MVP Derrick Rose, I am disappoint.

[ElPolloLoco]

The Bulls have Boozer, who is an elite offensive player, Deng, Rose, Korver, who are all great offensive players. They also have Noah who is descent.

They should be #11.[/quote]

LOL

[andrewww]

this:

"Rose shooting 35% is a product of himself and the make-up of the team. Putting it solely on his shoulders, while completely ignoring the context of it all, is laughable. Does Rose deserve criticism? Hell yes. He does. I'm sure he's banging his head against a wall right now, and I'm not even kidding. He knows he's played poorly. But let's not sit back and pretend like he was on easy street here. Coming into the game last night, Boozer had a PER of 7.9 with a TS% of .421 while playing the third most amount of minutes on the team. When you receive that kind of ''help'' from your supposed second-best player, I don't know what you frankly expect."

Rose has the new superstar feel to him, hence the jock riding by the media and some fans, and with that you get haters.

imo he's much improved from last yr, but to say he's clearly the best pg in the game is doing a dis service to chris paul and deron williams, the two best all around pgs who are most certainly in the discussion for best pg in the game.

but for some people to say he's the best? he may be the mvp, but i think players like the 2 prima donnas in lbj/wade, durant, kobe, dirk, howard, cp3, and deron id take over him right now. then you have westbrook, melo, and amar'e in the next tier along with rose for me.

[jax98]

For someone who followed the game for many years, I'm wondering what went through your head with this ridiculous statement. Dribbling the ball up every single time is the very definition of running the point, to point this out as some kind of remarkable feat for Rose is absolutely laughable.

Reading is fundamental.

Here's what I said:

He dribbles the ball up every single time. He's the one creating the offense every single time.

So you kind of left that last point out, which is the greater point.

But I feel that I have to elaborate with you, so I will:

Dribbling up the court is the job of the point guard. We agree on this. However, when said point guard is your sole creator, primary scorer, primary assist-man while being your first line of defense, you need to find ways to less that burden. Not having a secondary ballhandler only adds to it.

Even prime Dwyane Wade needed players like Jason Williams alongside him, even though he was the primary ballhandler.

If what your saying was true, he'd either be posting much higher assist totals, or Chicago would be one of the worst offenses in the league. Furthermore, it's not not like Indiana is doing a full court press every time and Rose is having to exert a lot of energy.

Eh. You can't really set it up like that. High volume ballhandling does not automatically transfer into assists. Otherwise, Joe Johnson would have averaged 8+ over his last few years in Atlanta.

The Bulls survived on offense over the season due to the following factors:

- Boozer did actually score at a fairly high clip in the 59 games he was healthy.
- Before Boozer's return, Noah was scoring well for a man in his role.
- Deng played his part as a two-dribble max player perfectly.

But the offense as a whole was not strong. Never was. It just had parts that worked within the scheme of Rose leading the way. However, such an offense does not work consistently in the post-season.

Rose has been by far the worse decision maker on the Bulls team.

Actually Boozer has. But Rose catches the flack for it, since he has the ball in his hands much, much more. Having said that, we most certainly agree that he's made way too many mistakes and taken way too many bad decisions. I said as much in my opening post in this thread.

Chicago wins on the defensive side of the ball, all they need is for Rose to be serviceable.

Serviceable can mean a lot of things. Shane Battier is serviceable. If you mean Derrick Rose is not a crucial element to Chicago's success, you'd be wrong.

Watch Rose play and you can clearly see why Chicago's offense is so bad.

In this series, Rose and Chicago's offense have not been mutually exclusive. That's the problem.

Rose has a low basketball IQ, almost all his passes are simple passes hitting guys coming off screens or on pick and pops. These are extremely easy passes that grade schoolers can execute.

Derrick Rose does not have a low basketball IQ, and your reasoning for that is extremely flawed. Him passing to guys coming off screens is a strong basketball play. Would you rather see him play like the Sacramento Kings version of Jason Williams? Because that was low IQ ball.

The problem is Rose has to play that kind of basketball. He has to. The players around him needs to be set up. None have the ability to really read the floor with the ball in their hands. Well Noah kind of does, but it's limited what a center can do on the perimeter.

Hansbrough has done remarkably well fronting Boozer, something that would easily be broken down by a skilled point guard, while Derrick Rose looks clueless and unsure what do do.

Oh right, because Rose should leave Collison (60% 3pt) to double on Hansbrough (33% FG). If he did, it'd be poor defense, so Derrick is actually doing the right thing in this situation.

Can't add much more to this. Well I guess I should have pointed out Deng is the second best player. And maybe if Boozer was able to take 20 shots a game he'd get on track.

I don't disagree that Deng is our second best player. But going into the season, it was expected to be Boozer and he has disappointed in this role in the late stages of the season. Him getting 20 shots right now, would likely not even give him an average of 20 points. He's that bad right now.

Substantive enough?

Better than before, but I still find it ironic that you accuse me of throwing out hyperboles, when you do it far more.

[cwas2882]

I find it laughable that he just had a season that has only happened for 4 other players in NBA history,.

How's that?

[D-31]

[quote="bullsnewdynasty"]Boozer should be taking 20 shots?[ /quote]

Boozer in the playoffs 2 game shooting 50% or below with 20+ FGA, 6 games above 50%

Rose in the playoffs 9 games shooting 50% or below with 20+ FGA, 0 games above 50%



Having the more efficient scorer take more shots, craaaaaaaaaaaaazy.

Morten, I'll try to respond after the Heat game.

[bullsnewdynasty]

Using career stats? Boozer is scoring 12 points on 12 shots, shooting 38% for the series, and has sucked for almost 3 months in a row.

Boozer had a PER of 7.9 with a TS% of .421 while playing the third most amount of minutes on the team.

Boozer was 1-8 on shots in front of the rim in game 3. But I guess Rose doesn't make his teammates better. Maybe Rose can put it in the basket for him somehow.

[Benny Gold]

I find it laughable that he just had a season that has only happened for 4 other players in NBA history, about to become the youngest MVP in league history, in only his 3rd season....

and people say he sucks.

LMAO

Just think of what you guys are saying. Its his 3rd year, he is only 22, and people are making it seem like he has been in the league 10 years and is a primadonna.

lol

Call out his holes...go ahead...he will only get better.

Westbrook recently joined a very small club. In the history of the NBA only five players have had 4000+ points, 1500+ assists, 1000+ rebounds, and 300+ steals in their first three seasons. These players are Oscar Robertson, Penny Hardaway, Chris Paul, Lebron James, and now Russell Westbrook.

I guess Russell Westbrook deserves an MVP award I guess.

[B-Scott]

This is what more intelligent people have been saying all season long. Tom Thibodeu and team defense had much more to do with their wins than Rose.

Rose is a second tier star in this league. He will get to the first tier some day because of his untapped potential but not now. This is why there was so much controversy over his MVP award.

If this was Kobe, Wade, or Lebron playing against the Pacers, they'd average 35ppg on 50+ FG%.

I can make a legit argument that if you replace Kobe with Rose and the Lakers might actually be much better because the Laker BIGS would get higher percentage shots on a consistent basis because D-Rose is much quicker than Kobe, and can get to the rack at will. Results BIGS are wide open for dunks.

In Chicago, Rose has to work a lot harder than Kobe because he doesn't have great BIGS he can just feed to inside the paint who can score 1 on 1 with consistency. The Bulls are a jump shot shooting team that relies on Rose to create basically all their shots for them.

Kobe has the luxury of simply coming down, give it to Bynum and let him go to work..same with Gasol and Lamar. LO can create for Gasol and Bynum as well or himself.

Rose would shoot a higher FG% in LA because once he attacks, if you double...Bynum and Gasol are wide open and can finish

[thedarkstark]

First 2 games: 37.5 ppg, 44% shooting, 7 rebounds 5 assists, taking over in the final 2 minutes
GB says "Derrick Rose proving why he's the MVP!!"

Next 2 games: 8-34 shooting (on a bad ankle) 4 rebounds 8 assists, 1 game winner, 1 loss
GB says: "DERRICK ROSE IS SUCH A SCRUB, NEW IVERSON. CP3 >>>>>> ROSE

Save your stupid changes with the wind opinion until the playoffs are over.

[D-31]

Reading is fundamental.

Here's what I said:

He dribbles the ball up every single time. He's the one creating the offense every single time.

So you kind of left that last point out, which is the greater point.

But I feel that I have to elaborate with you, so I will:

Dribbling up the court is the job of the point guard. We agree on this. However, when said point guard is your sole creator, primary scorer, primary assist-man while being your first line of defense, you need to find ways to less that burden. Not having a secondary ballhandler only adds to it.

Even prime Dwyane Wade needed players like Jason Williams alongside him, even though he was the primary ballhandler.

Bringing the ball up is nothing remarkable. The second part of my response was that if Rose really was creating the offense every single time his stats would be higher, thus proving your hyperbolic statment. Wade needed Williams because he's a SG.

Eh. You can't really set it up like that. High volume ballhandling does not automatically transfer into assists. Otherwise, Joe Johnson would have averaged 8+ over his last few years in Atlanta.

The Bulls survived on offense over the season due to the following factors:

- Boozer did actually score at a fairly high clip in the 59 games he was healthy.
- Before Boozer's return, Noah was scoring well for a man in his role.
- Deng played his part as a two-dribble max player perfectly.

But the offense as a whole was not strong. Never was. It just had parts that worked within the scheme of Rose leading the way. However, such an offense does not work consistently in the post-season.

Joe Johnson was the primary ball handler for several years in Atlanta, but he was not creating for the offense every trip down the court. He put the ball in spots where others could create their own offense, but just because he made the pass to initiate the offense doesn't mean he should get credit for the entire offense.

Actually Boozer has. But Rose catches the flack for it, since he has the ball in his hands much, much more. Having said that, we most certainly agree that he's made way too many mistakes and taken way too many bad decisions. I said as much in my opening post in this thread.

It's understandable for a player like Boozer to not get it going. He might go 6 minutes without getting a touch. I really haven't seen where Boozer is that awful, besides some over passing and some fouls. Sure he's missed some easy shots that he should have made, but I don't see that being too huge of an issue for the long haul. While Rose's issues will have to be corrected in the offseason at the earliest.

Serviceable can mean a lot of things. Shane Battier is serviceable. If you mean Derrick Rose is not a crucial element to Chicago's success, you'd be wrong.

Shane Battier is crucial to Memphis' success. What I'm saying is less can be more. Bulls probably won't win either way, but they certainly wont if Rose tries to put them on his back.

Derrick Rose does not have a low basketball IQ, and your reasoning for that is extremely flawed. Him passing to guys coming off screens is a strong basketball play. Would you rather see him play like the Sacramento Kings version of Jason Williams? Because that was low IQ ball.

I'd rather him have better court vision and passing accuracy. It has nothing to do with being flashy, though some misdirection would help. The point is you hardly ever see him make the more challenging passes. Sure they can be more of a gamble, but doing so would make his teammates better and make it harder for the defense to defend him.

The problem is Rose has to play that kind of basketball. He has to. The players around him needs to be set up. None have the ability to really read the floor with the ball in their hands. Well Noah kind of does, but it's limited what a center can do on the perimeter.

I'd say the bigger problem is that he thinks he has to. Never liked spoon feeding baskets never will. Even some true Pgs have this problem and they'll run into the same problems as Rose even though the approach is different. Doing so will force teammates to rely to much on 1 player, and when that one player gets stopped they're unprepared.

Oh right, because Rose should leave Collison (60% 3pt) to double on Hansbrough (33% FG). If he did, it'd be poor defense, so Derrick is actually doing the right thing in this situation.

I'm talking about on offense.

Better than before, but I still find it ironic that you accuse me of throwing out hyperboles, when you do it far more.

I don't recall any hyperbole coming from any of my posts.

[sdeezy]

Rose will be fine..he's had bad stretches before, and he's always bounced back in a big way..amid all the hate the guy receives (mostly due to his overzealous fans)..ppl are beginning to gloss over the fact that he's really freakin good at the game of basketball..RealGM justs overreacts to everything. he's not a top mvp candidate for no reason

[B-Scott]

Third year guard leading his team to the best record in the NBA....Impressive!

And he did this without a true second Superstar

[thedarkstark]

He's not even having a bad series, he had 2 great games, and 2 terrible games one of which he was playing injured for 3 quarters.

When you average it out, yeah the 35% shooting really stands out as awful, but he's still rebounding the ball well and has been able to take over in the clutch in all 4 games, willing his team to victory 3 out of 4 times. If he'd just stop shooting 3's (they're not falling for him right now) he'd be just fine.

[Benny Gold]

Third year guard leading his team to the best record in the NBA....Impressive!

And he did this without a true second Superstar

Dwight Howard and Dirk Nowitzki are really enjoying those "true second superstars".

[KID2RAW]

LOL when it rains it pours....I SEE ALL THE HATERS ARE COMING OUT FULL FORCE.........PATHETIC

[Benny Gold]

He's not even having a bad series, he had 2 great games, and 2 terrible games one of which he was playing injured for 3 quarters.

When you average it out, yeah the 35% shooting really stands out as awful, but he's still rebounding the ball well and has been able to take over in the clutch in all 4 games, willing his team to victory 3 out of 4 times. If he'd just stop shooting 3's (they're not falling for him right now) he'd be just fine.

Kyle Korver has been more clutch than Rose.

[thedarkstark]

He's not even having a bad series, he had 2 great games, and 2 terrible games one of which he was playing injured for 3 quarters.

When you average it out, yeah the 35% shooting really stands out as awful, but he's still rebounding the ball well and has been able to take over in the clutch in all 4 games, willing his team to victory 3 out of 4 times. If he'd just stop shooting 3's (they're not falling for him right now) he'd be just fine.

Kyle Korver has been more clutch than Rose.

Not really, but for the sake of argument lets say you're right. Who penetrated the lane and drew the defenders to get Korver wide open over and over again? And who was the guy who consistently FOUND Korver wide open? It was Derrick Rose

Isn't that a point guards job, to draw defenders and find the open man? And as bad as Rose has been through stretches, he has done EVERYTHING right in crunch time.

While Korver has definitely been clutch, and I give him props for that the only thing he has done is stand at the 3 point line and shoot WIDE open shots. Could Korver hit those shots if it was a 1 on 1 iso? NO CHANCE.

[jax98]

Bringing the ball up is nothing remarkable.

Who said it was? What I'm saying is bringing the ball up is an unecessary fatigue-drainer when you're the heart and soul of the offense, as well as the first line of defense.

In essence, you may feel bringing the ball is unremarkable (you'd be right), but remarkable or not, it still takes a toll on your energy level. Having said that, it wouldn't be a problem if Chicago had another player on the court who could get his own shot. That'd even it out much more.

The second part of my response was that if Rose really was creating the offense every single time his stats would be higher, thus proving your hyperbolic statment. Wade needed Williams because he's a SG.

I'm sorry, but that's a ridiculous thing to say. You do realise Rose accounted for the most offense of any player in the league this year, right? 42.8% I believe. I'll try finding the data to prove it, since I've only seen that stat presented on TNT telecasts so far.

Joe Johnson was the primary ball handler for several years in Atlanta, but he was not creating for the offense every trip down the court.

Again, reading is fundamental:

High volume ballhandling does not automatically transfer into assists. Otherwise, Joe Johnson would have averaged 8+ over his last few years in Atlanta.

What I'm saying here isn't that Johnson created the offense all the time. I'm saying the amount of ballhandling he had, wasn't reflected in stats. Not assists or scoring-wise. So your argument of high-volume ballhandling and creation turning into stats, is flawed and incorrect.

He put the ball in spots where others could create their own offense, but just because he made the pass to initiate the offense doesn't mean he should get credit for the entire offense.

Eh. That's not entirely correct. Atlanta for a long time was in a similar situation as the Bulls are in now. Josh Smith couldn't create for himself consistently, neither could Bibby or Marvin Williams. Horford now can somewhat, but that's only something that developed this year.

It's understandable for a player like Boozer to not get it going. He might go 6 minutes without getting a touch.

You're really, really, really reaching with these remarks you're making. This is again not true sir. Boozer is getting the ball, and I promise you there isn't 6-minute holes in between. Trust me.

I really haven't seen where Boozer is that awful, besides some over passing and some fouls. Sure he's missed some easy shots that he should have made, but I don't see that being too huge of an issue for the long haul. While Rose's issues will have to be corrected in the offseason at the earliest.

Are you serious? Boozer has a TS% of .433 for the playoffs, and you're saying it's not an issue?

Shane Battier is crucial to Memphis' success. What I'm saying is less can be more. Bulls probably won't win either way, but they certainly wont if Rose tries to put them on his back.

We agree on that, but then let me ask you the $50,000 question: Who? Who can step up on the Chicago roster, not named Derrick Rose? Because so far Boozer hasn't, Noah can't, Deng can add some, but is still limited. So who? You're ignoring the roster I feel.

I'd rather him have better court vision and passing accuracy.

He's 22. These things will come. But right now, the Bulls need him to score. And that's what he does. The problem Rose has, is that he takes too many long jumpers.

It has nothing to do with being flashy, though some misdirection would help. The point is you hardly ever see him make the more challenging passes. Sure they can be more of a gamble, but doing so would make his teammates better and make it harder for the defense to defend him.

Eh.. That depends entirely on the roster around him, I'd say. Russell Westbrook has the luxury of trying to make the bang-bang play, knowing he has Durant alongside him to take over the primary scoring responsibility. Rose does not have that luxury, and people seem to forget it.

I'd say the bigger problem is that he thinks he has to.

No. He has to. Come on now. Let's not be ridiculous here.

Never liked spoon feeding baskets never will.

... dude.

Even some true Pgs have this problem and they'll run into the same problems as Rose even though the approach is different. Doing so will force teammates to rely to much on 1 player, and when that one player gets stopped they're unprepared.

We agree that Chicago rely too much on Rose. Yes. But they are not doing so by design entirely. When Boozer came back fro injury, a clear attempt was made as to make Rose and Boozer option A and option B. However Boozer simply couldn't live up to that, so Chicago had to ride Rose moreso than they ''wanted''.

I don't recall any hyperbole coming from any of my posts.

The SG argument, that Boozer goes 6 minutes without getting the ball, etc.

All in all, you're not making an objective analysis of the Bulls situation. And it's showing, since you're illogically attacking Rose for shortcomings that primarily are shortcomings of the Bulls as a team.

[Benny Gold]

He's not even having a bad series, he had 2 great games, and 2 terrible games one of which he was playing injured for 3 quarters.

When you average it out, yeah the 35% shooting really stands out as awful, but he's still rebounding the ball well and has been able to take over in the clutch in all 4 games, willing his team to victory 3 out of 4 times. If he'd just stop shooting 3's (they're not falling for him right now) he'd be just fine.

Kyle Korver has been more clutch than Rose.

Not really, but for the sake of argument lets say you're right. Who penetrated the lane and drew the defenders to get Korver wide open over and over again? And who was the guy who consistently FOUND Korver wide open? It was Derrick Rose

Isn't that a point guards job, to draw defenders and find the open man? And as bad as Rose has been through stretches, he has done EVERYTHING right in crunch time.

While Korver has definitely been clutch, and I give him props for that the only thing he has done is stand at the 3 point line and shoot WIDE open shots. Could Korver hit those shots if it was a 1 on 1 iso? NO CHANCE.

Kyle Korver gets his shots coming off screens for the most part, not because Derrick Rose is some amazing distributor. That's his role, and he's done it amazingly well.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but he's only missed one three in the 4th quarter so far this series?

[RoseAboveDurant]

Third year guard leading his team to the best record in the NBA....Impressive!

And he did this without a true second Superstar

Dwight Howard and Dirk Nowitzki are really enjoying those "true second superstars".

I must have missed where the Mavs and the Magic had the best record too?