going to blow it up and trade Paul, a package of Lowry, Hill, Thabeet and say three first round picks should be right up there with the best of them.

Expecting the Hornets to pay 5+ million and then 6 million next season to Thabeet is not happening, and we've seen Hill, he's absolutely not good enough. The Lakers can come in there and offer a package with Bynum and ABSOLUTELY squash any offer we could come up with, IF the Celtics wanted to they could offer a package surrounding Rondo, IF the Clippers wanted to they could offer a package surrounding Eric Gordon, I mean there are COUNTLESS teams that can beat our offer IMHO, I honestly hope he proves me wrong, but I don't believe we can make it happen (again I'll gladly eat my words if he can prove me wrong).

That's easy to say in hindsight. In reality though you don't just give up on a superstar like Yao.

You do. The best GMs in the past have given up after contending seasons building around injury prone players, the Rockets saga with Yao just went on TOO damn long. After the 2009 NBA season, Yao missed over 20+ games im '06, '07, and '08, while they knew going into the off-season he's going to miss all 82 and never regain the same dominant form. Blazers gave up on Bill Walton in the '70s after winning a championship, the Rockets are an example, as they gave up on the twin-tower duo that brought them championship hopes. If it's based on injuries and doesn't work out, you've got to move onto a different direction. Morey KNEW this, we KNEW this, and many even stressed this factor. Gambling on a player to change the direction of a roster for two-seasons is a bit TOO much, and thats really his fault.

I didn't say that the Knicks lost the trade. They overpaid at the time, but it obviously turned out just fine for them, so I don't mind labeling them a winner in the trade.
That doesn't make the Rockets the loser though. The trade helped both teams. Jordan Hill isn't anything special, but he still holds positive valule and while the pick swap didn't work out, we still own NY's first rounder in 2012, which will be a very deep draft.
I don't buy the cap space argument. Which max guy would have come here? Trading McGrady was the right move.

The Knicks 2012 pick means very little to them considering with rumors of them grabbing a few more players in the off-season making coaching changes, that pick MIGHT be a late first-ronder than what many Rockets fans at the time thought a early first-rounder. And no I don't think a max guy would have came, but building up the cap space could have been essential, you don't HAVE to spend the money just because you have it, so stupidly the Pistons did in the summer of '09.

The Magic have very limited assets. There's no player on their roster, other than Howard, that holds a lot of trade value. Most of their players are past their prime and there are only a few Magic players who are not overpaid. Arenas has the worst contract in the leauge and Turkoglu is up there as well. It won't matter if they keep Howard or not, because he won't be able to win on his own

.
[/quote]

Can't predict that. He got them to the Finals in '09 with a similar cast. They're better flat out as long as they keep him. They've got some bad contracts yes, but they've also got some tradable players, and I'd like to think of this as the Melo situation. If CP3 tells his agent, I'm not playing anywhere except Orlando, than it's the best interest to trade him, than let him walk anywhere else for nothing. Denver was FORCED to do that, they didn't want to loes him for anything, why would CP3 go there? Um duh Dwight Howard, so like I said, as long as Dwight remains, there are moves that can be done, absolutely no doubt.

The Mavs are pretenders, not contenders. They're good, but not quite good enough. They have no shot beating the Lakers, Thunder or Heat. None.
Similar to the Magic most of their players are past their prime and a bunch of them are overpaid. From here on out it'll only go downhill for the Mavs

.

? How is a team that went 19-1 during a point in the season a pretender? They were on winning streaks 10+ twice in the regular season, they SWEPT the Heat, broke even with the Lakers/Thunder, and with their superstar they were 55-18 (without him they were 2-7---their worst stretch of the season). Don't understand this post, considering they've been labeled contenders, they make moves to HELP them be contenders, they take the risks necessary for them to BE contenders. And it really confuses me when you state they have no chance, considering they were one of the top 5 teams in the league this season.

Again, we are only a couple of moves away fom being in a position to be a player in free-agency both this and year. Tanking won't happen under Alexander and just because a trade for superstar hasn't happend yet, doesn't mean our players are worthless trash nobody wants.

I'm just stating no superstar aside from CP3 is currently available, and there are numerous teams that can pounce our offers. How are we a couple of moves away from being a player in free-agency? Trading Shane Battier actually hurt our cause, the cap is suppose to REDUCE, unless we unload guys like Scola, Martin, decide not to resign Hayes, Thabeet, and Brad Miller, our chances are slim. And what good is it IF there is nobody worth attaining in the class of 2011?

I didn't say the trade was bad for Memphis. They should have gotten more at the time, but it obviously worked out for them. That doesn't change the fact though that it was a great deal for L.A.. There's no way they beat the Celtics in 2009 and 2010 without Gasol. No chance whatsoever. The Lakers were good before they got Gasol, yes, but they were pretenders. Getting Gasol made that team a dynasty.

Pretenders? come on, they had the best player in the game on their team, and Andrew Bynum was anchoring the team defense, they were the NUMBER 1 seed before, and by a SOLID margin, they were dominating teams in the western conference like no other. And the Lakers actually LOST in '08 with Gasol. Sure they don't get far with him at all, but the Grizzlies got the best offer, Marc Gasol was going to play for John Calipari, but declined the invitation to play overseas (best idea), at the time everyone KNEW he was going to come in and be SOLID, so the risk was actually worth it for the Lakers to draft earlier on.

Yeah give Ainge credit for executing these trades, but if it weren't for two teams blowing it up it couldn't have happend. That's something a GM, no matter how good he is can't control.

And you're acting like Daryl Morey hasn't had opportunities to attain players that are at all-star/super-star level!?!? Come on, the opportunities persisted themselves, it's up to a general manager to do all he can do attain these players, that's what separates the great ones and bottom.

From this year's Sloan Sports Conference (twitter quotes):
"Wyc Grousbeck, co-owner of #Celtics, just said Daryl Morey helped formulate a plan back in 2003 on how to get Kevin Garnett in Boston"
"Grousbeck: Sat down w/Daryl Morey, to figure out how we can win a championship, looking through history. We needed a top-50 player. KG"

2003? Umm, that was KG's season where he was 2nd in MVP voting, where he was statistically dominant from almost every category, where the following season in '04 he eclipsed even the '03 season. KG at the time was on the level of current LeBron James and Kobe Bryant, absolutely unattainable and untouchable. You couldn't get him, I'm sure he formulated a plan, but would Minny have listend? I absolutely DOUBT it. 4 years later the Celtics team was completely different, so whatever plan that Daryl formulated in '03 was definitely not influenced to peruse and a player 4 entire years later, considering Ainge was the mastermind behind what took place in the summer of 2007, NOT Daryl Morey. And ANY credit given to him I would absolutely hilarious IMHO, considering he hadn't had anything to do with the Boston Celtics organization since '06.

To finish this post off, let me ask you this.:
What's the goal here? Is the goal building a perennial playoff team or is it building a dynasty?
Would you be happy being a playoff team like the Mavs that year after year is up there in the 50+ wins, but never is actually quite good enough. Or do you have the patience to go through some mediocre years to become a perennial contending team that has the chance to become a dynasty like the Thunder?

Of course something of the Thunder's plan, but to execute that plan it involves two years of attaining pretty HIGH lottery picks.

If it's the latter then be that. Patient. History has shown that over time an opportunity will come along. It'll take some luck, maybe a lot of luck, but sooner or later good will come to those who wait. If you have a good GM that puts you in that position, that is and I have zero doubt that Morey is that guy.

It's not that I don't think he's a good GM, or the right GM, it's the fact that I consider his abilities overrated in the city of Houston. I mean I can understand that, Rockets fans will be biased with their point of view, but this is actually his first seasons test, to see what he's really made of since the organization is going in a direction that we really don't know where it's headed. I kind of think of the Morey situation like the Yao v Dwight situation a couple of years ago, and based on polls, nobody, and I mean nobody outside of the state of Texas (polls), considered Yao to be Dwight's superior, and I consider it the same thing, if ESPN were to put up a big map of Morey's GMing skills, I'm sure it would turn out the same, not that it's a bad thing to be a homer (CF is filled with them), but I'm just trying to understand what really makes this dude so special.

[kam_soluusar]

Y'all know where I stand on Adelma. The only dumb thing he did was trade Landry off. Okay, we got Martin out of the deal, but that move STILL irks me.

Apart from that, i'll reserve judgement until the A/S break next year, (if there is an A/S break next year, if there is a season!)

[Aaron Brooks]

A season ago many thought we ripped the Knicks of their heart out, but it was actually the other way around. We got a player that the Knicks already addressed the following problems to in Jordan Hill: Horrible hands, can't pass, turnover/foul prone, low BBall IQ. We did a "pick-swap" that we adversely thought until the month of December that was going to fall in our favor, a injury-prone unclutch, non-iso, off the dribble shooter in Kevin Martin (though I have to admit he had arguably his best season ever, so I'll give him props). While in return we gave up Tracy McGrady (massive 24 million in expiring), and Carl Landry (our best closer at the time and emerging/thriving prospect).

While I don't see much upside in Hill, I do believe its way too early to judge him. A lot of fans want someone like DeAndre Jordan who had a mini-breakout year (his 4th year). Hill showed promise his rookie year but regressed this year, but he also had family problems this year which may have affected his focus. He also started playing ball late, making him a project going into the draft.

The Landry for Martin swap is a no brainer, we traded our PF depth to fill a hole in our SG spot. We got the best player available while filling a position of need. While Landry was our best closer, Martin is our most efficient player. I also don't see how you can call Landry an emerging/thriving prospect when Martin is only 7 months older than Carl.

The Knicks are actually the team that won, they at the end of the day got the two players they wanted, two players with significant impact that are capable of building a team around. Something WE would kill to have in Houston. This season the Shane Battier trade made absolutely no sense to me, trading a 7 million dollar expiring for a player that'll still be under contract until next season making 5 million this year, and 6 million next year, that is KNOWN to be worst offensively than Jordan Hill, and stupider than Stromile Swift.

Why are we judging the trade by what the Knicks were able to accomplish with their capspace? We're also in a different situation, the NY market makes it easier to entice superstar caliber players. If someone like Amare or Melo wanted to come to Houston, we could've made it happen as well. The reason we traded Battier and Brooks was because of their FA status, Morey stated that he didn't want to overpay to retain them (paraphrasing) so we got 2 prospects and 2 picks. Battier wasn't gonna help a rebuilding team like ours anyways.

Morey also stated that he doesn't want to overpay for players when we're not contenders, because that will cripple us when/if we get to that point

I don't know, people I read named the "Adelman" release the worst or 2nd worst move Daryl Morey has ever made, but there are just countless ones that make absolute no sense to see where this franchise is headed, if the job is to compile a bunch of prospects and picks to trade for a superstar, the time is running out and the team itself hasn't shown it's attractiveness. He got rid of a problem that he attained in the off season in '09 signing Trevor Ariza to the MLE (fantastic move for Lee), which I praise, but letting Ron Artest walk the way he did was also absolutely terrible, considering he was coming off of one of his best and most calm shooting seasons to date and we gave up our 2009 first round pick for him.

Ron Artest sucks, he disappeared after game 3 of the Lakers series, he shouldn't be a 1st, 2nd or 3rd option at this point in his career. He also wanted to be a Laker.

From the moves that actually make sense, the only ones during his tenure that come to mind as "fantastic" would probably be the Lee, Lowry, Scola, Artest (although again letting him go the way he did was a terrible decision) trade, he's been good (fair to say considering he also tried Dorsey) at scouting, which I haven't had many problems with (Brooks, Patterson, Landry, Bud), but the direction of this trade is something of suspect, I don't view this man as a genius, I don't consider him a secret weapon, considering the Rockets are stuck in a cycle of mediocre when they're in the brink of making the playoffs (and losing in the first round if they do), and in the brink of being a lottery team without attaining a top 3 draft pick that will likely land us a potential franchise player (which is exactly what I consider the mediocre cycle). Unless something miraculous happens this next year (which I'll gladly eat my own words), this guy has been unimpressive to say the least. I'm giving him 1 more season of respect from me personally speaking, before I lose all respect.

Under Morey, the Rockets have gone through a couple of rebuilding phases:
-Build the team around Yao and TMac
-TMac is done, Surround Yao with Shooters
-No TMac, No Yao, uptempo treadmill team with Adelman

We would be stuck in basketball purgatory if we kept Adelman. As much as I love Rick, he would get us competing for the 8th spot every year. Not good enough to contend, and not bad enough to get a top 5 pick. It was a hard decision that had to be made.

Next year will be the 1st year of Morey's team that he built from scratch.

[Aaron Brooks]

As for the Battier/Gay trade, it was the right move at the time, with Yao and TMac (Healthy) we needed defensive wing to lighten the load for TMac. Besides, its not like Gay would have been given free reign to develop like he has in Memphis.

[rocketsballin]

u guys have unconditional love for morey to come with posts that long. /greenfont

i wasnt opposed to the batteir trade. it was a move to make us contenders, didnt turn out well. im such a big battier fan that he's been in all of my nba2k teams. right now i have him as a backup wing. if morey makes some moves to be a playoff team this offseason, i really hope he gets battier here.