Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 8

[fredericklove]

That goes the same with BB, his D and rebounding and offense are still unknown to us, he plays good defensively against euro-level and american high school team level but not against the nba-level.

[5DOM]

That goes the same with BB, his D and rebounding and offense are still unknown to us, he plays good defensively against euro-level and american high school team level but not against the nba-level.

Yeah, but at least we've seen him play D. Just like you thinking Kanter's offense will be effective in the NBA based on his highlight clips, we have reasonable - in fact, much more reasonable - evidences to think that Biyombo could be a force defensively. We've seen Kanter score against U18 Euros and 2nd tier American HS players, but not against the NBA-level players And when it comes to defense and rebounding, we basically have no information. People say he's going to be good because he's got good work ethic and basketball IQ, but if those were all you needed, Steve Nash would also be a good defender himself

[bboyskinnylegs]

That goes the same with BB, his D and rebounding and offense are still unknown to us, he plays good defensively against euro-level and american high school team level but not against the nba-level.

well since the NBA is the only higher level of competition that he could have played in, I don't know what else he could have done to prove his defensive ability (and in such a short period at 18 as well). Having the kind of defensive impact that he had in the ACB this year is unheard of for an 18-year old.

Biyombo is the most impressive defensive prospect of the 3 Cs... his rebounding rate is very high, he's got elite shotblocking ability, and he definitely has an edge over Kanter/Val in terms of quickness/athleticism (to go along with his solid build at 243lbs and elite length with a 9'3" standing reach and 7'7" wingspan). He's strong enough to hold his ground in the paint, is quick to rotate and provide help inside, and agile enough to step out and guard guys on the perimeter. He's going to be one of the quickest (if not the quickest) C in the league. Will there be a learning curve? Absolutely, just as there will be for anyone we draft. But there's no denying that this guy has elite tools, and has demonstrated the ability to make a big impact defensively.

[TDotRep]

If you want things that Bargnani couldn't provide us all these years, wouldn't you want Biyombo? Kanter's rebounding and D are pretty much unknown to us.

His rebounding is fine (almost doubled BB in HoopSummit) by this kind of thinking isn't a good way to draft. So your point is if we had a Dalembert all these years, you would choose a kanter because he is the opposite? Draft BPA, and most likely Kanter will have a better impact on the league, could be wrong but the chances are in Kanters favor.

[bboyskinnylegs]

If you want things that Bargnani couldn't provide us all these years, wouldn't you want Biyombo? Kanter's rebounding and D are pretty much unknown to us.

His rebounding is fine (almost doubled BB in HoopSummit) by this kind of thinking isn't a good way to draft. So your point is if we had a Dalembert all these years, you would choose a kanter because he is the opposite? Draft BPA, and most likely Kanter will have a better impact on the league, could be wrong but the chances are in Kanters favor.

how is 13 rebounds almost twice as much as 11? I agree that we need to draft the best player available (which is why I still don't know which of these 3 bigs I like best), but we can't ignore the importance of defense in making that BPA assessment.

[CanadaB-Ball]

If you want things that Bargnani couldn't provide us all these years, wouldn't you want Biyombo? Kanter's rebounding and D are pretty much unknown to us.

His rebounding is fine (almost doubled BB in HoopSummit) by this kind of thinking isn't a good way to draft. So your point is if we had a Dalembert all these years, you would choose a kanter because he is the opposite? Draft BPA, and most likely Kanter will have a better impact on the league, could be wrong but the chances are in Kanters favor.

how is 13 rebounds almost twice as much as 11?

Didn't he get 16 rebounds (correct me if I'm wrong)?

It doesn't really matter, as it still wouldn't be double.

[bboyskinnylegs]

Kanter had 34 pts (13-21 FG, 0-2 3FG, 8-9 FT), 13 rebs (8 offensive, 5 defensive), 0 assists, 0 steals, 0 blocks, 3 turnovers, 1PF in 24 mins.

Biyombo had 12pts (5-7FG, 2-8FT), 11rebs (7offensive, 4 defensive), 10 blocks, 2 assists, 0 steals, 4 turnovers, 3 PFs in 28 mins.

http://www.usabasketball.com/men/2010/10_hsum_box.pdf

http://www.usabasketball.com/mens/hoopsummit/stats.html

[5DOM]

If you want things that Bargnani couldn't provide us all these years, wouldn't you want Biyombo? Kanter's rebounding and D are pretty much unknown to us.

His rebounding is fine (almost doubled BB in HoopSummit) by this kind of thinking isn't a good way to draft. So your point is if we had a Dalembert all these years, you would choose a kanter because he is the opposite? Draft BPA, and most likely Kanter will have a better impact on the league, could be wrong but the chances are in Kanters favor.

Sure his rebounding was fine at the Hoops Summit game, but that was just one game (and under All Star setting). He was also pretty good statistically against U18 Euros and US JV teams, but they are the farthest things from NBA rebounders who are actually going to be longer and/or more athletic than Kanter.

And I am not the one who suggested that we should pick a player completely opposite of Bargs.

[5DOM]

Kanter played much less minutes IIRC.

edit: Actually only 4 less

[CanadaB-Ball]

Kanter had 34 pts, 13 rebs.

Biyombo had 12pts, 11rebs, 10 blocks.

http://www.hoopsnotes.com/nba/enes-kanter-had-34-points-in-hoop-summit/

http://aol.sportingnews.com/nba/story/2011-04-10/biyombo-makes-quite-a-name-for-himself

Oh, okay, thanks for the stats.

[fredericklove]

That goes the same with BB, his D and rebounding and offense are still unknown to us, he plays good defensively against euro-level and american high school team level but not against the nba-level.

Yeah, but at least we've seen him play D. Just like you thinking Kanter's offense will be effective in the NBA based on his highlight clips, we have reasonable - in fact, much more reasonable - evidences to think that Biyombo could be a force defensively. We've seen Kanter score against U18 Euros and 2nd tier American HS players, but not against the NBA-level players And when it comes to defense and rebounding, we basically have no information

See, u THINK, even I THINK too when I talk about kanter. I don't treat him like he's going to be a force, but just a solid big man with the type of game that most certainly not one dimensional and the type that is more trustworthy in the draft.

U18 Euros and 2nd tier American HS players are pretty much mean nothing compared to nba-level, these are not really evidences, its just examples that you use as assumption to assume he will do well defensively in the nba. All these BB clips are misleading. BB blocks alot of shots in the U18 euros league but the people he faced are not nba talent-level especially when it comes to skills and are not as physicals as the ones in the nba. Even in the hoop summit, its just an all star game where players aren't even playing according to the playbook. These guys just drive right to the basket recklessly and carelessly. It's so easy to block these type of shots in these all star games, like the ones you see in jordan brand or all american games. All these things we all see can be misleading. But using these as the so-called evidences to assume they will be a "force" in the nba is inaccurate.
Some great hyped shot-blockers could always just end up being just one-dimensional player, like Darko, like birdman or Jason Maxiell or many others. Is one-dimensional player worthy of a high pick? It's not the first time that people hyped shotblockers and take them high in the draft, in the past years how many of them actually panned out successfully in the nba? We've seen major failures like darko, thabeet and tyrus thomas being taken high in the draft, they're good shot-blockers but definitely not defensive "force" or game-changing material.

[5DOM]

I wouldn't say the data we have are "misleading" but perhaps "inconclusive". Btw, Biyombo didn't play in the U18 euro league. He played in the ACB which is the second best domestic league in the world. Doing well there is more impressive than owning bunch of U18 Euro kids or US JV teams as the tallest and strongest player on the court. If you think the competition Biyombo faced isn't any close to the NBA, the one Kanter faced is definitely not. In fact, I doubt more than a few can even play in the ACB right now. And, like you said, block #s are inflated in All Star games, but at the same, no one's blocked 10 times at the Hoops Summit iirc. I think he's shown more than enough both in the ACB and the Hoops Summit game that he has the potential to become a great shot blocker in the NBA. Btw, I never said Biyombo's definitely going to be a defensive force either. I said he COULD become one, so don't act like I guaranteed anything

[ATLTimekeeper]

^I think he was the first player in the history of the event to block 10. And those players are playing hard. It's an all-star game in the sense that the victory doesn't matter, but those kids are playing in front of NBA scouts and GMs. They're not interested in looking bad by driving recklessly into shotblockers.

[bboyskinnylegs]

Biyombo is not a one-dimensional shotblocker, there's a lot more to his defense than his ability to block shots (as I pointed out in my earlier post). Btw, Biyombo didn't do this in a U18 European league, his stats are from playing at the senior level for Fuenlabrada in the ACB.

Obviously names like Darko, Thabeet, Tyrus, and Sene will come up when you talk about drafting Biyombo. Darko and Thabeet have similar length, but are not on the same level athletically as Biyombo-- they have nowhere near the kind of quickness/explosiveness that he does. Thabeet was also 22 when he was drafted, so it's not like he had much upside to bank on. Tyrus was a great athlete (like Biyombo appears to be), but a 9'0" standing reach and 7'3" wingspan is below average for a C---and Tyrus was 20 when he was drafted, and weighed 217lbs vs. Biyombo's solid 243. And much more importantly, it was Tyrus' mental makeup and understanding of his role that has held him back the most.

Also, both Tyrus and Thabeet weren't as good shotblockers *in college* as Biyombo is in the ACB. The difference in the level of play has to count for something, Biyombo certainly wasn't a giant playing against smaller players.

[nahom1319]

I think Fredricks post was directed at me with regard to the comments on Bismack. I never insinuated he would be a force defensively. Simply that he with his defensive prowess (that you made mention of) would be the better fit. You mentioned the grand ol' rule of Drafting BPA...what happens when you don't think there is a BPA. Answer: you go for fit.

I really don't think BB or Enes have an edge on each other as overall players. Enes may be a great positional defender, and when he proves that he will have my vote. Until he does that or Bismack somehow develops a jumpshot before the draft, IMO they are fairly equal in terms of skill. People want to drool over Enes's skilled offensive repitore, I think Bismack is equally skilled defensively. To discount one is to discredit one side of the court.

We currently have one the most "skilled" offensive bigmen in the league. We don't have much in the way of true defenders. So when I see a defensive prospect my eyes light up as those players (the truly skilled defensive prospects) are few and far between. So I'm gonna keep a close eye on him and I hope management is taking notes...

[CanadaB-Ball]

Imagine if Bismack is all he's made out to be defensively. We end up selecting him and he turns out great for us defensively, like a Ben Wallace type. I know, I know, very unlikely but here me out.

So Bismack turns out being great defensively, and we go into the 2012 draft with a top pick and we end up selecting Michael Gilchrist.

That would give us an unbelievable inside-outside duo on the defensive end. Bismack and Gilchrist (assuming what I hear about Gilchrist is true).

Preferably we would be able to pick up another pick in order to fill our point guard need, unless of course Bayless proves to be a good fit, in which case we wouldn't need another lottery pick. However, if Bayless doesn't prove to be the answer, and we are able to pick up another lottery pick, a future line-up of Kabongo-DeRozan-Gilchrist-Davis-Biyombo would be deadly defensively. Unfortuanetly this lineup would mean we would have to have a very offesive minded bench. So I would propose a bench of Bayless-Barbosa-Johnson(provides a little bit of everything)-A. Johnson-Bargnani. This bench can flat out score, in many ways. Of course the defense isn't the greatest, but the offense would perfectly compliment the defense the starting line-up would give.

This, of course, is just a pipe dream but would most definetly be ideal in my opinion. I don't know why I proposed this as it more than likely won't happen, but it's nice to speak hypothetically once in a while.

[5DOM]

Yeah that would be ideal. Our current starting lineup basically becomes our new bench lol

[CanadaB-Ball]

Yeah that would be ideal. Our current starting lineup basically becomes our new bench lol

Yeah pretty much.

I just think the two lineups would compliment each other perfectly, and the bench wouldn't be completely exploited defensively due to the fact they'd be playing the other teams bench. Their offense would be even more outstanding as well for the same reason their defense wouldn't be exploited.

An exciting but highly improbable thought.

[Silk Wilkes]

If I could see into the future and that exact scenario played out I'd be all for it. However, I'm not even related to Mrs. Cleo so Irving, Williams or Kanter it remains!!!

[MEDIC]

Sure his rebounding was fine at the Hoops Summit game, but that was just one game (and under All Star setting). He was also pretty good statistically against U18 Euros and US JV teams, but they are the farthest things from NBA rebounders who are actually going to be longer and/or more athletic than Kanter.

Everything I have read about Kanter (from those that have seen him play) suggests that he goes after the ball hard. A guy that fights for the ball with his size, mobility & strength is going to be a good rebounder.

Reggie Evans is shorter & less athletic than most of the bigs he plays against. He seems to have no problem being the leading rebounder most games. Same could be said about Love.

On the flip side, Bargnani & POB, are more athletic & bigger than a lot of bigs they play against, but they somehow lose the battle most nights.

Rebounding is a mindset. All of the articles written about Kanter state that he has that mindset.