OT: NBA players could decertify

countryboi · Post #1 » by **countryboi** » Tue Apr 26, 2011 7:12 pm

The NBA players' union already has enough votes from its members to decertify, should it decide to follow the strategy used by the NFL players' union, CBSSports.com reported, citing unnamed sources.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=6430021

Post #2 » by **fatlever** » Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:04 pm

all this union talk is over my head. i need the version for idiots.

ohara · Post #3 » by **ohara** » Tue Apr 26, 2011 9:10 pm

All I know is that if there is no 2011-2012 season, then our #9 pick this year's draft will be good, but our #9 pick next year's draft will be really good. Much deeper draft.

Fighting between the rich and the real rich. If both sides want to cut off their noses to spite their face, let 'em. Just like the NFL, both sides better figure a way to fix the problem. Because this economy is killing the Avg Joe and they already dont have much money to go to the games as it is. Take a year off with all this nonsense and you will see a great deal of fans who just wont give a crap enough to come back and watch. They will be more concerned with making ends meet than what is happening with labor negotiations in a sport.

W_HAMILTON · Post #4 » by **W_HAMILTON** » Tue Apr 26, 2011 10:06 pm

I highly doubt they would lose an entire season over this.

Jaruff · Post #5 » by **Jaruff** » Tue Apr 26, 2011 10:19 pm

W_HAMILTON wrote:I highly doubt they would lose an entire season over this.

True. At worst, it'll be like the last time; they'll play 50 games or so. If the new CBA is like the old CBA, I believe we'll get to drop a contract with no penalty.

Is the D-League considered to be something different or would they stop playing too? I could see some NBA players playing at that level until the CBA problems are resolved.

JGib23 · Post #6 » by **JGib23** » Tue Apr 26, 2011 10:36 pm

I've read that the NBA players union has much more at risk than the NFL players did (like guaranteed contracts).

Not sure of the specifics but, if decertifying would put guaranteed contracts at risk, I doubt that the players would go for it. I'll try to dig up the info that I read on this and post it.

W_HAMILTON · Post #7 » by **W_HAMILTON** » Tue Apr 26, 2011 11:16 pm

Taken from: http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago ... ained.html (initiating porn checker...checking...checking...clear)

""As long as there is a union in place the NFL is protected from an antitrust lawsuit. If the union decertifies ... players could file individual antitrust lawsuits against the NFL, stating that the owners are actively conspiring against the players and restricting trade. At that point, it's all in the courts hands.""

Tupik · Post #8 » by **Tupik** » Wed Apr 27, 2011 10:51 am

I really hope Stern doesn't play hardball as much as he has so far, we're just coming out of an excellent and extremely entertaining regular season, and so far the playoffs have been very enjoyable as well. I think Stern and the owners have to realize that it is not a good idea to shorten the season, even less to delete it.

IMO they should just make minor tweaks, I like the current system, maybe pay the players a bit less so that the NBA doesn't lose money, but that's all. I mean, even though we're in a small market and we'd probably benefit from what the owners are trying to do (parity etc...), I don't think it's a good idea, teams have to be rewarded for their good management, we already have the draft to help out bad teams.

Post #9 » by **fatlever** » Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:50 pm

i hope the owners, especially the small market owners, hold out for as long as it takes to get a system in place that allows teams like charlotte to complete with teams like the lakers. if that takes me missing nba for a season, i am willing to make that sacrifice. what would be awful would be a lengthy holdout where in the end the small market owners dont get a viable solution and we are right back where we were but now with much less fan support due to the lockout.

Post #10 » by **Walt Cronkite** » Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:44 pm

NHL seems to be doing pretty well, borrowing from their CBA would be wise. I could lice with or without an NBA season next year, so I'm with fats. Fix the problem, whatever it takes.

Tupik · Post #11 » by **Tupik** » Wed Apr 27, 2011 9:24 pm

I don't know... obviously as a Bobcats fan it would probably help us, but I don't want teams not being able to keep their players at all, I don't want teams to change all the time because they can't resign their players because of a hard cap or whatever they want to put. I am in favor of better revenue sharing, because it's unfair for teams that will get less media exposure than others regardless of the level of their team (ie just because they're bigger market teams).
Obviously teams like the lakers will always have an advantage, but whatever, it's still possible for us small market teams to compete with smart management (see OKC and Spurs)

Post #12 » by **Paydro70** » Thu Apr 28, 2011 7:08 am

This should not be the players' problem. The NBA is profitable as a whole, it's just really badly distributed so that the top teams make a huge profit, most teams make a small profit, and some teams lose tons of money. Some of those teams, of course, are ones with owners that have no intention of running their teams profitably because the teams are a hobby (Portland and Dallas). The rest have no one to blame but their own awful management. So the answer, frankly, is pretty clear: better revenue sharing, or better management on the part of crappy teams.

But instead the players will be asked to sacrifice for the incompetence of their employers.

countryboi · Post #13 » by **countryboi** » Thu Apr 28, 2011 1:41 pm

it seems like the nba is going to try to take a page from the nfl and screw the owners with an anti trust suit. looking at what happens with a free market its a mess. no draft, no free agent restrictions, no salary cap, and no vet minimum.... the sport is changed for the worse big market teams rule cause they have all the money and there is nothing to stop a owner from having a 300 man roster with players making 10 dollar a hour and then fire them all mid game... is this what the players really want? kobe and payton would get rich but everyone else would suck

Post #14 » by **fatlever** » Thu Apr 28, 2011 2:48 pm

Paydro70 wrote:This should not be the players' problem. The NBA is profitable as a whole, it's just really badly distributed so that the top teams make a huge profit, most teams make a small profit, and some teams lose tons of money. Some of those teams, of course, are ones with owners that have no intention of running their teams profitably because the teams are a hobby (Portland and Dallas). The rest have no one to blame but their own awful management. So the answer, frankly, is pretty clear: better revenue sharing, or better management on the part of crappy teams.

But instead the players will be asked to sacrifice for the incompetence of their employers.

no doubt many owners and gms are the blame for their team's poor financial situations. we all saw it this summer when we assumed the gms would keep spending down due to the current financial climate only to see the opposite happen. joe johnson, rudy gay, drew gooden etc... so many awful contracts handed out, hard to really defend those actions.

@ tupik, hard to really compare all small market teams to spurs and thunder. yes, the spurs have an amazing gm, but they also lucked out getting #1 when duncan was coming out. and thunder lucked out getting #2 when oden and durant were coming out. and they got double lucky that both of those guys are content with staying out of the big market areas and living below the radar in smaller markets. if they didnt get those picks and those types of superstars, where would they be now? probably in the same situation as teams like milwaukee, charlotte, pacers etc... small market teams fighting to get into the last few spots of the playoffs each year. a great owner and gm can only take a small market team so far. you still have to get the superstars and convince them to stay long term.

Tupik · Post #15 » by **Tupik** » Thu Apr 28, 2011 10:06 pm

Paydro70 wrote:This should not be the players' problem. The NBA is profitable as a whole, it's just really badly distributed so that the top teams make a huge profit, most teams make a small profit, and some teams lose tons of money. Some of those teams, of course, are ones with owners that have no intention of running their teams profitably because the teams are a hobby (Portland and Dallas). The rest have no one to blame but their own awful management. So the answer, frankly, is pretty clear: better revenue sharing, or better management on the part of crappy teams.

But instead the players will be asked to sacrifice for the incompetence of their employers.

Exactly. No one should blame the NBA for their own f*ck-ups, if you can't manage a team, than it's perfectly normal that your team sucks, and there shouldn't be a leveling of talent throughout the league.

@Paydro, of course they lucked into the draft, but you can't tell me any team can't become competitive with smart management, by avoiding throwing enormous contracts at players that aren't worth it, drafting bad players, etc. If you do things intelligently, you'll start creating a winning culture in your franchise, and eventually everybody will be glad to come play for your team since the ultimate goal of every player is to win a championship. Teams that are located in bigger markets will always have certain advantages regarding FA signings, but hey there are still plenty of other ways to get better.

So yes to better revenue sharing, it's unfair that teams make more money than others simply because of their location, but no to a hard-cap or anything that prevents teams from keeping/signing players. Sure, we might never get a championship-caliber team, but in the end we'll be the ones to blame. And I don't want to see teams like OKC, Chicago, or whichever team that will be great for the upcoming seasons to crumble because they can't retain their players. They built great teams with smart management, they deserve to keep them.

bobcats3wallace · Post #16 » by **bobcats3wallace** » Thu Apr 28, 2011 11:20 pm

Paydro70 wrote:This should not be the players' problem. The NBA is profitable as a whole, it's just really badly distributed so that the top teams make a huge profit, most teams make a small profit, and some teams lose tons of money. Some of those teams, of course, are ones with owners that have no intention of running their teams profitably because the teams are a hobby (Portland and Dallas). The rest have no one to blame but their own awful management. So the answer, frankly, is pretty clear: better revenue sharing, or better management on the part of crappy teams.

But instead the players will be asked to sacrifice for the incompetence of their employers.

Yet stern came out and reported losses of OVER $300 million and that was an IMPROVEMENT from the last couple years....

Get rid of guaranteed contracts and implement a HARD cap. Another thing I would suggest, but is unlikely to happen, is that each team field a D-league team. Use some of the money saved from the hard-cap and no guaranteed contracts to have a full minor league system. Expand the draft by a round or two and allow teams to have players in the D-league that are NOT on the NBA roster. That way teams can truly develop talent and the NBA can have yet another way to help build up the fan base. It would certainly draw more attention to the D-league and give the teams more flexibility while giving players more job opportunities. Bring foreign talent to the US to play OUR game instead of keeping them over seas because you don't want to use up a roster spot. Again though, this would never happen..unfortunately.

countryboi · Post #17 » by **countryboi** » Fri Apr 29, 2011 12:34 am

Union VP Evans: Hard Cap Out Of The Question

National Basketball Players’ Association vice president Maurice Evans said players might be willing to relent on BRI, but do not intend to budge on a hard cap.

“In my opinion, the current deal we have now is actually working,” Evans said. “So if we can just work from there and try and figure out something that works for everybody… Again, we want to bargain with them. We don’t want to throw darts and say who is right and who is wrong. We just want to get a deal. There has to be some model that says this is how we do business and it’s consistent from here out. Tweak this, and work from there. Honestly, I don’t think there is anything more we can give and a hard cap is definitely not going to happen.”

The owners are also expected to push for reducing the length of guaranteed contracts, and limiting the guarantees on some deals, which Evans felt is unnecessary. “I don’t think there is nowhere to go from here,” he said. “Everything has gone down. We can’t continue to diminish the years of contracts. GMs and owners don’t have to sign players for those allotted number of years. We don’t need to self-govern them. Doesn’t make any sense.”

Read more: http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/21 ... z1Krrazr4c

Post #18 » by **Paydro70** » Fri Apr 29, 2011 1:14 pm

bobcats3wallace wrote:Yet stern came out and reported losses of OVER $300 million and that was an IMPROVEMENT from the last couple years....

Get rid of guaranteed contracts and implement a HARD cap. Another thing I would suggest, but is unlikely to happen, is that each team field a D-league team. Use some of the money saved from the hard-cap and no guaranteed contracts to have a full minor league system. Expand the draft by a round or two and allow teams to have players in the D-league that are NOT on the NBA roster. That way teams can truly develop talent and the NBA can have yet another way to help build up the fan base. It would certainly draw more attention to the D-league and give the teams more flexibility while giving players more job opportunities. Bring foreign talent to the US to play OUR game instead of keeping them over seas because you don't want to use up a roster spot. Again though, this would never happen..unfortunately.

Stern didn't "report" anything. He "projected" those losses, because he's paid by the owners, not the players, and knows that there's a CBA negotiation looming. He did exactly the same thing last year. What actually happened?
http://www.forbes.com/lists/2011/32/bas ... _land.html

Forbes says the NBA made $200m. What a surprise that Stern has come out again to claim that the NBA is losing hundreds of millions. The problem is that the Knicks made $64m, while the Magic lost $23m, not that the players are making too much of the revenue stream.

The NFL model (hard cap and no contracts... I don't think an agreement only one side can break counts as a contract) would be terrible in basketball. The consequences of that system are holdouts and dramatically higher player turnover, which are okay in a sport with 22 players on the field, and not so much in a sport with 10.

It's particularly ridiculous in a sport where there is actual competition from other leagues. There is no god-given right for the NBA to have all the best talent, if Europe can offer longer and pricier contracts, players will leave. Unlike the NFL, the teams actually have to be careful about how much they ask from people whose services have other outlets than the NBA.

Tupik: I think you were responding to someone else? I didn't comment on competitive balance in the NBA.

Kembastockton · Post #19 » by **Kembastockton** » Sun May 1, 2011 7:14 pm

Stern is probably reporting losses as resulted from long term projections more than actual monetary losses.