Does Dirk with title surpass KG

mysticbb · Post #81 » by **mysticbb** » Fri May 20, 2011 11:57 pm

Sedale Threatt, I didn't want to say that Nowitzki is equal to Barkley as a rebounder. To make it clear: Barkley is the better rebounder. He has the higher DRB% in the regular season and in the playoffs!

The differences in ORB% doesn't matter to me much in terms of evaluating the individual abiliities in terms of rebounding. ORB% is more dictated by playing style and coaching philosophy than by true individual rebounding abilities. For the Top100 players in DRB% in the history of the NBA the correlation coefficient to the ORB% is 0.13. That means that 87% of the variance in ORB% can't be explained by the variance in DRB%. Do you really think that those great defensive rebounders are just losing collectively their ability to rebound the ball only because it is the other side of the court?

Additional to that we have to keep in mind that in a sample from 1979 to 2010 we are seeing no correlation between ORB% and scoring margin. There is no positive impact by offensive rebounding in 32 years of NBA basketball in terms of winning games. Going back on defense seems to be the better way and more and more teams are doing it.

And we have a complete different view about what it means to be an elite rebounder. Barkley in his high efficient scoring seasons had 21.1 DRB%, that is NOT elite. Barkley in his later years had 27.0 DRB%, that is for sure elite rebounding. The difference is as big as the difference in terms of scoring efficiency for Barkley between the early and the later years. That's the reason the correlation coefficient is -0.64. A clear indication that there is a distinct difference between Barkley the high efficient scorer and Barkley the elite rebounder. You can dismiss that, but I showed the examples already.

Mattya · Post #82 » by **Mattya** » Sat May 21, 2011 12:09 am

When KG was in his prime he never had a player comparable to any of Dirk's teammates. He has had Steve Nash, Michael Finley, Jason Kidd, and Terry. I as a big fan of Sam Cassell in his all star season would take all those guys over Sam 10 times out of 10. KG with Steve Nash in his Dallas years would have been amazing. I couldn't imagine how many more assists KG would have gotten with Peja as a 6th man. I think people make more out of KG's failures in the playoffs then is really there. The talent around him was disgusting. Defensively KG is way better, passing KG is better, rebounding KG is better, scoring Dirk is better. I really miss watching KG from 2002-2005. He was amazing. Big Dirk fan though.

colts18 · Post #83 » by **colts18** » Sat May 21, 2011 12:23 am

Mattya wrote:When KG was in his prime he never had a player comparable to any of Dirk's teammates. He has had Steve Nash, Michael Finley, Jason Kidd, and Terry. I as a big fan of Sam Cassell in his all star season would take all those guys over Sam 10 times out of 10. KG with Steve Nash in his Dallas years would have been amazing. I couldn't imagine how many more assists KG would have gotten with Peja as a 6th man. I think people make more out of KG's failures in the playoffs then is really there. The talent around him was disgusting. Defensively KG is way better, passing KG is better, rebounding KG is better, scoring Dirk is better. I really miss watching KG from 2002-2005. He was amazing. Big Dirk fan though.

Peja is washed up. He had CP3 and still sucked. The guy is 1 dimensional. I would much rather have prime Wally Szczerbiak over Peja.

TheSheriff · Post #84 » by **TheSheriff** » Sat May 21, 2011 1:50 am

If Dirk wins a title:

Duncan>KG>>Dirk (with KG closer to Duncan, than Dirk is to KG).

Mattya · Post #85 » by **Mattya** » Sat May 21, 2011 2:11 am

colts18 wrote:
Mattya wrote:When KG was in his prime he never had a player comparable to any of Dirk's teammates. He has had Steve Nash, Michael Finley, Jason Kidd, and Terry. I as a big fan of Sam Cassell in his all star season would take all those guys over Sam 10 times out of 10. KG with Steve Nash in his Dallas years would have been amazing. I couldn't imagine how many more assists KG would have gotten with Peja as a 6th man. I think people make more out of KG's failures in the playoffs then is really there. The talent around him was disgusting. Defensively KG is way better, passing KG is better, rebounding KG is better, scoring Dirk is better. I really miss watching KG from 2002-2005. He was amazing. Big Dirk fan though.
Peja is washed up. He had CP3 and still sucked. The guy is 1 dimensional. I would much rather have prime Wally Szczerbiak over Peja.

I would take washed up Peja over prime Wally. I'm a wolves fan so I watched Wally a lot. He was always over rated. He couldn't defend at all, or dribble. He was also hurt a lot. He was pretty much a designated shooter. Sounds a lot like Peja. If I had to pick a designated shooter, it would be Peja every time.

JNelson43 · Post #86 » by **JNelson43** » Sat May 21, 2011 5:58 am

Interesting discussion.

From a perception standpoint, a ring would do Dirk a LOT of good. If the Mavs got to the Finals and beat the Heat, for example... the media and fans in general would find that way more impressive than Pierce/Allen/Garnett. People would see it as Dirk beating Lebron, Wade, and Bosh... the superteam. I'd say KG's peak was unquestionably higher than Dirk's peak, but beating the Heat would do so much from a perception standpoint... especially if the Heat accomplish what many expect them to accomplish in the coming years. Just winning a title probably wouldn't put him above KG in the eyes of the media, but beating the Heat could. Even if it happened Dirk would also need some more really good years, which shouldn't be a problem.

DirtyDez · Post #87 » by **DirtyDez** » Sat May 21, 2011 6:40 am

I think if you swap careers the same thing happpens,.

colts18 · Post #88 » by **colts18** » Sat May 21, 2011 7:29 pm

Mattya wrote:
colts18 wrote:
Mattya wrote:When KG was in his prime he never had a player comparable to any of Dirk's teammates. He has had Steve Nash, Michael Finley, Jason Kidd, and Terry. I as a big fan of Sam Cassell in his all star season would take all those guys over Sam 10 times out of 10. KG with Steve Nash in his Dallas years would have been amazing. I couldn't imagine how many more assists KG would have gotten with Peja as a 6th man. I think people make more out of KG's failures in the playoffs then is really there. The talent around him was disgusting. Defensively KG is way better, passing KG is better, rebounding KG is better, scoring Dirk is better. I really miss watching KG from 2002-2005. He was amazing. Big Dirk fan though.
Peja is washed up. He had CP3 and still sucked. The guy is 1 dimensional. I would much rather have prime Wally Szczerbiak over Peja.

I would take washed up Peja over prime Wally. I'm a wolves fan so I watched Wally a lot. He was always over rated. He couldn't defend at all, or dribble. He was also hurt a lot. He was pretty much a designated shooter. Sounds a lot like Peja. If I had to pick a designated shooter, it would be Peja every time.

Wally was a better player than Peja is. Look at these seasons for Wally:

02: 19-5-3, 51/46/83, 17.1 PER, All-Star
03: 18-5-3, 48/42/87, 17.3 PER
05: 16-4-2, 51/37/86, 17.1 PER
06: 20-5-3, 50/41/90, 18.1 PER

Those are some pretty good numbers.

CthulhuRedux · Post #89 » by **CthulhuRedux** » Sat May 21, 2011 8:45 pm

Mattya wrote:
colts18 wrote:
Mattya wrote:When KG was in his prime he never had a player comparable to any of Dirk's teammates. He has had Steve Nash, Michael Finley, Jason Kidd, and Terry. I as a big fan of Sam Cassell in his all star season would take all those guys over Sam 10 times out of 10. KG with Steve Nash in his Dallas years would have been amazing. I couldn't imagine how many more assists KG would have gotten with Peja as a 6th man. I think people make more out of KG's failures in the playoffs then is really there. The talent around him was disgusting. Defensively KG is way better, passing KG is better, rebounding KG is better, scoring Dirk is better. I really miss watching KG from 2002-2005. He was amazing. Big Dirk fan though.
Peja is washed up. He had CP3 and still sucked. The guy is 1 dimensional. I would much rather have prime Wally Szczerbiak over Peja.

I would take washed up Peja over prime Wally. I'm a wolves fan so I watched Wally a lot. He was always over rated. He couldn't defend at all, or dribble. He was also hurt a lot. He was pretty much a designated shooter. Sounds a lot like Peja. If I had to pick a designated shooter, it would be Peja every time.

Well, then...you're not too bright.

CthulhuRedux · Post #90 » by **CthulhuRedux** » Sat May 21, 2011 8:49 pm

http://www.backpicks.com/2011/05/18/hig ... on-part-i/

That article epitomizes the difference between Dirk and KG. Dirk is so pivotal to his team in ways that the box score never shows. The way he spaces the floor, the way both defenders stick to him on the pick and roll at the three point line. These things get others players EASY looks, but they don't show up as assists. Dirk's mere presence is greater than any other player on the offensive end. In the playoffs, Dirk has always been a monster and he takes over games like KG never has.

Dirk has had playoff games w/ a TS% of over 60% at a 44.2% rate vs. KG's 21.3% rate. That is a HUGE difference. Huge.

Mattya · Post #91 » by **Mattya** » Sun May 22, 2011 2:23 am

Wally was a better player than Peja is. Look at these seasons for Wally:

02: 19-5-3, 51/46/83, 17.1 PER, All-Star
03: 18-5-3, 48/42/87, 17.3 PER
05: 16-4-2, 51/37/86, 17.1 PER
06: 20-5-3, 50/41/90, 18.1 PER

Those are some pretty good numbers.[/quote]
Those are good Shooting numbers. Those numbers don't reflect the impact Wally had on the game. The guy was not good. He could shoot. That is it. You should also point out games played with "prime" Wally. He was hurt so often with achilles problems that you couldn't count on him one game to the next. Not only that when he did play he was slower than the Wolves center at the time, Ervin Johnson. The guy was unreliable. I believe that next to KG, Peja could put up better shooting stats. I would rather have the sixth man Peja then start prime Wally. This is all beyond the point that Dirk has had a lot better teammates.

prs · Post #92 » by **prs** » Sun May 22, 2011 6:06 am

I really don't get some points people try to make. Especially even trying to make supporting casts an argument. I bet 90% of fans would cry if their second best scorer was replaced with JTerry this year. 03-04 Sam Cassell is better than Terry/old ass Kidd/Finley and arguably nash in his dallas days.

I don't get how people can say he doesnt pass KG with a ring this year. Guy just swept the team Garnett struggled to beat with 2 other HoF's on his team that aren't washed up + a top5 pg and a good defensive C.

Not to mention if he wins this year hes gonna win it over a team with 2 top3 players on it, Garnetts celtics, 2 time champ lakers and a few young solid teams.

If the 2006 whistle fest never happens and he wins this year thats 2 championships that are more impressive than Hakeems 2 championships. But some how KG is greater still if he wins? People are overrating KGs defensive impact and underrating what dirk does for an offense.

Also got to love how players being on teams with certain players makes them better or worse. Peja on NO = trash CP3 has no help. Peja on Mavs = super awesome role player. The view on chandler isnt much different either funny enough.

G35 · Post #93 » by **G35** » Sun May 22, 2011 12:55 pm

prs wrote:If the 2006 whistle fest never happens and he wins this year thats 2 championships that are more impressive than Hakeems 2 championships. But some how KG is greater still if he wins? People are overrating KGs defensive impact and underrating what dirk does for an offense.

Also got to love how players being on teams with certain players makes them better or worse. Peja on NO = trash CP3 has no help. Peja on Mavs = super awesome role player. The view on chandler isnt much different either funny enough.

People like KG better than Dirk. So the standards will shift, perceptions will be modified to fit accepted beliefs. If anything contradicts accepted beliefs it will be dismissed or ridiculed.....

Post #94 » by **NO-KG-AI** » Sun May 22, 2011 3:51 pm

Dirk played like a pile of garbage last night and Dallas was running away with it in the WCF. No Timberwolf team could ever do that.

Mattya · Post #95 » by **Mattya** » Sun May 22, 2011 5:53 pm

G35 wrote:
prs wrote:If the 2006 whistle fest never happens and he wins this year thats 2 championships that are more impressive than Hakeems 2 championships. But some how KG is greater still if he wins? People are overrating KGs defensive impact and underrating what dirk does for an offense.

Also got to love how players being on teams with certain players makes them better or worse. Peja on NO = trash CP3 has no help. Peja on Mavs = super awesome role player. The view on chandler isnt much different either funny enough.

People like KG better than Dirk. So the standards will shift, perceptions will be modified to fit accepted beliefs. If anything contradicts accepted beliefs it will be dismissed or ridiculed.....

Just because some people believe a certain player sucks doesn't mean that that is everyone's opinion. I never thought Peja, or Tyson sucked when they were with NO. Terry and definately Nash were better than Sam. Not even close. Sam could only do two things. Shoot and post up smaller guards. Terry can at least run the court or attack the basket. It's a joke to even think Cassell was on the same level as Steve Nash when he was in Dallas. The timberwolves lacked the surrounding talent that Dirk has had. Cassell, Spreewell, Hassell, Wally, Hudson, Hoidberg, and Johnson or Terry, Barea, Kidd, Marion, Peja, Chandler, and Haywood. People tend to forget how good KG was. I'm guessing because he is a dbag, which I understand. I love Dirk but he wasnt a better all around player KG was.

Post #96 » by **NO-KG-AI** » Sun May 22, 2011 5:59 pm

Dirk is a better scorer than Tim Duncan too guys.

CthulhuRedux · Post #97 » by **CthulhuRedux** » Sun May 22, 2011 6:26 pm

NO-KG-AI wrote:Dirk played like a pile of garbage last night and Dallas was running away with it in the WCF. No Timberwolf team could ever do that.

They were running away with it in large part because the effect Dirk Nowitzki ALWAYS has on the court. The defensive attention paid to him is insane, which allowed for other players to get good looks. Dirk only had 3 assists (box score says 1...but he clearly had 3. I'm not sure if the OKC scorekeepers are bitter or just stupid) but he consistently (at least in the 1st half) made the right decisions, making the right passes which led to the right looks. JVG even noted this and did a feature on it. It amazes me how some people fail to pick up on subtle nuances of the game.

G35 · Post #98 » by **G35** » Sun May 22, 2011 6:42 pm

NO-KG-AI wrote:Dirk is a better scorer than Tim Duncan too guys.

For my evaluation KG's greatest strength is his biggest weakness. I can't think of anyone except Pippen who is more well rounded than KG. There isn't anything he can't do on the court. He can score outside and inside, elite rebounder, can pass, defend the perimeter and inside. He has the will, he has the attitude, he steps up when he has to for the most part. But for me he isn't really elite at any of those things. There are others that are better at those skills he has but he combines it all into one package.

If he were a lil bit more of a shot blocker, a lil bit more of an inside presence, a lil bit more of a post player, a lil bit more aggressive on the offensive end he would leap frog past some of the other all PF's imo.

Dirk isn't really that good a rebounder, he's ok about average, he's not a shot blocker at all, he's average at passing, not that great a ball handler, but he is elite at scoring. There aren't many that are better or more efficient at it than him.

I just think with KG he is going to need a really good scorer to go along with his all around abilities......

mysticbb · Post #99 » by **mysticbb** » Sun May 22, 2011 7:34 pm

CthulhuRedux wrote:They were running away with it in large part because the effect Dirk Nowitzki ALWAYS has on the court. The defensive attention paid to him is insane, which allowed for other players to get good looks. Dirk only had 3 assists (box score says 1...but he clearly had 3. I'm not sure if the OKC scorekeepers are bitter or just stupid) but he consistently (at least in the 1st half) made the right decisions, making the right passes which led to the right looks. JVG even noted this and did a feature on it. It amazes me how some people fail to pick up on subtle nuances of the game.

Well, I guess I saw a different game 3 then ...

CthulhuRedux · Post #100 » by **CthulhuRedux** » Sun May 22, 2011 9:33 pm

mysticbb wrote:
CthulhuRedux wrote:They were running away with it in large part because the effect Dirk Nowitzki ALWAYS has on the court. The defensive attention paid to him is insane, which allowed for other players to get good looks. Dirk only had 3 assists (box score says 1...but he clearly had 3. I'm not sure if the OKC scorekeepers are bitter or just stupid) but he consistently (at least in the 1st half) made the right decisions, making the right passes which led to the right looks. JVG even noted this and did a feature on it. It amazes me how some people fail to pick up on subtle nuances of the game.

Well, I guess I saw a different game 3 then ...

So you don't think the doubles and defensive attention were leading to open shots in the first half? I can give you 4 examples off the top of my head where it directly led to a basket.