Start a franchise - Shaq or Kareem?

[rrravenred]

... as long as there's a good mosque in your city...

[D.Brasco]

Which young center would you rather build around?

Kareem, at least with him, if things go well he stays.

It could be argued kareem screwed the bucks over worse than shaq did either orlando or la. Kareem requested a trade from milwauke and milwauke didn't get much at all back shaq left orlando as a free agent and i don't think i need to go over the whole laker situation and its specifics.

[Laimbeer]

Kareem would probably stay longer with your franchise so him.

Um, no.

Kareem won a title and forced his way out of Milwaukee.

I don't think either of these guys is long for a small market team without other star players.

[TrueLAfan]

[It could be argued kareem screwed the bucks over worse than shaq did either orlando or la. Kareem requested a trade from milwauke and milwauke didn't get much at all back ...

? Who told you this? Kareem worked with the Bucks and made sure they received very good compensation ... we're talking about two good young starters—Elmore Smith, a 25 year old cetner who had just averaged 11 and 11 with 3 blocks, and Brian Winters, who had just averaged 12 points a game as a rookie and would run off a string of 19-3-5 seasons. The Bucks also got the #2 and #8 picks in the draft. The mistake the Bucks made was to pick Dave Meyers at #2; he was a bust. But there's no question that the compensation they got for Kareem was quite good.

Look at it like this. PER and Win shares are far from perfect, but they give us a vague idea of player value. The two 1997 players whose age, Win Shares, and PER line up most closely with Elmore Smith and Brian Winters in 1976 are Vlade Divac and David Wesley. If Shaq had left Orlando, and Orlando had received Vlade, Wesley, the #3 pick and the #13 pick, I don't think there would have been so much blowback. That's decent return for an elite ballplayer.

[ronnymac2]

I'd lean towards Jabbar, simply because of the longevity. Shaq's longevity gets massively underrated imo, but he's still no KAJ in that category.

I think Shaq is a reasonable choice though.

[D.Brasco]

[It could be argued kareem screwed the bucks over worse than shaq did either orlando or la. Kareem requested a trade from milwauke and milwauke didn't get much at all back ...

? Who told you this? Kareem worked with the Bucks and made sure they received very good compensation ... we're talking about two good young starters—Elmore Smith, a 25 year old cetner who had just averaged 11 and 11 with 3 blocks, and Brian Winters, who had just averaged 12 points a game as a rookie and would run off a string of 19-3-5 seasons. The Bucks also got the #2 and #8 picks in the draft. The mistake the Bucks made was to pick Dave Meyers at #2; he was a bust. But there's no question that the compensation they got for Kareem was quite good.

Look at it like this. PER and Win shares are far from perfect, but they give us a vague idea of player value. The two 1997 players whose age, Win Shares, and PER line up most closely with Elmore Smith and Brian Winters in 1976 are Vlade Divac and David Wesley. If Shaq had left Orlando, and Orlando had received Vlade, Wesley, the #3 pick and the #13 pick, I don't think there would have been so much blowback. That's decent return for an elite ballplayer.

If shaq had forced his way out of orlando via a trade and Orlando received those players there would still have been a blowback both at the time and in hindsight. Forcing a trade due to personal reasons i.e. city not being cosmopolitan enough i think would aggravate quite a few people.

[Sedale Threatt]

Well, how was that significantly worse than Shaq leaving Orlando for L.A.? I'm sure Magic fans weren't doing cartwheels over losing a guaranteed Hall of Famer before he'd even hit his peak, regardless of the reason. And at least Milwaukee got something back. Orlando was left empty-handed, and it took them a good decade to recover from that.

[Doctor MJ]

Which young center would you rather build around?

Kareem, at least with him, if things go well he stays.

It could be argued kareem screwed the bucks over worse than shaq did either orlando or la. Kareem requested a trade from milwauke and milwauke didn't get much at all back shaq left orlando as a free agent and i don't think i need to go over the whole laker situation and its specifics.

Kareem made a private request for a trade that didn't get leaked. Best possible way to ask for a trade.

As TrueLA mentioned the Bucks most definitely got something in return, which certainly puts him one up on Shaq in Orlando.

Shaq in LA they got something back for, but you've also got to start thinking about what led up to the trade. The Lakers were in the midst of dominating the league when Shaq started screwing things up, and his attitude certainly played into the team's later disappointments.

The fact that Shaq has continued to be passed from team to team with him saying bad things about everywhere he's been makes it clear that this is simply a part of his personality. Dude's the world's largest drama queen.

[Doctor MJ]

... as long as there's a good mosque in your city...

+1, but we aren't in the 70s any more. I'll grant that it's not like there isn't racial tension now, but Kareem at the time was part of the first wave of blacks "turning" Muslim, and as a result when things turned violence involved people he was very close with.

It really was a freak scenario that it would be unreasonable to expect to happen if you were drafting him nowaday. And oh by the way, there is now a decent-size Muslim community in Milwakee and the Twin Cities, and the nations largest mosque is in Michigan.

[rrravenred]

It was facetiously intended, obviously, but that doesn't mean the situation can't recur. If a star player were gay and out (for example) and playing in in Salt Lake or Phoenix and requestsed a transfer to NY or LA you might see a similar situation (and I say that without casting aspertions on the managemnt of the Jazz or Suns)...

[LAKERS_1981]

If I could get 99-00 Shaq every year, it's a no-brainer. But Kareem's longevity and durability is awful attractive in comparison. Can't turn that down.

+1

[Doctor MJ]

It was facetiously intended, obviously, but that doesn't mean the situation can't recur. If a star player were gay and out (for example) and playing in in Salt Lake or Phoenix and requestsed a transfer to NY or LA you might see a similar situation (and I say that without casting aspertions on the managemnt of the Jazz or Suns)...

All true, but I'll take my chances.

[D.Brasco]

It could be argued kareem screwed the bucks over worse than shaq did either orlando or la. Kareem requested a trade from milwauke and milwauke didn't get much at all back shaq left orlando as a free agent and i don't think i need to go over the whole laker situation and its specifics.

Kareem made a private request for a trade that didn't get leaked. Best possible way to ask for a trade.

As TrueLA mentioned the Bucks most definitely got something in return, which certainly puts himone up on Shaq in Orlando.

Shaq in LA they got something back for, but you've also got to start thinking about what led up to the trade. The Lakers were in the midst of dominating the league when Shaq started screwing things up, and his attitude certainly played into the team's later disappointments.

The fact that Shaq has continued to be passed from team to team with him saying bad things about everywhere he's been makes it clear that this is simply a part of his personality. Dude's the world's largest drama queen.

There's no way a request like that would not be leaked in this day and age. Regardless of players received in return, kareem wanted to be traded because he did not like Milwaukee the city period. Be it for religious or cultural preference whatever something like that coming out today would put a huge target on a player in the public's mind.

Also isn't it laker fan revisionism to place all the blame on shaq in LA? I'm pretty sure Kobe played a huge part of that as well if I recall. My point is shaq had more legit reasons that kareem for leaving teams (at least in his prime) and didn't try to force trades.

[penbeast0]

Do a year by year comparison. Take the best years of Shaq and compare them to the best year's of Kareem. It'll be close for a few years, and Kareem will gradually pull away.

You'd have something like

Code: Select all

Kareem    Shaq
1971      2000
1972      2001
1976      1994
1974      1995
1980      1999


Close. Interesting. If you prorate Shaq's 1999 season for 82 games, they have similar numbers.

Code: Select all

          G    MPG   PPG   RPG  APG   FG%  FT%   SPG   BPG  REB%
Shaq     393  38.2  28.7  12.3  3.0  .581 .532  0.74  2.54  18.2
Kareem   408  41.5  29.2  15.0  4.4  .563 .710  1.27  3.68  17.9


Close, as you'd expect it to be. Kareem plays a little more and plays a little longer in each game. Scoring is close to a wash; so is rebounding. Kareem is a better passer, although Shaq was very good. Shaq is a slightly better FG shooter; Kareem is much better at the line. And Kareem is the better defender.

Accolades? Team success? Shaq won titles in two of those years. Kareem also won two. Shaq won an MVP in one those five years. Kareem was—wait for it—MVP in each of those seasons. Shaq made two second team All-D teams. Kareem made two first teams and two second teams.

I would go with Kareem here, but it's plenty close. And that's exactly how great Shaq is for me. His five best years are, at worst, slightly below five MVP years from an all-time great C.

But after this, Kareem pulls away. He pulls away for a pretty simple reaosn. Shaq didn't stay healthy or in condition. In his career, Shaq had seven seasons where he played at least 70 games...and this if you prorate 1999. (Technically, it's eight … but Shaq's in 2006 year with Phoenix was not one of his 10 or 11 best years. If you take Shaq's next six best years and put them up against Kareem's next best six, you might get:

Code: Select all

Kareem    Shaq
1977      2002
1973      2003
1979      1993
1981      2005
1975      1996
1978      1998


Kareem begins to pull away.

Code: Select all

          G    MPG   PPG   RPG  APG   FG%  FT%   SPG   BPG  REB%
Shaq     399  36.7  26.0  11.6  2.6  .578 .543  0.62  2.54  17.8
Kareem   445  39.1  26.9  13.2  4.3  .557 .737  1.09  3.26  17.5


Kareem plays about 11-12% more games, and is on the court about 8% more in each of those games. That adds up. It means that, in an average season, you've got your best player on the court for about 450 more minutes during the season. Figure it as 8-12 more games a year. It's a pretty big difference.

Shaq has titles in two of those years, and this is his leg up against Kareem. He's a slightly better FG shooter. Scoring and rebounding are more or less a push. And that means Kareem is the better free throw shooter, passer, and defender. And he's on the court 15%-20% more. He has two first team All-D and two more second team All-D selections; Shaq has a single second team selection. Shaq has a terrific MVP record; he finishes second once, and has three other top 5 finishes...and is in the otp ten in the other two years. It's great...but Kareem's record is better. Kareem won the MVP in 1977, was second in 1973, and was in the top 5 every other year of those six years.

And then there the rest of Shaq's career, compared to Kareem's other years through 1986.

Code: Select all

          G    MPG   PPG  RPG  APG   FG%  FT%   SPG   BPG  REB%
Shaq     415  29.5  16.7  8.8  2.0  .585 .518  0.60  1.74  17.4
Kareem   475  35.0  23.6  9.1  3.1  .578 .716  0.79  2.07  13.8


Shaq is a better rebounder now. And that, really, is it. Kareem scores more, shoots as well (with more range), can hit from the line, and blocks more shots. He plays 15% more (about 12-15 games a year), and is on the court almost 30% more in each game. He's still an outstanding defender; he makes two more All-D teams. He has four more years in the top 5 of MVP voting, and two years after that in the top 10.

This is leaving out Kareem in 1987, when he dropped off but was still a very good player (17.5-6.7-2.6 on 56% shooting).

So for the first five years, it's close. I'd rather have Kareem, but it's subjective. In the next six years, it's still pretty close...but Kareem is on the court markedly more and the defensive gap increases. And other than that, it's Kareem all the way. So I'd argue that

1) Kareem was about as good at his peak as Shaq was at his peak.
2) Kareem spent more years/time at his peak or near peak than Shaq did.
3) Kareem was still a really good player after his top 11-12 years; the gap between the players is clear.

If you want to factor college in, maybe you should: Shaq was a terrific college player. Kareem was one of the two or three best college basketball players in history. One of my favorite stories...when Kareem was a freshman in 1966, freshmen weren't allowed to play on varsity teams. The Bruins won the championship in 1965, and were the preseason #1. So the UCLA freshmen team played the defending national champions...and beat them, 75-60. The UCLA team was ranked #1 and were the defending national champions...and they weren't even the best team at their own school.

So, yeah, I'll go with Kareem here.

However, if you pace adjust for era, Shaq's per 36 start looking significantly better than Kareem's -- though the point about Kareem's and Shaq's durability is still very valid.

[Doctor MJ]

It could be argued kareem screwed the bucks over worse than shaq did either orlando or la. Kareem requested a trade from milwauke and milwauke didn't get much at all back shaq left orlando as a free agent and i don't think i need to go over the whole laker situation and its specifics.

Kareem made a private request for a trade that didn't get leaked. Best possible way to ask for a trade.

As TrueLA mentioned the Bucks most definitely got something in return, which certainly puts himone up on Shaq in Orlando.

Not my quote.

Shaq in LA they got something back for, but you've also got to start thinking about what led up to the trade. The Lakers were in the midst of dominating the league when Shaq started screwing things up, and his attitude certainly played into the team's later disappointments.

The fact that Shaq has continued to be passed from team to team with him saying bad things about everywhere he's been makes it clear that this is simply a part of his personality. Dude's the world's largest drama queen.

There's no way a request like that would not be leaked in this day and age. Regardless of players received in return, kareem wanted to be traded because he did not like Milwaukee the city period. Be it for religious or cultural preference whatever something like that coming out today would put a huge target on a player in the public's mind.

Also isn't it laker fan revisionism to place all the blame on shaq in LA? I'm pretty sure Kobe played a huge part of that as well if I recall. My point is shaq had more legit reasons that kareem for leaving teams (at least in his prime) and didn't try to force trades.

Perhaps it would be leaked today. Of course, a leaked request would still not make his actions anywhere near as damnable as what Shaq did.

Kareem only wanted to be traded because he didn't like Milwaukee? You need to spend some time researching what Kareem was going through at the time as a Muslim. If you have a rebuttal putting that in perspective we can talk more.

Revisionism? That's a weak statement. I've been saying this since well before Shaq got traded, and as everyone here will attest, I'm no Kobe homer.

[KobeMVPGOAT]

Kareem

[TrueLAfan]

However, if you pace adjust for era, Shaq's per 36 start looking significantly better than Kareem's -- though the point about Kareem's and Shaq's durability is still very valid.

Actually, I've been looking into the relationship between pace and primary scoring averages ... the connection seems tenuous at best. Main scorers aren't affected as much by reduced overall scoring, certainly not as much as pace differecne indicates. And I included Reb %, which equalizes between eras. (I'm leaving out that I truly belive that pace is a terrible, useless statistical metric.)

I'm not sure where to go on the Per 36 issue. It's a double edged sword., Shaquille O'Neal showed that he was able to play 38-39 mpg plus in his best years. Part of the reason he didn't do it regularly is because of his often poor conditioning. The other issue with Per36 numbers is that the person with more mpg to have those extra minutes compared to the replacement player, and that introduces all sort sof nuances and issues. In general, I wouldn't disagree that Shaq was a better scorer than Kareem ... I'd just say the difference is minimal (something around 1 ppg or less).