Lang Greene - Fixing the Hawks

[evildallas]

Part of the Hoopsworld 5 step series:

http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=19815

Quick summary:
(1) Free Joe Johnson - I would try to explain this one but I didn't understand it. Something about using Joe more at the right point.
(2) Pick Al or Josh and trade the other one. Valid point that they are the most sought after players on the roster and their games are quite similar considering they are both PFs.
(3) Turn the offense over to Jeff Teague. Amen.
(4) Pay Jamal Crawford - Argues that continuity and lack of other options merits paying Jamal.
(5) Retool on the fly - get a center and look to make deals. He didn't have much to really offer on this point, but he thinks Marvin is less unmovable now that another year is off his contract.

Quick comments -
The first 3 points all make sense to me. #4 is a point I disagree with quite a bit. The truth is that Jamal disappeared in the Bulls series and can be negated by tough playoff defense. To me Jamal is an instant fix that gets overused by Drew or at least misused. Jamal should never be PG. He doesn't create for those around him and while his instant offense will be hard to replace without a coach to use him judiciously we're better off spending elsewhere especially given the team's financial constraints.

The final point he makes is just lip service. He assumes that Marvin can be moved because he has an ETO clause for the last year of his deal. No way Marvin opts out. At this point he'd be lucky to get 3M a year let alone the 8M that he's due in the last year and that is before the new CBA tightens things up. The point about a C is understood, but how do we get this C. We're cap strapped so assuming the MLE still exists our only option is to overpay one of these bigs and hope we win out for their services. It's also funny that he says we should be open to making moves right after he argues for paying Jamal because of the importance of consistency.

What do you think of Lang Greene's ideas?

[Geaux_Hawks]

No head coaching change??

All 5 actually make sense. ISO Joe at the right time in games is a good change of pace if you have another type of offense involving the team. A coach with a lot of actual motion plays would really help this team and allow them to take advantage of ISO's at times.

As it says in #2, you got to pick one and get a nice return on the other soon. It's up to ASG in deciding who they want, but IMHO, I say trade Horford, while he still has such significant value. If people are willing to give half their farm and some for him, then the Hawks need to cash that cow.

3, is obvious.

I agree on #4 in a sense that you can pay for his offense in two different ways. One way is to give him a fair deal(4-8 million per) or risk a contender signing him and facing that same offense that helped you torch others the past 2 seasons. Looking at it, you hope he is willing to leave some money on the table in order to stay(4 or 5 million per) since you don't want to overpay nor do you want him on another squad reaping havoc against you.

As far as re-tooling on the fly, ASG simply have to want to pay the tax. No need in flirting with it anymore. You have Joe locked up for another 5 years, and your window is only open for another 2-3 at the least since Joe's game really isn't athletically based. As far as moving Marvin, I think there are moves that can be made if you are willing to take a talented but flawed player or extra salary to get a decent player i.e. Bargnani. I honestly think Marvin needs a change of scenery and for the right price, another GM will take that into consideration.

[parson]

1) We tried to make Joe a #1. He's not. He's a Robin who needs a Batman.
2) Horford and Smith do not hurt each other's play, so there's no problem to be fixed there. We should only trade one of them for a very good Center.
3) Teague's going to be good, but he still needs to grow as a playmaker. Our goal this next year should be to MENTOR Jeff Teague with Hinrich.
4) This is the stupid one. Jamal takes shots from Joe. There is no way to "free Joe" and pay Jamal. Committing to Jamal means giving up on getting a big man. Besides, Jamal takes minutes from Teague.
5) Easy to say.

My opinion:
6) We need to trade Joe for a Center and put the team on Smith and Horford's backs. Let's see if they can rise to the call. Except for Horford's (inexplicable) last month and Smith's occasional lapses into J-Smoove, they've proven to be fighters.

[myrak433]

1) We tried to make Joe a #1. He's not. He's a Robin who needs a Batman.
2) Horford and Smith do not hurt each other's play, so there's no problem to be fixed there. We should only trade one of them for a very good Center.
3) Teague's going to be good, but he still needs to grow as a playmaker. Our goal this next year should be to MENTOR Jeff Teague with Hinrich.
4) This is the stupid one. Jamal takes shots from Joe. There is no way to "free Joe" and pay Jamal. Committing to Jamal means giving up on getting a big man. Besides, Jamal takes minutes from Teague.
5) Easy to say.

My opinion:
6) We need to trade Joe for a Center and put the team on Smith and Horford's backs. Let's see if they can rise to the call. Except for Horford's (inexplicable) last month and Smith's occasional lapses into J-Smoove, they've proven to be fighters.

what center do you think we can get for Joe?

[HMFFL]

Our problems at small forward is the biggest issue we have at the moment as far as the starting lineup goes. I'd love to have a big man inside, but the pool is thin, and the big men Lang mentioned won't take us to the next level. Chris Kaman and Brendan Haywood are about the only two proven big men that are possibly available. Back to the 3; we need one that is capable of hitting 3-pointers. Marvin Williams is regressing under our offense, but he may break out, if Jamal Crawford leaves, so it all depends on the touches Marvin gets during the future.

[azuresou1]

I think we can have Terry/Haywood for Joe Johnson.

[HMFFL]

I think we can have Terry/Haywood for Joe Johnson.

Not much value for Atlanta at all. Jason Terry only provides offense and even that's streaky. Haywood has four years left on his contract and I have my concerns about him being productive during all four years. For Sund to do it more pieces would need to be adding, but I doubt Rodrigue Beaubois is an option, and Dallas lacks young talent & desirable picks. Corey Brewer being adding could be an option, but thanks to Cuban, Brewer is signed for two more years ($3,059,000 & $3,243,000).

[parson]

what center do you think we can get for Joe?

I don't know. What do you think?

Maybe Kanter -- or one of the other Center draft prospects.
Maybe Chandler in a SNT from DAL. He's been good for DAL but they have Haywood for awhile and Joe REALLY fits that team.
CHI would kill to get Joe but I don't see how a deal could be worked out. Noah for Joe would work but he's their soul. Asik would please me but there's no way the $$$ could be added up, unless we took their bench (not likely on both sides).

Joe is worth more than Bogut but their fans can't get past the stigma of Joe's contract.

[azuresou1]

I think we can have Terry/Haywood for Joe Johnson.

Not much value for Atlanta at all. Jason Terry only provides offense and even that's streaky. Haywood has four years left on his contract and I have my concerns about him being productive during all four years. For Sund to do it more pieces would need to be adding, but I doubt Rodrigue Beaubois is an option, and Dallas lacks young talent & desirable picks. Corey Brewer being adding could be an option, but thanks to Cuban, Brewer is signed for two more years ($3,059,000 & $3,243,000).

I would do Terry/Haywood solely to shed salary. I am fine with taking on the remainder of Haywood's contract. Obviously I'd rather have Chandler, but I don't think we could get him.

[HMFFL]

I think we can have Terry/Haywood for Joe Johnson.

Not much value for Atlanta at all. Jason Terry only provides offense and even that's streaky. Haywood has four years left on his contract and I have my concerns about him being productive during all four years. For Sund to do it more pieces would need to be adding, but I doubt Rodrigue Beaubois is an option, and Dallas lacks young talent & desirable picks. Corey Brewer being adding could be an option, but thanks to Cuban, Brewer is signed for two more years ($3,059,000 & $3,243,000).

I would do Terry/Haywood solely to shed salary. I am fine with taking on the remainder of Haywood's contract. Obviously I'd rather have Chandler, but I don't think we could get him.

Do you trust the ASG to use any extra salary wisely? Atlanta will become even less appealing to top free agents if Joe Johnson is no longer here.

[azuresou1]

Not much value for Atlanta at all. Jason Terry only provides offense and even that's streaky. Haywood has four years left on his contract and I have my concerns about him being productive during all four years. For Sund to do it more pieces would need to be adding, but I doubt Rodrigue Beaubois is an option, and Dallas lacks young talent & desirable picks. Corey Brewer being adding could be an option, but thanks to Cuban, Brewer is signed for two more years ($3,059,000 & $3,243,000).

I would do Terry/Haywood solely to shed salary. I am fine with taking on the remainder of Haywood's contract. Obviously I'd rather have Chandler, but I don't think we could get him.

Do you trust the ASG to use any extra salary wisely? Atlanta will become even less appealing to top free agents if Joe Johnson is no longer here.

No, I don't trust the ASG with anything. However, I DO trust that our franchise will be easier to sell to a competent owner once his contract is off our books.

If I'm Arthur Blanks, I'm not touching this franchise as is with a 20 foot pole. Once Joe Johnson gets shed? Then I'd be a lot more inclined to buy.

[evildallas]

A PLEA - Can we stop mentioning Arthur Blank? It is against NFL rules for an NFL owner to buy an NBA franchise. He's not a possibility as an owner because it is better to own an NFL club than an NBA team.

I sort of agree with HMFFL that SF is our biggest problem due to the regression of Marvin Williams into worthlessness. However, I think that it could be solved in more than 1 way. I think it could be addressed with a serviceable starting C and Josh moving to the 3 as his primary position. It could also be addressed by dealing either Josh or Al for other assets. It could also be addressed by inexpensive free agent. The one thing I pray we don't do is trade Al or Josh and assume that Marvin will step up and continue to start him at the 3. I've big doubts that Marvin can be traded as well, so right now I think he has to find a reserve role to contribute.

[azuresou1]

Sure, Blank is not 'technically' allowed to be an owner, but I'm sure his wife or son could 'own' the team. He very well could own both teams - see Stan Kroenke.

Marvin needs a change of scenery, and he likely needs to go, but the biggest issue is and still always be Joe Johnson. You cannot pay a player more than 1/3rd of the salary cap and have him produce at such a mediocre level.

[myrak433]

Sure, Blank is not 'technically' allowed to be an owner, but I'm sure his wife or son could 'own' the team. He very well could own both teams - see Stan Kroenke.

Marvin needs a change of scenery, and he likely needs to go, but the biggest issue is and still always be Joe Johnson. You cannot pay a player more than 1/3rd of the salary cap and have him produce at such a mediocre level.

some of you guys kill me with how much you talk about Joe's money. ]

Listen JJ is our best player period. if we don't have JJ we are a lottery team or at best 8 seed. is JJ Wade, Lebron, or Kobe..... no. but they are 30 teams in the NBA. name me 5 players in the league right now that are better than JJ that can play both SG and SF.... oh JJ can play PG as well.

the fact of the matter is if you add JJ to any of the 30 teams they will be better. even Miami.
Wade, JJ, Lebron, Bosh, Joel Anthony.

so yes we had to pay JJ what we did. get over it. did JJ sleep with you're girl or something.

when Kobe was having a hard time first getting into the playoffs then advancing from 2004/05- 2006/07, did they trade Kobe because he made alot of money? no, they got him what he needed. Pau Gasol. and two years later they won the whole thing.

Know I am not trying to say JJ is as good as Kobe, but who is?, but when Kobe had Medvedenko then Kwame Brown as his starting center he was getting doubled and trippled all night long. and he looked bad out there. kind of like how JJ gets double and trippled. you see when JJ isn't doubled he goes off. get JJ a Pau Gasol or someone like that. Hell Move Horford and Marvin to the Lakers for Pau.

and then see what JJ can do.

[Years80HAWKS]

I would imagine this situation:

- we did not offer 30 year old JJ those 120 mill, so we would have 7/8 mill free a year.
- two years ago we did not resign Marvin for 8 mill a year.
- on February we did not trade Crawford and a draft pick for Hinrich if Teague would have played more.

So right now we would have this roster:

Teague
Jamaal
Smith
Horford
Collins
----------
¿guard?
Crawford
Wilkins
Evans
Powell
Zaza

Taking into account that both Jordan C and Teague would be in their rookie salaries, that Crawford would be also ending his contract, that we would have like 17/18 millions less in salaries because of the ansences of Marvin and JJ, we could land a really good free agent and/or trade for a good center taking also a bad contract with him.
Also, as we would have not mae the POs, we could have landed good rookies.

May be:
- getting Chandler forthe right price.
- getting Bogut.
- getting a good outside scorer at he 2/3.
- getting a good and expensive coach instead of expending money in medium class superstars and saving on coaches.

[myrak433]

I would imagine this situation:

- we did not offer 30 year old JJ those 120 mill, so we would have 7/8 mill free a year.
- two years ago we did not resign Marvin for 8 mill a year.
- on February we did not trade Crawford and a draft pick for Hinrich if Teague would have played more.

So right now we would have this roster:

Teague
Jamaal
Smith
Horford
Collins
----------
¿guard?
Crawford
Wilkins
Evans
Powell
Zaza

Taking into account that both Jordan C and Teague would be in their rookie salaries, that Crawford would be also ending his contract, that we would have like 17/18 millions less in salaries because of the ansences of Marvin and JJ, we could land a really good free agent and/or trade for a good center taking also a bad contract with him.
Also, as we would have not mae the POs, we could have landed good rookies.

May be:
- getting Chandler forthe right price.
- getting Bogut.
- getting a good outside scorer at he 2/3.
- getting a good and expensive coach instead of expending money in medium class superstars and saving on coaches.

maybe it is just me... but I dont see the need to wallow in angry and/or pitty of what we should have done or should not have done.

it is done. now lets try to come up with a solution to get the Hawks better in the future. Jordan Crawford is gone, JJ got his contract, we got Marvin Williams instead of Chris Paul or D-Williams, why in the world did we draft Shelden Williams over Brandon Roy or Rudy Gay. we can go on and on.

but why? lets focus at what we can do in the future plz.

[NWO4Life]

outside of free Joe he states the obvious. probably reads our forum :/

[HMFFL]

No, I don't trust the ASG with anything. However, I DO trust that our franchise will be easier to sell to a competent owner once his contract is off our books.

If I'm Arthur Blanks, I'm not touching this franchise as is with a 20 foot pole. Once Joe Johnson gets shed? Then I'd be a lot more inclined to buy.

I think the main reason why our team won't appeal to some people is due to our poor regular season attendance, not because of Joe Johnson's contract. Being at the cap and being a true playoff contender is appealing no matter how much money Joe Johnson is making. Our core players are going to most likely stay here until the team is sold because without them it won't be as appealing.

[azuresou1]

Sure, Blank is not 'technically' allowed to be an owner, but I'm sure his wife or son could 'own' the team. He very well could own both teams - see Stan Kroenke.

Marvin needs a change of scenery, and he likely needs to go, but the biggest issue is and still always be Joe Johnson. You cannot pay a player more than 1/3rd of the salary cap and have him produce at such a mediocre level.

some of you guys kill me with how much you talk about Joe's money. ]

Listen JJ is our best player period. if we don't have JJ we are a lottery team or at best 8 seed. is JJ Wade, Lebron, or Kobe..... no. but they are 30 teams in the NBA. name me 5 players in the league right now that are better than JJ that can play both SG and SF.... oh JJ can play PG as well.

the fact of the matter is if you add JJ to any of the 30 teams they will be better. even Miami.
Wade, JJ, Lebron, Bosh, Joel Anthony.

so yes we had to pay JJ what we did. get over it. did JJ sleep with you're girl or something.

when Kobe was having a hard time first getting into the playoffs then advancing from 2004/05- 2006/07, did they trade Kobe because he made alot of money? no, they got him what he needed. Pau Gasol. and two years later they won the whole thing.

Know I am not trying to say JJ is as good as Kobe, but who is?, but when Kobe had Medvedenko then Kwame Brown as his starting center he was getting doubled and trippled all night long. and he looked bad out there. kind of like how JJ gets double and trippled. you see when JJ isn't doubled he goes off. get JJ a Pau Gasol or someone like that. Hell Move Horford and Marvin to the Lakers for Pau.

and then see what JJ can do.

ROFL are you seriously comparing a 30 year old Joe Johnson to a 28 year old Kobe ****ing Bryant? Joe Johnson has never ONCE made All-NBA Second, and in his 11 year career he's made the ASG a mere 5 times. He is significantly closer to a Michael Finley than he is to Kobe. And are you seriously comparing Slava and Kwame and the Lakers garbage all-around to a team that has Al Horford and Josh Smith? LULZ.

Then again, this is the same guy that thinks we should pick up Michael Redd and T-Mac and start them, what with Michael Redd's 4.4 PPG and T-Mac's 8.0 PPG.

[azuresou1]

No, I don't trust the ASG with anything. However, I DO trust that our franchise will be easier to sell to a competent owner once his contract is off our books.

If I'm Arthur Blanks, I'm not touching this franchise as is with a 20 foot pole. Once Joe Johnson gets shed? Then I'd be a lot more inclined to buy.

I think the main reason why our team won't appeal to some people is due to our poor regular season attendance, not because of Joe Johnson's contract. Being at the cap and being a true playoff contender is appealing no matter how much money Joe Johnson is making. Our core players are going to most likely stay here until the team is sold because without them it won't be as appealing.

I wouldn't pay for Hawks tickets either, when I don't know if they're actually going to play or lose by 35 to the Sixers because they can't be bothered. It's also kind of disingenuous to market Joe as our 'star' when even casual observers know that he really isn't. We're also not IMO a true playoff contender, I think even the most optimistic of us wouldn't have thought we'd make any serious impact.