Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 7

[fredericklove]

right on ballocks, i've been thinking the same. the top 6 or 7 in this draft project pretty well and there's more than a couple after that. thanks to a good tank job, we're in great position to come out with a real player.

i think the kant-miss prospect you missed is young Enes, who looks every bit and better the prospect that Kevin Love was.

On a draft that has Barnes Sully Jones going top 5, Kanter would had likely end up as 6th or 7th draft pick can u imagine some team takes him at that spot, its an absolute steal !!

[WhatsaTDot]

Well Evan Turner was drafted for being NBA ready and ended up not being while Favors was drafted not for his readiness but for his projected long term impact. So I'm not sure there is a specific formula for what you look for in a top 3 pick.

Plus this is a unique season. We're likely headed to a lockout, and we still need a ton of pieces to contend. So drafting your future starting C and letting play in Europe next year while we flounder our way to 4th-8th worst in a shortened season and collect another asset is not such a terrible idea to me.

Difference is, both those guys have much higher ceilings than Valanciunas. Valanciunas projects to be a role player while the other two didn't.

What I'm trying to get at is, you don't draft guys with role player potential that early.

With all due respect, how do you know what Valancinuas projects to be? And if we go back to the Biedrins prime as the type of player we end up with, those are very similar numbers to what Horford produces, and did so right from the start. Or perhaps he has a Joakim Noah type of career that starts off slowly and who is now producing those Biedrins stats. I would certainly trade the #3 pick for either of those players and not worry about they are considered all stars or role players.

[TheRealDeal]

I've never been big on conspiracies but I do understand, from a business perspective, why the NBA would rig the draft lottery. If I owned a music company or music studio, I wouldn't want my Christian Bale's doing low budget movies or Justin Bieber's performing 42 nights a year in Milwaukee.

If it is rigged then I like our chances of moving up this year. Our franchise is in limbo with ownership/management issues. Last year Washington was in the process of being sold when they were gift-wrapped John Wall. A #1 pick would also make us more attractive to a potential buyer. We're competing for the #1 pick with small markets like Minneapolis, Cleveland, Salt Lake City & Sacramento and most of those teams already have more talent than we do.

Plus we've been hampered by FA's leaving without compensation. In the NFL they add compensatory picks for teams who can't compete through free agency. The NBA head office needs to be finding ways to make teams like ours more competitive and this would be a good start. I know there aren't any guaranteed franchise players in this draft, but if the lotto is fixed then they must have a pretty fool-proof way of doing it that allows them to determine the order every year. Who knows, I still believe it isn't fixed but you can't say there isn't a ton of motive. During tough economic times I know the NBA doesn't want to be taking any chances.

[WhatsaTDot]

Oh for gawds sakes! Lebron James would have been better off being drafted by any team than Cleveland. You think the other owners lined up to hand him to Cleveland?

From a business perspective then, you would also be concerned with the potential legal ramifications and litigation you would open yourself up to.

[Hassassin]

Well Evan Turner was drafted for being NBA ready and ended up not being while Favors was drafted not for his readiness but for his projected long term impact. So I'm not sure there is a specific formula for what you look for in a top 3 pick.

Plus this is a unique season. We're likely headed to a lockout, and we still need a ton of pieces to contend. So drafting your future starting C and letting play in Europe next year while we flounder our way to 4th-8th worst in a shortened season and collect another asset is not such a terrible idea to me.

Difference is, both those guys have much higher ceilings than Valanciunas. Valanciunas projects to be a role player while the other two didn't.

What I'm trying to get at is, you don't draft guys with role player potential that early.

With all due respect, how do you know what Valancinuas projects to be? And if we go back to the Biedrins prime as the type of player we end up with, those are very similar numbers to what Horford produces, and did so right from the start. Or perhaps he has a Joakim Noah type of career that starts off slowly and who is now producing those Biedrins stats. I would certainly trade the #3 pick for either of those players and not worry about they are considered all stars or role players.

Watching him and comparing him to similar players that are already in the NBA, like everyone else does? Everyone has different opinions on various prospects on who projects to be what in the future.

In his best year, Biedrins averaged 12 points and 11 boards with 1.5 blocks a game but wasn't that much of a defender, but was productive enough overall to offset that.

I do like Valanciunas as a prospect because prime Biedrins production + free throw shooting is solid production from the center spot. But as I've mentioned before, I think there are better prospects on the board at 3.

But if you are that desperate for a center that gives 10/10/2, might as well just sign Samuel Dalembert in the offseason.

[WhatsaTDot]

A few reasons I suppose.

1. JV is 18 while Sam is 31. Being in rebuild mode, there's no point plugging a hole short term that we'll need to replace by the time we're competitive again (2-3 years).
2. Working under the current CBA, we would own JV's right for 7 years.
3. Sam will likely attract many suitors in win now mode. If we want him, we're likely to have to overpay for him.
4. Sam has produce a single season of 10/10/2 which was 5 years ago. I think its fair to see he has peaked.
5. Center is the hardest position to fill and we are projected to pick 3rd which will leave us with a decision between two centers. Its not like its a reach to take JV there.

[Indeed]

Not until the combine and perhaps the lottery result.
Irving and D Will could be the better players, then there are so many factors when choosing between Kanter and Val. I would go Kanter over D Will if his measurement is good (6"11 with 7"3 wingspan or 9"2 standing reach).

He's already been measured at 6'10.5 in shoes with a 7'1 wingspan. I don't see how his standing reach hit's 9'2. Chris Bosh for example (just taking the easiest available stats), was 6'11.5 in shoes (at draft time, he may have grown after), his wingspan was 7'3.5, and his standing reach is 9'1. Now his neck hurts him in standing reach, but Kanter is wider, so considering all those things I would wager Kanter himself comes out with about a 9'0 standing reach. And even then I think I may be an inch or so generous.

And Bosh is not a center, so simply say, Kanter can be undersized. Like Horford, he doesn't want to play C, and are we trading Davis and Bargnani for a C if he is better?

[Hassassin]

A few reasons I suppose.

1. JV is 18 while Sam is 31. Being in rebuild mode, there's no point plugging a hole short term that we'll need to replace by the time we're competitive again (2-3 years).
2. Working under the current CBA, we would own JV's right for 7 years.
3. Sam will likely attract many suitors in win now mode. If we want him, we're likely to have to overpay for him.
4. Sam has produce a single season of 10/10/2 which was 5 years ago. I think its fair to see he has peaked.
5. Center is the hardest position to fill and we are projected to pick 3rd which will leave us with a decision between two centers. Its not like its a reach to take JV there.

All good points. But a couple of thoughts and I wasn't necessarily advocating signing Dalembert over drafting Jonas or vice versa. Just threw out an alternative scenario.

The center position is the hardest position to fill and is one of the harder positions to learn for young players. Sam has peaked years ago and ofcourse you would be paying him more in the market. But remember, you are paying the premium because you are getting a known product as opposed to waiting a couple of years and hopefully getting who you thought you were getting.

Suppose you draft Jonas and you wait multiple years to properly evaluate him because he isn't physically ready to handle NBA action. If he doesn't pan out, you waste a high pick and all those years invested in him.

Now you can say, what if you draft Kanter and the same thing happens? You would immediately know his issues because he will be able to immediately contribute to the team. If he doesn't, it would raise some red flags. Ditto for Biyombo. While he is very raw, you wouldn't have to wait a couple of years to immediately see some potential on the defensive end and on the boards.

[JYD]

And Bosh is not a center, so simply say, Kanter can be undersized. Like Horford, he doesn't want to play C, and are we trading Davis and Bargnani for a C if he is better?

Ok, well if you're looking at him as a PF, I don't see him possibly being better than Ed Davis. I mean 100% don't see that. And I kinda think Kanter is going to be a tweener on D, too short/groundbound to guard C's and too slow to guard a lot of PFs.

[EventHorizon]

If Raps get 3rd or below just trade down and grab Terrence Jones. All the candidates from the 3-7 spot have no defined position and are way too risky.

[Tenacious_C]

Should we trade our pick if we are below 4 for a mid level pic next year. Say we trade whoever we pic and package with Jose to whoever for a pic next year and cash?

I want to get rid of Jose.

[andyo]

I've open up a bit to taking Kemba or Knight....sucks that outside of the top 2 there is no consensus amongst the draftees

[Indeed]

And Bosh is not a center, so simply say, Kanter can be undersized. Like Horford, he doesn't want to play C, and are we trading Davis and Bargnani for a C if he is better?

Ok, well if you're looking at him as a PF, I don't see him possibly being better than Ed Davis. I mean 100% don't see that. And I kinda think Kanter is going to be a tweener on D, too short/groundbound to guard C's and too slow to guard a lot of PFs.

Davis isn't quick neither, and you never know how much he can bulk up as well.
Sorry to say, Kanter is a better prospect than Davis at the moment. The range, post moves, passing and etc, and my problem is, neither of them got an explosive first step. If you have Val and Davis, I can accept it, but Kanter and Davis? I think we need more from the wing spots then.

[Reignman]

And Bosh is not a center, so simply say, Kanter can be undersized. Like Horford, he doesn't want to play C, and are we trading Davis and Bargnani for a C if he is better?

Ok, well if you're looking at him as a PF, I don't see him possibly being better than Ed Davis. I mean 100% don't see that. And I kinda think Kanter is going to be a tweener on D, too short/groundbound to guard C's and too slow to guard a lot of PFs.

Davis isn't quick neither, and you never know how much he can bulk up as well.
Sorry to say, Kanter is a better prospect than Davis at the moment. The range, post moves, passing and etc, and my problem is, neither of them got an explosive first step. If you have Val and Davis, I can accept it, but Kanter and Davis? I think we need more from the wing spots then.

I have no interest in Kanter as a PF, too bulky with the down-low game of a C on both ends.

He and Davis would actually make a very nice frontcourt on both sides of the ball if they can maintain/improve on their current games.

[Rude Boy 1]

Does anyone actually have game film of Enes? seems like a lot of bold statements are being made based on youtube footage.

[Silk Wilkes]

Random thought on Enes Kanter: Zach Randolph? I heard Charles Barkely say Zach plays the old man game during Inside the NBA and I immediately thought of Enes' below the rim game. They both like to face up but can also school you in the post, not to mention they go hard on the glass.

[Reignman]

Does anyone actually have game film of Enes? seems like a lot of bold statements are being made based on youtube footage.

If you google it you can find a few games from the U-16s, the U-18's and the hoop summit. Someone recently posted some of his footage from stoneridge but those were just highlight clips.

[Reignman]

Random thought on Enes Kanter: Zach Randolph? I heard Charles Barkely say Zach plays the old man game during Inside the NBA and I immediately thought of Enes' below the rim game. They both like to face up but can also school you in the post, not to mention they go hard on the glass.

That's a good comp but I think Cousins is a better fit. Two big guys who use skill in the post, face up and play a "below the rim" type of game while being decent passers. Both guys are very good rebounders and have good IQ on the defensive end. Cousins has better length but I'm waiting on the combines for Kanter's true measurements before I come to any conclusions. Last we heard he's 6'11" in shoes with a 7'1" wingspan and that's already adequate. And considering those measurements are from a year ago I wouldn't be shocked to hear he has grown since then considering he's only 18/19.

[Rude Boy 1]

Does anyone actually have game film of Enes? seems like a lot of bold statements are being made based on youtube footage.

If you google it you can find a few games from the U-16s, the U-18's and the hoop summit. Someone recently posted some of his footage from stoneridge but those were just highlight clips.

Ya... I guess that's all we really have to go on. I'm not sold I would think top three means potential impact player I just don't see Enes as that guy. 5 yrs from now what type of player is he going to be if everything works out to a Tee. 12pts, 8rebs, 1.3blks? Not terrible but not exactly the best ceiling either.

I think what people want in a C is a guy who can defend his position and also impose his will at the offensive end. While I believe Enes may be able to score at a moderate clip I'm not sure he's going to be the type of defender most of us want him to be.

I'm not gonna lie everyday I just hope and pray we somehow move into the top 2 there are no questions there at all... Enes looks like he has a nice frame but I'm not sure if he's ugly enough to mix it up with some of the guys he'll be forced to do battle with.

[wtcantfw]

Does anyone actually have game film of Enes? seems like a lot of bold statements are being made based on youtube footage.

If you google it you can find a few games from the U-16s, the U-18's and the hoop summit. Someone recently posted some of his footage from stoneridge but those were just highlight clips.

Ya... I guess that's all we really have to go on. I'm not sold I would think top three means potential impact player I just don't see Enes as that guy. 5 yrs from now what type of player is he going to be if everything works out to a Tee. 12pts, 8rebs, 1.3blks? Not terrible but not exactly the best ceiling either.

I think what people want in a C is a guy who can defend his position and also impose his will at the offensive end. While I believe Enes may be able to score at a moderate clip I'm not sure he's going to be the type of defender most of us want him to be.

I'm not gonna lie everyday I just hope and pray we somehow move into the top 2 there are no questions there at all... Enes looks like he has a nice frame but I'm not sure if he's ugly enough to mix it up with some of the guys he'll be forced to do battle with.

Aren't those Marc Gasol-type numbers? And people here want to throw $10+ mil at him.