2010-11 Player of the Year thread

[NO-KG-AI]

Chris Paul was still better than both of them

[JordansBulls]

Lmao, at least back in the day when JordansBulls arguments were terrible, they were consistent. Now he's just a total flip flopper on his own crappy logic.

How so? I only voted a few guys #1 when they lost with HCA and that was mainly due to every other elite player losing with it. Example in 2004, the elite players were Garnett, Duncan, Kobe, Shaq and Jermain O'neal and all lost with HCA that year.

[NO-KG-AI]

So Rose has to go behind every player that didn't lose with Homecourt, by that logic, so he's clearly behind

LeBron(unless he loses)
Dirk
Wade
Durant
Paul

Basically, Rose can be top 5 if LeBron and Wade lose.... I love this game, lol.

[fallacy]

Chris Paul was still better than both of them

in terms of efficiency and advanced statistics, CP3 might have been the best player in the league this year. He just didn't put up the raw statistics to back it up

[sp6r=underrated]

[drza]

Chris Paul was still better than both of them

Leaning heavily towards agreeing.

[ronnymac2]

LeBron James is still clearly the POY for me. It's not really close. Something crazy would need to happen in the NBA Finals for LBJ not to be my POY.

The most interesting subplot of the Finals -- which may be hammered to death in this week's media cycle? -- is whether LeBron will guard Dirk and whether he can slow him down.

Not saying Dirk is a god -- I don't think too differently of him now than I did a month ago -- but he's a great offensive player who is really a matchup nightmare for the Universe. Seems like LeBron might have a CHANCE (maybe) to slow him down a little.

The other, slightly less sexy option, is that Miami just plays him straight up and rotates better and doesn't let other guys get high quality looks that Dallas has been producing for 3 rounds.

The less sexy option isn't really an option...if Miami doesn't do that, it's over. I explain how I believe the series will go here: http://ronnymacswire.blogspot.com/2011/05/nba-finals-2011-more-things-change.html

Essentially, it takes perimeter speed and length to close out on Dallas's peripheral perimeter players. The Lakers didn't have that anymore. OKC did have the length, but they got lazy on secondary breaks, partially because they turned the ball over a lot (well not because of, but that added to how many easy baskets Dallas could score...Dallas specializes in halfcourt play, so giving them quick, easy shots is begging for disaster).

Miami is diligent about getting back on defense; they barely attack the offensive glass, and they always have Wade or James back plus Haslem, a hustling big man. Chalmers and Bibby rarely have the ball or drive into the paint, so they are normally in position to get back as well. Miami can close out on Dallas.

The biggest variable is what happens after those closeouts. Can those Dallas players make good enough decisions? Can they act on those decisions?

[Doctor MJ]

@fallacy

As nonemus pointed out, there are statistical arguments that go both ways. I want to make clear though, the idea of "it's even more impressive when you consider Westbrook's ball hogging" cuts both ways.

Rose (and Westbrook) is an on-ball player, Durant is an off-ball player. Two different roles, that really shouldn't be compared simply by comparing stats apples-to-apples. I cut a player like Durant slack for not getting assists because of his role. It bothers me though when an off-ball scorer is passive, and some of Westbrook's "ball hogging" amounts to Durant not being more assertive.

We also need to factor in efficiency context. While I get annoyed when people say "The Bulls would have ZERO offense with Rose!", the reality is that whenever the Bulls offense breaks down, it's Rose who is expected to make something happen. Durant does not carry the same kind of burden in OKC.

Last part of the deal right now I think is that people are equating the two teams because they got knocked out at roughly the same point. They shouldn't do this. The Bulls had a brilliant season that got ended by a dream team that really is starting to come together. The Thunder was a 4 seed with a rep for not being able to hang with elite teams who got to the WCF by beating an 8 seed in 7 games with HCA.

While I was more impressed with Durant than Rose in the post-season, I have trouble seeing that as enough to overcome the regular season. And in the regular season, remember Durant was playing a slightly lesser role than the year before on a team with no major SRS improvement.

[JordansBulls]

So Rose has to go behind every player that didn't lose with Homecourt, by that logic, so he's clearly behind

LeBron(unless he loses)
Dirk
Wade
Durant
Paul

Basically, Rose can be top 5 if LeBron and Wade lose.... I love this game, lol.

No dude, come on man. I only said you wouldn't be first that year if you lost as the favorite. I said nothing about you not being in the top 5 if you lost wit it.
For instance, I voted Lebron 2nd in 2009 when losing with HCA. I voted Dirk 2nd in 2006 when losing with HCA. Voted Duncan 3rd in 2001 losing with HCA. Voted Malone 2nd in 1998 when losing with HCA. Voted Robinson 3rd in 1996 when losing with HCA. Voted Robinson 2nd in 1995 despite losing with HCA.

For now, Dirk, Wade, Lebron and Dwight are the top 4, don't know the order yet with Rose/Durant battling for 5th.

[Doctor MJ]

Then again, I wouldn't really say Rose stunk either. He simply got outshined.

That's an extremely generous assessment.

I'm not going to condemn the guy, as so many are doing. He's a great player who has a super-bright future. He ran into a fantastic defense, and he doesn't have anybody on his team who can chip in by creating his own offense. A day removed, I'll still consider him for the five spot.

At the same time, he did a lot more than get outshined. Dominique vs. Bird in 88 -- that's getting outshined. Rose, on the other hand, shot 33 percent on huge volume as his team blew four straight to a team they hadn't lost to all season.

And the coup de grace -- with HCA.

Fair enough. Dude got outshined by a LOT.

For me I think the thing is that when I watched the series I didn't think Rose's ineffective play was the story at all. The story was LeBron.

[Sedale Threatt]

Let's say he was "emphatically eclipsed."

Agree that the story was LeBron, but it wasn't the only one. Pretty high up on the list was the fact that Chicago lost (blew?) four straight winnable games as the league MVP died on the vine.

Of course, he needed more help. But that was a pretty spectacular prat fall.

[NO-KG-AI]

Dude, Rose played like crap, there is really no defense for him. Rose fires up bad shot after bad shot, and he's "being aggressive" but when someone like AI does it, he hates winning basketball and is a ballhog. Derrick Rose forced the issue when it was clear he was just beating his head against hte wall, and kept trying the same things over and over that weren't working, like dribbling around and trying to break down everyone one on one, and being ineffective at running the pick and roll with a handful of bigs that are all capable finishers on the pick and roll.

[Doctor MJ]

No Chris Paul for anyone? Why? PPG?

Make a case.

I thought he was statistically superior to Kobe, Rose, and Durant. Their PER's are all in the same ballpark(Kobe leads over Paul by .2), but Paul is tied with Rose for the best defensive rating(despite being on an inferior defensive team), and he dwarfs all 3 pretty substantially in offensive rating(he's 8 above the next closest, Durant).

He has the highest winshare rating of the bunch, despite being on the team with the least wins.

He has a substantial lead in on/off, and is the leader in adjusted +/-.

I thought he was pretty easily the best of the bunch in his short playoff run as well, dismantling LA without his second best player to the tune of 22 points, 6 rebounds, 11.5 assists, and his PER, TS% and offensive rating are all a fair bit ahead of even Dirk, who is being lauded as the next GOD.

I don't think he's player of the year, but given what Kobe and Rose have done in the post season, and the fact that they only have team record as their trump card, I thought he'd see more mentions.

I've got Paul at 7, below Rose & Durant, above Kobe.

To be honest, I felt torn on him all year. A lot of the time he looked brilliant, though obvious he went through stretches where he clearly wasn't himself. His +/- makes a case that he's as good as ever, but I just couldn't get passed the fact that he was taking on a less assertive role while his team's offense got worse than it had ever been since he'd hit his prime. This was a time his team really couldn't have really benefited from Paul putting them on his back.

I understand people wanting to put him ahead of Rose (Durant's trickier as he plays a very different role), but really did the whole "put'em on your back" thing and helped lead his team somewhere great. I don't think Paul could have done the same in the state he was in this year.

Of course Paul was awesome in the playoffs, but I don't let my opinion get swayed massively based on good play in a first round exit. I'll forget regular season injuries if a guy leads his team to the promised land, but as it stands, the Hornets end-of-season was defined by their regular season performance.

[Doctor MJ]

Dude, Rose played like crap, there is really no defense for him. Rose fires up bad shot after bad shot, and he's "being aggressive" but when someone like AI does it, he hates winning basketball and is a ballhog. Derrick Rose forced the issue when it was clear he was just beating his head against hte wall, and kept trying the same things over and over that weren't working, like dribbling around and trying to break down everyone one on one, and being ineffective at running the pick and roll with a handful of bigs that are all capable finishers on the pick and roll.

Re: AI. Pretty much no one talked about him as a loser when his team got eliminate during and near his MVP season. AI's rep come from watching many years him play and seeing his inability to adapt. Have patience, and give Rose the same opportunity to earn haters.

[Doctor MJ]

Let's say he was "emphatically eclipsed."

Agree that the story was LeBron, but it wasn't the only one. Pretty high up on the list was the fact that Chicago lost (blew?) four straight winnable games as the league MVP died on the vine.

Of course, he needed more help. But that was a pretty spectacular prat fall.

Sorry if you posted and I missed it: What's your ranking? Where do you put Rose relative to Durant, etc?

[Doctor MJ]

Nash was awesome this year -- glad to see him with some love here. My only reservations about Nash were that he basically fell apart at the end of the season physically. He shot 41% and averaged 10 ppg post all-star break.

Aldridge is another guy who was great -- pretty sure people should be taking a closer look at him. Seriously.

Yeah, every Nash supporter needs to look at his splits for this year. He was basically his prime self through the all-star break, and then fell off a cliff. He would be in my top 10 based on his pre-cliff play, but as it stands I can't do it. Here's hoping that whenever we the next season starts Nash will have more in the tank.

Aldridge I'm still trying to get a handle on. I can completely buy him being a pre-injury-Roy level player though.

[ElGee]

Dude, Rose played like crap, there is really no defense for him. Rose fires up bad shot after bad shot, and he's "being aggressive" but when someone like AI does it, he hates winning basketball and is a ballhog. Derrick Rose forced the issue when it was clear he was just beating his head against hte wall, and kept trying the same things over and over that weren't working, like dribbling around and trying to break down everyone one on one, and being ineffective at running the pick and roll with a handful of bigs that are all capable finishers on the pick and roll.

I have compared Rose to AI in a *positive* way all season. There's a lot of good in what Iverson did...

Similarly, this was Rose's first time at the dance. What was everyone expecting? 1999 Tim Duncan? Not against a defense like Miami with his teammates, I hope...

[Sedale Threatt]

Let's say he was "emphatically eclipsed."

Agree that the story was LeBron, but it wasn't the only one. Pretty high up on the list was the fact that Chicago lost (blew?) four straight winnable games as the league MVP died on the vine.

Of course, he needed more help. But that was a pretty spectacular prat fall.

Sorry if you posted and I missed it: What's your ranking? Where do you put Rose relative to Durant, etc?

I'm not sure yet. I know what I posted last night about sliding him out of my top five, but I thought Durant sputtered pretty noticeably -- again -- at times in the playoffs. I think I had Rose third coming in, and I wasn't among the outraged that he won the MVP.

Frankly, in a strange way his crappy play sort of illustrates just how important he was/is to the Bulls. I know defense was their meal ticket, but he's the only guy that can do anything for himself offensively. Without him, they withered down the stretch in four straight games against a team they swept in the regular season.

Does that make any sense?

At any rate, my top four is pretty concrete except for positioning. The last slot is down to Durant, Rose and Paul. It all depends on how much punishment Rose deserves for a truly awful performance, whether or not Durant made up any ground and how much credit to give Paul after (for him) a so-so regular season against a spectacular, but tiny, playoff sample.

[NO-KG-AI]

My problem wasn't that Rose played bad in the face of good defense, he just did a bunch of really dumb things and bailed Miami out a LOT. It's not like it was just Miami, he was doing really stupid things against Indy and Atlanta too.

[Sedale Threatt]

I thought he was solid-to-great in the first two rounds. Against Miami, though -- just ghastly. Respect to Miami's D, and the lack of support he got. But damn he was bad.