2010-11 Player of the Year thread

[colts18]

Dirk is proving me right for saying he was the MVP. He has 40 points compared to the other 4 players on his starting lineup having a combined 18 points.

[alucryts]

So Dwight didn't perform well in the playoffs or...?

his team faced a meh hawks team and lost. no one on a team that has a first round exit will be anywhere near poy for me.

[JordansBulls]

Dirk is proving me right for saying he was the MVP. He has 40 points compared to the other 4 players on his starting lineup having a combined 18 points.

And bench scored 53 points.

[Vinsanity420]

Dirk "fell" a lot in the past week simply because he hasn't played. If the Mavs win, expect the hype to be back. Recency bias will cause havoc in the voting for this thing if it's done right after the Finals. Waiting even a couple months will do a lot of good, I think.

I am feeling this now. After what I saw tonight, I AM REALLY TEMPTED to vote Dirk #1 for POY and get this over with.

Gotta keep telling myself season ain't over, season ain't over, look at the big picture.

[Doctor MJ]

Dirk is proving me right for saying he was the MVP. He has 40 points compared to the other 4 players on his starting lineup having a combined 18 points.

And bench scored 53 points.

Both statements I respond to hear needlessly polarized matters.

Dirk scoring 48 points on 15 FGA is without question a performance far better than any player in history (Dirk included obviously) could put up on a regular basis. Amazing stuff.

[ElGee]

48 points on 94% TS. Meh. At least Terry Porter cracked 1,000

http://www.basketball-reference.com/box ... 90POR.html

[Gongxi]

So Dwight didn't perform well in the playoffs or...?

his team faced a meh hawks team and lost. no one on a team that has a first round exit will be anywhere near poy for me.

That doesn't say anything about HIM, though. What could he have done better?

Anyway, I won't hate on any hype Dirk gets for last night's game. Dude deserves whatever hype comes from last night.

[alucryts]

So Dwight didn't perform well in the playoffs or...?

his team faced a meh hawks team and lost. no one on a team that has a first round exit will be anywhere near poy for me.

That doesn't say anything about HIM, though. What could he have done better?

Anyway, I won't hate on any hype Dirk gets for last night's game. Dude deserves whatever hype comes from last night.

it doesnt matter to me what it says about him. the player of the year to me is a combination of best player and who the year would be remembered most for. 10 years from now no one is going to say "you remember how great dwight was?" the most they will say is "ya he got knocked out in the first round that team sucked".......i cannot give any poy love to a guy thats not even in the second round of the most important part of the NBA year. he literally means nothing to the 2010-2011 season other than a bunch of good numbers on a bad playoff team.

the four people with a reasonable shot at poy are wade, lebron, rose, and dirk. rose and dirk can take it if they win the title and if not, wade or lebron to me are going to take it. there is a very outside chance durant gets it but hed have to change my mind for me to go that way. 10 years from now people will remember the first year wade and lebron had together, they will remember the youngest mvp in history winning the title, they will remember dirk pulling through at the twilight of his career to finally win a title. they will not remember a first round after thought who put up good numbers.

[mysticbb]

10 years from now people will remember the first year wade and lebron had together, they will remember the youngest mvp in history winning the title, they will remember dirk pulling through at the twilight of his career to finally win a title. they will not remember a first round after thought who put up good numbers.

And that is a shame. Seriously, the voting should be about the best players and for me that are the players with the best combination of production, efficiency and impact. There is NO WAY that Dwight Howard is not among the Top5 players in this season and I don't see any legit argument to leave him out. James and Howard should be on EVERY ballot. We don't need a voting which shows us the public bias, those who want to vote like that should be left out of the voting process.

I want that people in 10 years remember that Howard played great for this season, that he was one of the Top5 players in 2010/11.

Ranking for me right now:

1. James
2. Howard
3. Nowitzki
4. Wade
5. Rose/Durant

Only change is Nowitzki won the tie over Wade. Right now Nowitzki leads all players in the playoffs in PER and WS/48. The guy is posting the best +/- numbers from all candidates for the season. The hype is justified by his play throughout the season, the only knock on him is the missed games.
It is quite interesting to see that Durant also missed 4 games, the Thunder went 3-1 in those games. Overall Nowitzki played in less games while winning more. Nowitzki's stats are better than Durant's overall (advanced boxscore metrics plus +/- based metrics), there is no way that I can put Durant over Nowitzki, even if Durant would outplay Nowitzki for the rest of that series.
To me to consider Nowitzki over Howard, Nowitzki needs to keep up his level of play for the rest of the playoffs. In that case I seriously consider it. If James can't bring his playing level up to his regular season level, he might very well end up not being the #1 player anymore for me in this season.

Regarding Zach Randolph: Some said he played like that in previous seasons too, but got no love, because his team lost more games. That isn't true. Watch Randolph play, he has slightly improved defensively, but he has more improved his passing game. Not only is he more accurate, but he is also more willing to pass. That is a big change in the nature of his play and helps increasing his positive impact. Randolph posted his best +/- metrics ever, his boxscore metrics are also above his career average. Randolph played better than in previous seasons and that is one of the reasons the Grizzlies surprised. Still, that is not enough to see him as a Top5 player in 2010/11, I would take a couple of players (like Aldridge, Garnett or Ginobili) over him.

As most have seen I didn't mention Bryant yet, which should indicate that I don't think he had a Top5 season. Why? His offense was still up there and I could make a case for him being 4th or 5th offensively, but his defense was weak. No matter what the coaches wanted to see in him, but he was a major weakness in the Lakers defense and one of the main reasons the Mavericks were able to cause havoc on the perimeter. Watch Bryant closely defensively when he has to defend off the ball, he constantly loses his man on screens, doesn't close out on the perimeter, is sometimes completely lost in transistion and can't find his man anymore. For sure he can give you that best scorer in the game stretch for like 15 or 20 minutes, but that's about it. One of the reasons Jackson gave him so much rest in the 4th quarter was Bryant's lack of stamina to do it for 40+ minutes while playing effective defense. That is not Top5 worthy. Talk about Ginobili's lack of playing time all you want, but Ginobili plays tough and with energy on both ends of the court, not only on offense. That's the major difference between those two players and why I would pick Ginobili over Bryant in 2010/11.

[alucryts]

10 years from now people will remember the first year wade and lebron had together, they will remember the youngest mvp in history winning the title, they will remember dirk pulling through at the twilight of his career to finally win a title. they will not remember a first round after thought who put up good numbers.

And that is a shame. Seriously, the voting should be about the best players and for me that are the players with the best combination of production, efficiency and impact. There is NO WAY that Dwight Howard is not among the Top5 players in this season and I don't see any legit argument to leave him out. James and Howard should be on EVERY ballot. We don't need a voting which shows us the public bias, those who want to vote like that should be left out of the voting process.

I want that people in 10 years remember that Howard played great for this season, that he was one of the Top5 players in 2010/11.

my list is not listing who i think are the top 5 players in the NBA. i am taking player of the year in a more lliteral direction; we are operating under different definitions. my top 5 players are:

lebron
howard
wade
rose and durant
dirk

and as for howard and a great season, he put up, to me, slightly hollow numbers (not kevin love/monta ellis hollow by any stretch but still). it bothers me and i cannot shake the fact that teams would literally let him do whatever he wants on offense 1v1 and not care. heck the bulls had boozer guard him multiple trips down the floor 1v1. on my player of the year rankings he would be 6th because of how heavily i weigh the playoffs. to me numbers become less important when the other team says "go ahead do whatever you want". it inflates his numbers in my eyes beyond where his impact on offense truly lies. in terms of single year player of the year, he to me is 6th this year.

[mysticbb]

my list is not listing who i think are the top 5 players in the NBA. i am taking player of the year in a more lliteral direction; we are operating under different definitions.

How does your definition makes any sense when we are talking about individual players?

I think we should look at the performance of the players and should decide which player would we take in hindsight when we have to build a team for the 2010/11 season. And if I interpret your Top5 list correctly, you would also take Howard 2nd after James. Why wouldn't you vote like this?

Howard didn't produce hollow numbers, his +/- numbers are backing his impact up. He was 3rd in APM during the regular season, he is now 5th in RAPM overall for this season. His level of production and his efficiency are making him for sure a Top5 candidate. Howard was one of the best defenders last season, saying his numbers were just "hollow" is quite a wrong statement.

Weighting playoff performances is good, but what should have Howard done better? 27/16 on 68 TS% is amazing. During the time he was on the court the Magic outscored the Hawks 469 to 454. What did you expect from him? Going for 40/20 in each game? His teammates failed to deliver in that series, that was a big issue for the Magic. Do you really want to blame Howard completely and not give him a vote for the 2010/11 season because of weak teammates?

[alucryts]

my list is not listing who i think are the top 5 players in the NBA. i am taking player of the year in a more lliteral direction; we are operating under different definitions.

How does your definition makes any sense when we are talking about individual players?

I think we should look at the performance of the players and should decide which player would we take in hindsight when we have to build a team for the 2010/11 season. And if I interpret your Top5 list correctly, you would also take Howard 2nd after James. Why wouldn't you vote like this?

Howard didn't produce hollow numbers, his +/- numbers are backing his impact up. He was 3rd in APM during the regular season, he is now 5th in RAPM overall for this season. His level of production and his efficiency are making him for sure a Top5 candidate. Howard was one of the best defenders last season, saying his numbers were just "hollow" is quite a wrong statement.

Weighting playoff performances is good, but what should have Howard done better? 27/16 on 68 TS% is amazing. During the time he was on the court the Magic outscored the Hawks 469 to 454. What did you expect from him? Going for 40/20 in each game? His teammates failed to deliver in that series, that was a big issue for the Magic. Do you really want to blame Howard completely and not give him a vote for the 2010/11 season because of weak teammates?

my top 5 players overall is a top 5 that is made up taking several seasons of play into account, therefore to me it doesnt make sense in using those to vote on POY 2010-2011.

and under my definition, your line of assuming the numbers dwight puts up state his actual ability and impact on offense is incorrect. if all superstars were given dwights defensive attention, i dont think dwight would stick out as much. i mean, nearly all of dwights case is rooted in the regular season where flat out there are teams that are trying to lose, players are coasting, and other tertiary motives for not playing up to potential. on top of that like i stated defenses are literally giving dwight whatever he wants at times. when i take that all into consideration, his true impact is less than what the stats say. his stats to me are earned on an unfair playing field with respect to the rest of the poy candidates/super stars and stats will not show that. stats assume dwight's first round 1v1 attention is the same as rose's first round mega blitz attention on defense. simply watching the games can tell you one person is working a helllllll of a lot harder than the other for the same exact stat categories. its cases like this that hurt statistics power in my definition; its the lowry=rose syndrome in a sense.

im not saying dwight doesnt have a top 5 POY impact, i just think there are 5 players who have more of a case than he does for POY. dwight has had a top 5 poy type of year for me, there are just 6 such players in the NBA right now and someone is going to get left off. under my definition and ranking he is easily that player that is put into the 5b category, which is unfortunate because is strips him of all credit under a strict 5 person ranking. its the nature of the beast out here that one of the top 6 is going to get shafted at the end. you can say the same "how in the heck is wade/lebron/rose/dwight/durant NOT top 5 to you???" at the end of this because one of them is going to get left off.

lebron, wade, durant, rose, dirk, and howard are your top 6 in no specific order and deserve some POY shares. on everyone's final ranking, one of these players will get shafted and someone is going to go "how can you leave xxxx off????? their NOT in the top 5?"

[nonemus]

Noone is going to remember it because the common public is dumbfoundingly stupid and doesn't acknowledge great basketball when they see it (or rather, they allow their inclinations to be ruled by the agenda of the media)

He put up a F***ing 27/17 on 68% TS.

Can we establish guidelines that anyone with outlandish opinions shouldn't be allowed to vote? Ex, No Howard in top 5 this year. There was a also a poster (you know who it is) who didn't have Wade in his top 5 in 2006, 2009 or 2010.

I just don't see how the opinion of these guys can be taken seriously.

[nonemus]

Howard has a good argument for being the best player in the league (As Wade/Lebron's impact is minimized because they play on the same team).

THERE IS NO WAY he's not in top 5.

Wow. That's just ridiculous.

[Gongxi]

I agree. The logic behind that is atrocious.

[mysticbb]

my top 5 players overall is a top 5 that is made up taking several seasons of play into account, therefore to me it doesnt make sense in using those to vote on POY 2010-2011.

So, you really want to tell me, if you would go back in time, you wouldn't pick Howard over one of the 5 guys you listed over him for the 2010/11 season, because his teammates failed to deliver in the first round?

and under my definition, your line of assuming the numbers dwight puts up state his actual ability and impact on offense is incorrect.

Please, tell me, what is your definition? I just don't see any coherent definition which would lead to a ranking in which Rose, Durant and Nowitzki are all ahead of Howard.

if all superstars were given dwights defensive attention, i dont think dwight would stick out as much. i mean, nearly all of dwights case is rooted in the regular season where flat out there are teams that are trying to lose, players are coasting, and other tertiary motives for not playing up to potential. on top of that like i stated defenses are literally giving dwight whatever he wants at times. when i take that all into consideration, his true impact is less than what the stats say. his stats to me are earned on an unfair playing field with respect to the rest of the poy candidates/super stars and stats will not show that. stats assume dwight's first round 1v1 attention is the same as rose's first round mega blitz attention on defense. simply watching the games can tell you one person is working a helllllll of a lot harder than the other for the same exact stat categories. its cases like this that hurt statistics power in my definition; its the lowry=rose syndrome in a sense.

That all makes no sense at all. You are basically want to imply that Howard didn't have to work hard for his impact (which is still there, the numbers are backing it up), thus he should be punished. It makes no sense at all. You are talking about transcendent things as if they were real and the only source of those are your eyes. No idea, but I have a hard time thinking that your eyes are better at evaluating players than mine. Because that is basically what you are trying to imply here.

And who the hell said Lowry=Rose by stats? There might be one particular stats, but the overall picture shows clearly Rose as the statistical better player.

under my definition and ranking he is easily that player that is put into the 5b category,

How can it be easily? And I have still no idea what definition you have.

lebron, wade, durant, rose, dirk, and howard are your top 6 in no specific order and deserve some POY shares. on everyone's final ranking, one of these players will get shafted and someone is going to go "how can you leave xxxx off????? their NOT in the top 5?"

No, I can understand when people would leave off Durant, I might understand leaving off Rose, but there is no way I understand not voting for Howard, because he lost in the first round while his teammates sucked. Howard played great, he played as good as anyone in the league, and I can even see legit arguments for him being the POY despite the early exit. Putting players on the list just because their teams are successful without looking into the context is something I can't understand.

[Sinant]

I'm with the field on this one.

Not having Dwight in your Top 5 is unacceptable.

[alucryts]

Noone is going to remember it because the common public is dumbfoundingly stupid and doesn't acknowledge great basketball when they see it (or rather, they allow their inclinations to be ruled by the agenda of the media)

He put up a F***ing 27/17 on 68% TS.

Can we establish guidelines that anyone with outlandish opinions shouldn't be allowed to vote? Ex, No Howard in top 5 this year. There was a also a poster (you know who it is) who didn't have Wade in his top 5 in 2006, 2009 or 2010.

I just don't see how the opinion of these guys can be taken seriously.

the stats were in 6 games with a 2-4 record against vanilla defense.....excuse me if i dont take the sample size and context seriously? would it be ok if i put lebron/wade/rose/dirk/durant and howard instead of chopping the list off early?

-The criteria of "best season" is meant to emulate MVP thinking. Obviously different people think about MVP differently, so it's okay that the same holds for our POY. That said, this is a proof-in-pudding award. If a player got injured, got disgruntled, etc one season, that has to be factored in.

my vote counts as only 1, just because its not a ranking heavily weighted by stats doesnt mean its irrelevant.

[nonemus]

I guess Derrick Rose shouldn't be in anyone's top 5 then. He PS doesn't count for much, as he played teams with an average SRS of -1.20 (two of the worst playoff teams of the decade). And his RS is not worthy of being better than that of Howard/James/Wade/Kobe/Durant.

amirite?

[alucryts]

So, you really want to tell me, if you would go back in time, you wouldn't pick Howard over one of the 5 guys you listed over him for the 2010/11 season, because his teammates failed to deliver in the first round?

dwight has a good argument, the other 5 have better for me. dwight has top 5 impact, but to me there are 6 players who have that impact. since i weigh playoffs so heavily, a first round exit is going to be weak. stats are saying dwights stats against 1v1 "give him whatever" defense in 6 games are the same as any of the other poy great stats over more games, stiffer defense, and against tougher teams later in the playoffs. i wouldnt object to someone having him as high as #2 under other definitions because other people's definitions are just as important to include in the grand scheme of things. a lot of arguments in here are STRONGLY influenced by statistics, and mine is only partially. i thin its important to have opinions of all kinds involved in this discussion and because my definition is not yours, i dont appreciate you and others trying to dismiss is as you have. i have provided reasoning to you and while you dont agree with it, it IS a valid point of view. i dont think your definition is correct, but i recognize it as a valid one. all of this will be averaged out in the end.

Please, tell me, what is your definition? I just don't see any coherent definition which would lead to a ranking in which Rose, Durant and Nowitzki are all ahead of Howard.

every coherent definition does not need to revolve 100% around stats. i have laid my definition out as essentially a blend of stats, context, and who this season will be most remembered for. that to me consists of something as general of player of the year. dwight is only strong in one of those categories while the other top 5 are stronger in those all around.

That all makes no sense at all. You are basically want to imply that Howard didn't have to work hard for his impact (which is still there, the numbers are backing it up), thus he should be punished. It makes no sense at all. You are talking about transcendent things as if they were real and the only source of those are your eyes. No idea, but I have a hard time thinking that your eyes are better at evaluating players than mine. Because that is basically what you are trying to imply here.

And who the hell said Lowry=Rose by stats? There might be one particular stats, but the overall picture shows clearly Rose as the statistical better player.

first off the lowry=rose argument was an extreme example of what stats are able to say. a terrible article was written essentially saying rose was only as good as lowry...again it was terrible but an example of stats misinterpretting. stats give the ultimate positive benefit of the doubt in dwights case.

How can it be easily? And I have still no idea what definition you have.

by my heavy weighting of the playoffs and how i negatively weight first round exits, to me it is easy he is 5b.

No, I can understand when people would leave off Durant, I might understand leaving off Rose, but there is no way I understand not voting for Howard, because he lost in the first round while his teammates sucked. Howard played great, he played as good as anyone in the league, and I can even see legit arguments for him being the POY despite the early exit. Putting players on the list just because their teams are successful without looking into the context is something I can't understand.

i could understand howard over durant, but rose as MVP and hows hes playing now no way. the context to me is he has a bad team. that is both positive and negative. negative as in he is sitting on his couch now, he faced VANILLA defense for his stats. positive as is he played great in the limited games. i weighted the negative higher than the positive.