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Andray Blatche - Resurgence Thread ( Merged )

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Re: Andray Blatche - Resurgence Thread ( Merged ) 

Post#781 » by Nivek » Tue May 24, 2011 6:11 pm

JonathanJoseph wrote:
Agree totally with your comments about Arenas and part of my desire to always add context to any analysis. Right now, Arenas is a bum and so it's easy to forget the positive qualities. Not too long ago, Deshawn Stevenson was the single worst player in the NBA and we had to give Haywood away to get Cuban to take on his contract. Similarly, Blatche had a mostly poor season and so it's easy for everyone to call him a bum too. Health and the right personnel situtation can do wonders for a player.

There is no doubt that Blatche has some major red flags and slicing and dicing the good and bad to the exact percentage of each seems slightly shortsighted to me. I am not arguing that the sample size is not small.

I am arguing that there IS a sample size. Despite what people seem to think, I do not think there is a long list of players who have put up those kind of numbers for even 10 games. Blatche's potential is substantial.


I'm actually checking on this 10 games thing. I'm curious to see if there's anything there. I can't think of a way to query the b-r database for this kind of thing, but Neil Paine (who writes the blog there) might know of something.

Personally, I believe that Blatche's talent is so substantial that his immaturity is hampering an already uphill climb to figure out how to harness that talent. Most players have to work hard. Blatche is both blessed and cursed to have it come so easily. It's not uncommon for people who grow up with a silver spoon in their mouth to have to learn what it means to work hard and this seems similar. When you can do everything, it's hard to learn what to focus on first and I have NO PROBLEM with it taking 100 games of rebuilding basketball to let him figure it out.


Here's where we part ways a bit. Most guys in the NBA had it "come easy" at least at some point in their basketball development. Generally speaking, the guys we see in the NBA were the best athletes in their areas at age 10, age 12, age 14, and so on. For some, that physical edge is gone in college. For others, they maintain until they hit the NBA. For freaks like Jordan or Lebron, the physical edge goes with age. Regardless, at some point the difference between scrub and starter, average and good, good and great is about the work a guy is willing to put in.

Blatche reached that point years ago. He's still there. Maybe he turns the corner this offseason. Maybe he finally figures it out. If I was running the team, I wouldn't expect it. It'd be great if he does it. I sorta think the catalyst for him "getting it" may actually be getting traded from the Wizards. If there's anything that finally gets him going.

Blatche's shortcomings are 100% mental and can be solved with maturity and leadership. When you combine his potential with his contract and age, the obvious conclusion is continued patience for at least another season. Trading a young player with rare potential after a bad season is the definition of penny-wise and pound foolish.


And here's why I disagree. He also has physical problems. They relate to the mental, but he lacks strength and stamina. If the mind changes, then presumably so will the body, but my point is that he still needs considerable work on the body. Also, it's no "a bad season." He's six seasons and ~8600 minutes into his career. I'm not basing my views on Blatche merely on what he's done lately. I'm basing it on his body of...well..."work" isn't quite the right word, but it'll have to do.
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Re: Andray Blatche - Resurgence Thread ( Merged ) 

Post#782 » by nate33 » Tue May 24, 2011 7:36 pm

The one thing Blatche has rarely experienced is genuine competition for the starting PF spot. I'm interested in seeing how hard he works in the offseason if we draft an offensive-minded PF at either #6 or #18.
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Re: Andray Blatche - Resurgence Thread ( Merged ) 

Post#783 » by miller31time » Wed May 25, 2011 3:13 pm

nate33 wrote:The one thing Blatche has rarely experienced is genuine competition for the starting PF spot. I'm interested in seeing how hard he works in the offseason if we draft an offensive-minded PF at either #6 or #18.


Wasn't he competing with Jamison for a few years? When we traded Antawn, a big selling point of the deal was Blatche's new-found home as our starting power forward.
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Re: Andray Blatche - Resurgence Thread ( Merged ) 

Post#784 » by jimij » Wed May 25, 2011 3:18 pm

I'd argue that Blatche was never competing with Jamison because no matter what he (or AJ) did, the coaches were NEVER going to play him over Jamison. They went the safe route by playing their "all-star".

That said, while I would hope that competition or maturity would be enough to get his head on straight, I fear that Nivek is right in that getting traded might be the only kick in the butt that actually gets through to him.
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Re: Andray Blatche - Resurgence Thread ( Merged ) 

Post#785 » by JonathanJoseph » Wed May 25, 2011 5:11 pm

jimij wrote:I'd argue that Blatche was never competing with Jamison because no matter what he (or AJ) did, the coaches were NEVER going to play him over Jamison. They went the safe route by playing their "all-star".

That said, while I would hope that competition or maturity would be enough to get his head on straight, I fear that Nivek is right in that getting traded might be the only kick in the butt that actually gets through to him.


RIght. And that's why I don't count much of what Blatche did before Jamison was traded.

Remember that Jamison's (cough, cough, uhhh) leadership (cough, cough) was to let Blatche know that he wasn't good enough to take his spot, that starts get automatic minutes that include being able to take any shot and take plays off on defense without repurcussion.

Remember that this line of thought was actually supported by the coaching staff until Flip came to town. Blatche was never allowed to take Jamison's minutes, even if in retrospect Blatche had probably already become the better player and if was in the franchise's best long term interests.
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Re: Andray Blatche - Resurgence Thread ( Merged ) 

Post#786 » by JonathanJoseph » Wed May 25, 2011 5:16 pm

Nivek wrote:
I'm actually checking on this 10 games thing. I'm curious to see if there's anything there. I can't think of a way to query the b-r database for this kind of thing, but Neil Paine (who writes the blog there) might know of something.


Would love to see that data. Thanks for checking.
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Here's where we part ways a bit. Most guys in the NBA had it "come easy" at least at some point in their basketball development. Generally speaking, the guys we see in the NBA were the best athletes in their areas at age 10, age 12, age 14, and so on. For some, that physical edge is gone in college. For others, they maintain until they hit the NBA. For freaks like Jordan or Lebron, the physical edge goes with age. Regardless, at some point the difference between scrub and starter, average and good, good and great is about the work a guy is willing to put in.

Blatche reached that point years ago. He's still there. Maybe he turns the corner this offseason. Maybe he finally figures it out. If I was running the team, I wouldn't expect it. It'd be great if he does it. I sorta think the catalyst for him "getting it" may actually be getting traded from the Wizards. If there's anything that finally gets him going.


Generally speaking, yes. But I'm not speaking generally.

Not everyone follows the same path or matures at the same pace and not everyone (even NBA players) have as much god-given talent as Blatche. Even when he got to the NBA, the game came easily to him and that's probably been more of a curse than a blessing (and I remember when Eddie Jordan said something along these lines)
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Re: Andray Blatche - Resurgence Thread ( Merged ) 

Post#787 » by Nivek » Wed May 25, 2011 5:25 pm

Well, shoot. Just got a message back from Neil at b-r, and he doesn't think he can do it. The streak finder could pull out consecutive games where some milestone was reached, but it can't find a stretch of games where a player's stats average a certain level. He might be able to program something, or do his own hunt, but isn't sure.
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Re: Andray Blatche - Resurgence Thread ( Merged ) 

Post#788 » by Spence » Wed May 25, 2011 5:56 pm

The Wizards played Antawn Jamison more than Andray Blatche for the simple reason that Jamison was a better player than Blatche.
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Re: Andray Blatche - Resurgence Thread ( Merged ) 

Post#789 » by Zonkerbl » Wed May 25, 2011 7:09 pm

Which is amazing, considering what a lousy defensive player Jamison was.
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Re: Andray Blatche - Resurgence Thread ( Merged ) 

Post#790 » by miller31time » Wed May 25, 2011 7:40 pm

JonathanJoseph wrote:RIght. And that's why I don't count much of what Blatche did before Jamison was traded.

Remember that Jamison's (cough, cough, uhhh) leadership (cough, cough) was to let Blatche know that he wasn't good enough to take his spot, that starts get automatic minutes that include being able to take any shot and take plays off on defense without repurcussion.

Remember that this line of thought was actually supported by the coaching staff until Flip came to town. Blatche was never allowed to take Jamison's minutes, even if in retrospect Blatche had probably already become the better player and if was in the franchise's best long term interests.


Blatche played behind Jamison because Jamison was a lot better than Blatche and deserved to get the starting nod and 35+ minutes per game. It wasn't some coaching conspiracy. It wasn't favoritism. It wasn't poor judgment.

If Blatche wanted to start for us, then he needed to play better, have good attitude and show consistency. From what I remember from those days, he did none of the above. Hell, from what I remember from a few months ago, he did none of the above.
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Re: Andray Blatche - Resurgence Thread ( Merged ) 

Post#791 » by miller31time » Wed May 25, 2011 7:41 pm

Spence wrote:The Wizards played Antawn Jamison more than Andray Blatche for the simple reason that Jamison was a better player than Blatche.


Whoops, posted before I skimmed down the page.

+1 Spence.
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Re: Andray Blatche - Resurgence Thread ( Merged ) 

Post#792 » by JonathanJoseph » Wed May 25, 2011 7:50 pm

miller31time wrote:
Spence wrote:The Wizards played Antawn Jamison more than Andray Blatche for the simple reason that Jamison was a better player than Blatche.


Whoops, posted before I skimmed down the page.

+1 Spence.


For the last season that Jamison was still on the roster (and possibly more), Jamison was not the better player IMO. For all the complaining people do about Blatche taking plays off on defense and shot selection, there was no player worse (except for Caron Butler) than Jamison in those categories.

As I said repeatedly at the time, Butler and Jamison were the problem and their influence is still a major problem in how Blatche, Young and McGee play today. It was Butler and Jamison who let these bad habits become deeply ingrained.

That being said, there was no reason that Blatche shouldn't have been getting minutes playing with Jamison, but Jamison's style of leadership was to constantly remind Blatche that he wasn't good enough, or as good as he was, rather than to boost his confidence.
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Re: Andray Blatche - Resurgence Thread ( Merged ) 

Post#793 » by Ruzious » Wed May 25, 2011 8:19 pm

JonathanJoseph wrote:
miller31time wrote:
Spence wrote:The Wizards played Antawn Jamison more than Andray Blatche for the simple reason that Jamison was a better player than Blatche.


Whoops, posted before I skimmed down the page.

+1 Spence.


For the last season that Jamison was still on the roster (and possibly more), Jamison was not the better player IMO. For all the complaining people do about Blatche taking plays off on defense and shot selection, there was no player worse (except for Caron Butler) than Jamison in those categories.

As I said repeatedly at the time, Butler and Jamison were the problem and their influence is still a major problem in how Blatche, Young and McGee play today. It was Butler and Jamison who let these bad habits become deeply ingrained.

That being said, there was no reason that Blatche shouldn't have been getting minutes playing with Jamison, but Jamison's style of leadership was to constantly remind Blatche that he wasn't good enough, or as good as he was, rather than to boost his confidence.

When he was traded, Jamison was - by far - the most efficient scorer of any rotation player on the team - even after imploding the last few games from over-use. Butler was absolutely horrible that season; Jamison was the only productive offensive player on the team at the time of the trade.
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Re: Andray Blatche - Resurgence Thread ( Merged ) 

Post#794 » by Nivek » Wed May 25, 2011 9:27 pm

Blatche and Jamison were pretty comparable in Jamison's final season with the Wizards -- at least when comparing Blatche as a starter to Jamison as a starter. Blatche shot more from the floor per minute; Jamison got to the line more frequently. Rebounding was a wash (9.1 per 40 for Jamison; 8.9 for Blatche). Blatche had more per minute assists, steals and blocks, but a lot more turnovers (3.6 to 1.5, per 40 minutes). Their efgs were comparable (.491 for Jamison; .487 for Blatche).

Jamison was more efficient offensively overall because he didn't turn the ball over. But Blatche as a starter was comparable to Jamison as a starter in Jamison's final season with the team. Of course, that was Jamison's 2nd worst season with the team (at least going by PER). It'd be a real stretch to suggest that Blatche was better than Jamison prior to that final season, however.
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Re: Andray Blatche - Resurgence Thread ( Merged ) 

Post#795 » by fugop » Wed May 25, 2011 11:49 pm

You can more directly compare Blatche and Jamison if you accept small sample sizes. The 5 man units data at 82games.com has a couple of lineups that are identical except for Blatche/Jamison.

Arenas/Stevenson/Butler/Jamison/Haywood played together for 110 minutes.

http://www.82games.com/0910/09WAS19.HTM

Arenas/Stevenson/Butler/Blatche/Haywood played together for 66 minutes.

http://www.82games.com/0910/09WAS20.HTM

The Jamison lineup was better than its opposition, the Blatche lineup worse.

I'm sure there were some other lineups that are directly comparable.
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Re: Andray Blatche - Resurgence Thread ( Merged ) 

Post#796 » by no D in Hibachi » Wed May 25, 2011 11:52 pm

Not that this has any relevance to the current Blatche discussion, but I love how Ryen A Russillo has been joshing "Andray Blatche, FOOL!" all season on his podcast. He's now put Blatche as his Twitter page avatar. Maybe all Blatche's time in the clubs is giving him some street cred?
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Re: Andray Blatche - Resurgence Thread ( Merged ) 

Post#797 » by closg00 » Sun May 29, 2011 11:56 am

Some sleazy behind the scenes stuff exposed in this law-suit doc involving Blatche and his former agent.
http://www.courthousenews.com/2010/11/2 ... Agents.pdf
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Re: Andray Blatche - Resurgence Thread ( Merged ) 

Post#798 » by MF23 » Sun May 29, 2011 1:16 pm

closg00 wrote:Some sleazy behind the scenes stuff exposed in this law-suit doc involving Blatche and his former agent.
http://www.courthousenews.com/2010/11/2 ... Agents.pdf


I know those are just accusations but that's just dirty.
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Re: Andray Blatche - Resurgence Thread ( Merged ) 

Post#799 » by no D in Hibachi » Sun May 29, 2011 2:25 pm

closg00 wrote:Some sleazy behind the scenes stuff exposed in this law-suit doc involving Blatche and his former agent.
http://www.courthousenews.com/2010/11/2 ... Agents.pdf

:nonono:
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Re: Andray Blatche - Resurgence Thread ( Merged ) 

Post#800 » by Illuminaire » Sun May 29, 2011 4:17 pm

I see that was filed in November... any idea how that turned out?

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