Magic fan... Question about JRich

thelead · Post #1 » by **thelead** » Wed May 4, 2011 11:15 pm

From your point of view (which got to see a really good JRich in last years playoffs), why did he underperform with the Magic? Is it as simple as Steve Nash?

PS Thanks for taking our legit starting center for your scrubs. Your owner is cheap, but ours spends carelessly; I really think our situation is almost as bad.

JasonDaPsycho · Post #2 » by **JasonDaPsycho** » Thu May 5, 2011 12:12 am

I was a part time Magic fan so I could tell you it's the system that ruined the players. The reason is not with the lack of Steve Nash. It's your system. You guys are using him as a straight up three point shooter when he's much more than that. He is strong enough to post up smaller guards but you never see that happening when he's playing for Orlando. Similar case with VC. VC didn't start taking fadeaway contested threes until he played for the Magic. He was taking bad mid range shots but not horrible three pointers back when he's in the Nets.

You can argue that JRich is not making cuts as often as he did here because Steve Nash is not playing for Orlando, but I guarantee you JRich is much better than he's shown in Orlando. His lack of defense can be attributed to the overall lazy system SVG has implemented. It's known that most players prefer to play offense over defense. If you don't even play hard on offense, there's no way you'll play hard on defense. Then throw in the fact that JRich isn't as good of a defender anyways. That's what you get now.

On paper, SVG's system makes sense. Howard draws double teams, throws out to the perimeter for an open shot. But basketball is much more than just theories. More times than not, it's SVG who ruined the team, not the players.

Dalerax · Post #3 » by **Dalerax** » Thu May 5, 2011 12:19 am

Jason is right, it's definitely the system. J-Rich was our leading scorer before he left but instantly dropped a ton of PPG when he joined the Magic. The Suns system suited his playstyle much more than the Magic system does.

JasonDaPsycho · Post #4 » by **JasonDaPsycho** » Thu May 5, 2011 12:24 am

Like Dalerax said, he was our leading scorer before he was traded to Orlando. The thing is, yes, JRich is an off-the-ball player, but he's more than a strict three point shooter.

b-ball forever · Post #5 » by **b-ball forever** » Thu May 5, 2011 1:09 am

J-Rich plays better in an uptempo system next to ballhandlers who can create (Nash in PHX, Baron and S-Jax/Monta/Dunleavy in Golden State), but he did do pretty good in Charlotte despite their slow system and lack of high quality playmaking.

He took half a year to adjust when he joined the Suns, so maybe if he sticks around with the Magic next year him and the rest of the players/coach will figure out a way to make him productive again.
He got worse on both ends since he joined Orlando, but he can do a lot better.

Unfortunately for the Magic Hedo's the one that's locked up long term and J-Rich is the expiring. Not our problem anymore, thankfully.

Post #6 » by **Qwigglez** » Thu May 5, 2011 1:31 am

The Magic are in a pretty bad spot themselves, but until you lose Dwight, things can't be as bad.
J-Rich was one of our leaders in Phoenix along with Nash & Hill (in the playoffs). It seemed like he had to take a step back with the Magic, and get accustomed to his new teammates and such. I think he really just accepted he was going to be a role player with the Magic.

I hope he comes back to Phoenix if the Suns are trying to give it another shot next year.

gino_giode · Post #7 » by **gino_giode** » Thu May 5, 2011 5:07 am

Was JRich actually proficient in the post? When I look at him, he isn't that big and strong looking so I can't picture him just methodically backing down SGs. And of course he'd fair well against smaller guards, he's in the top percentile of athleticism so he can easily shoot over them. So which is it? Is he the type to back down his man or face up for a quick ISO move to finish or just shoot over top?

In the Magic telecasts of the Hawks-Magic series, Steele and Goukas were commenting on how uncomfortable JRich looked getting the ball in the post (I think game 5). I only recall a handful of times he got the ball in the post and he never got anything out of it. Perhaps just better defense from the Hawks.

Btw, Vince was actually used in much the same way JRich is. Of course he has a better ISO game. But when Vince struggled big time, Stan brought in LFrank to help, which in effect forced Stan to give Vince set plays in the post. If not for Vince's post ups, he would have probably averaged 13-14 PPG like JRich did this season for the Magic.

MarJJMar · Post #8 » by **MarJJMar** » Thu May 5, 2011 7:07 am

JRich sucked for the Suns as well in the first season after the trade, some people were wishing we still had Raja and how only Dudley validated the trade.

JMac1 · Post #9 » by **JMac1** » Thu May 5, 2011 3:15 pm

MarJJMar wrote:JRich sucked for the Suns as well in the first season after the trade, some people were wishing we still had Raja and how only Dudley validated the trade.

ReallY?

BTW, Goukass doesn't know what he is talking about; J-Rich dominates smaller guards in the post!! If you dont think so, see the Dallas game when we benched Amare and ALL of the GS games he played with us. On second thought, just ask Monta and Curry.

RunSunRun · Post #10 » by **RunSunRun** » Thu May 5, 2011 5:46 pm

JJMar is right, I also remember most of the board ragging on JRich for most of his first year in Phoenix, it all came together when he missed that wide open dunk against the Spurs in the regular season that would have tied the game. People were justified in their dislike of him at the point, I'll admit.

However, he really turned his game around once he got use to our system and became one of the better players we've had in recent years. If Orlando gives him time, I can see him adapting again, although I hope you guys give up on him and we pick him back up, :lol:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7vD1cVhsAc[/youtube]

Post #11 » by **Miklo** » Thu May 5, 2011 8:28 pm

JMac1 wrote:
MarJJMar wrote:JRich sucked for the Suns as well in the first season after the trade, some people were wishing we still had Raja and how only Dudley validated the trade.

ReallY?

Yep and it was more than just some people too, there was a lot of that talk

YFZblu · Post #12 » by **YFZblu** » Thu May 5, 2011 9:24 pm

FML watching that Jrich dunk really pisses me off. That, and when he left Roger Mason wide open for the game-winner on Christmas day.

He really did redeem himself though...Which says alot because I was quoting Kobe alot during Jrich's first year here:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3-lpFToU9k[/youtube]

JohnVancouver · Post #13 » by **JohnVancouver** » Fri May 6, 2011 1:43 am

Miklo wrote:
JMac1 wrote:
MarJJMar wrote:JRich sucked for the Suns as well in the first season after the trade, some people were wishing we still had Raja and how only Dudley validated the trade.

ReallY?

Yep and it was more than just some people too, there was a lot of that talk

I was one of them and i had a lot of company - a big part of it, too, was that Boris (no matter how much of a headache he was with his on/off play) and Raja were key parts of the great team we were dismantling to make Terry Porter happy ......

I'd still like to take a peek at that alternat universe where we kept those two and jettisoned TP ... but I'm real happy we got Duds, and JRich really came to be a Sun in the end

GMATCallahan · Post #14 » by **GMATCallahan** » Sun May 15, 2011 12:17 pm

JasonDaPsycho wrote:I was a part time Magic fan so I could tell you it's the system that ruined the players. The reason is not with the lack of Steve Nash. It's your system. You guys are using him as a straight up three point shooter when he's much more than that. He is strong enough to post up smaller guards but you never see that happening when he's playing for Orlando. Similar case with VC. VC didn't start taking fadeaway contested threes until he played for the Magic. He was taking bad mid range shots but not horrible three pointers back when he's in the Nets.

You can argue that JRich is not making cuts as often as he did here because Steve Nash is not playing for Orlando, but I guarantee you JRich is much better than he's shown in Orlando. His lack of defense can be attributed to the overall lazy system SVG has implemented. It's known that most players prefer to play offense over defense. If you don't even play hard on offense, there's no way you'll play hard on defense. Then throw in the fact that JRich isn't as good of a defender anyways. That's what you get now.

On paper, SVG's system makes sense. Howard draws double teams, throws out to the perimeter for an open shot. But basketball is much more than just theories. More times than not, it's SVG who ruined the team, not the players.

Howard is certainly to blame to a large extent; in Orlando's First Round loss to Atlanta, he passed for 3 assists against 33 turnovers. When your leading scorer records such an inept assists-to-turnover ratio and when there isn't an elite playmaker such as Steve Nash to balance that ineptitude, then a complementary scorer such as Jason Richardson is going to suffer.

GMATCallahan · Post #15 » by **GMATCallahan** » Sun May 15, 2011 12:22 pm

thelead wrote:From your point of view (which got to see a really good JRich in last years playoffs), why did he underperform with the Magic? Is it as simple as Steve Nash?

PS Thanks for taking our legit starting center for your scrubs. Your owner is cheap, but ours spends carelessly; I really think our situation is almost as bad.

Richardson didn't underachieve with Orlando so much as he overachieved for Phoenix. Upon joining the Magic, he basically just dropped back to his career shooting percentages prior to becoming a Sun.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/richaja01.html

Post #16 » by **lilfishi22** » Sun May 15, 2011 12:58 pm

I didn't watch the Orlando series but only looked at the stats. Howard has 3 assist to 33 TO's which is shocking but Orlando's shooters didn't shoot particularly well either from the 3.

Jameer Nelson: 6 for 26
Hedo Turkoglu: 7 - 30
Jason Richardson: 8 - 25
Gilbert Arenas: 3 - 12
J.J. Redick: 1 - 15
Ryan Anderson: 6 - 20

Probably not telling the whole story but as I said, I didn't watch the Orlando series at all.

YFZblu · Post #17 » by **YFZblu** » Sun May 15, 2011 4:24 pm

lilfishi22 wrote:I didn't watch the Orlando series but only looked at the stats. Howard has 3 assist to 33 TO's which is shocking but Orlando's shooters didn't shoot particularly well either from the 3.

Dwight Howard's AST/TO ratio was pretty sad this post-season, and yeah, in season's past his AST/TO ratio has been better when he had a more complete team around him. However, he's always shown an intrinsic inability to take care of the basketball when the double/triple team comes. Similar to Amar'e Stoudemire.

Post #18 » by **lilfishi22** » Sun May 15, 2011 5:18 pm

YFZblu wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:I didn't watch the Orlando series but only looked at the stats. Howard has 3 assist to 33 TO's which is shocking but Orlando's shooters didn't shoot particularly well either from the 3.

Dwight Howard's AST/TO ratio was pretty sad this post-season, and yeah, in season's past his AST/TO ratio has been better when he had a more complete team around him. However, he's always shown an intrinsic inability to take care of the basketball when the double/triple team comes. Similar to Amar'e Stoudemire.

Yeah pretty much. Just pointed out that his AST/TO ratio my have been better if his team mates had hit more outside shots. But it would've probably been marginal anyway.

YFZblu · Post #19 » by **YFZblu** » Sun May 15, 2011 5:30 pm

lilfishi22 wrote:
YFZblu wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:I didn't watch the Orlando series but only looked at the stats. Howard has 3 assist to 33 TO's which is shocking but Orlando's shooters didn't shoot particularly well either from the 3.

Dwight Howard's AST/TO ratio was pretty sad this post-season, and yeah, in season's past his AST/TO ratio has been better when he had a more complete team around him. However, he's always shown an intrinsic inability to take care of the basketball when the double/triple team comes. Similar to Amar'e Stoudemire.

Yeah pretty much. Just pointed out that his AST/TO ratio my have been better if his team mates had hit more outside shots. But it would've probably been marginal anyway.

Offensive fouls also result in nearly 1 turnover per game for Dwight Howard...He recorded 77 offensive fouls this season.

In comparison:

Kevin Garnett: 22 (71 games)
Amar'e: 52 (78 games)
Al Jefferson: 9 (82 games)
Duncan: 18 (76 games)
Gasol: 9 (82 games)

Revived · Post #20 » by **Revived** » Mon May 16, 2011 7:48 am

Main thing I didnt like about J-Rich was he was awful in clutch situations.

He left Mason wide open for that 3 on Christmas Day, then misses a wide open dunk that would have tied the game and fails to box out Artest on the last f****** play of the WCFs GM 5!!!

Who knows where we would have been had Artest never got that put back layup...we had enough momentum and with LA in shock we could have beat em in OT and then rode the momentum to PHX for the GM 6 victory. And considerimg that Boston had no answer for us doing the regular season, I'm pretty sure they couldnt have stopped us in the playoffs when we were better ith a very good bench.

Oh well coulda woulda shoulda...